Know Your 'Rafale'

[Bahamut]

Nato doesn't run exercises based on invading Russia or China, invading either is basically impossible and against Nato's policy. Could you provide sources of the exercises that India and Pak run where they practice a nuclear attack and invasion of each others capital cities?

They do ,what are the latest drills in South China sea and near the Russian Kalingrad region are for ,no country will say these thing except for North Korea.Even the news article you quoted never said quoted a Russian official and it was a conclusion on many assumption they made that they planning a nuclear attack.It was a exercise, it no bid deal.

 

[smestarz]

Nato doesn't run exercises based on invading Russia or China, invading either is basically impossible and against Nato's policy. Could you provide sources of the exercises that India and Pak run where they practice a nuclear attack and invasion of each others capital cities?

Then NATO is really a mess if Russia decides to look at properties to its West..

 

[Superdefender]

Where is this thread going? 'Know your Rafale' to 3rd world war! Here is a fresh link to read (Posted on 14 Feb 2016).
http://www.stratpost.com/fighters-for-the-iaf-creating-paths-to-a-dead-end

 

[garg_bharat]

Nato doesn't run exercises based on invading Russia or China, invading either is basically impossible and against Nato's policy. Could you provide sources of the exercises that India and Pak run where they practice a nuclear attack and invasion of each others capital cities?

I have great difficulty understanding your statements. I guess American nuclear bombers that encircle Russia are carrying flowers??

The word "capital cities" is there only to confuse I guess.

Every military practices combat in urban environment, jungles, mountains, beaching exercises etc.

I understand that USA does practice nuclear attack. If a country has nukes, it is logical that it will practice how to deliver these nukes. I just do not see a surprise there.

NATO may not practice nuclear delivery (jointly) but NATO components who have nuclear weapons do such exercises individually.

 

[smestarz]

Nato doesn't run exercises based on invading Russia or China, invading either is basically impossible and against Nato's policy. Could you provide sources of the exercises that India and Pak run where they practice a nuclear attack and invasion of each others capital cities?

Then NATO is really a mess if Russia decides to look at properties to its West..

 

[smestarz]

Nato doesn't run exercises based on invading Russia or China, invading either is basically impossible and against Nato's policy. Could you provide sources of the exercises that India and Pak run where they practice a nuclear attack and invasion of each others capital cities?

Then NATO is really a mess if Russia decides to look at properties to its West..

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Not quite agreeing with the vision of modern Russia you express but thanks for support @wegweg .

You sure you don' t want to buy some Rafale too

I want one rafale of each type a b c m
To put in a museum

But don't have the money

Can you give them for free ?

 

[jackprince]

We sell the ships during Sarkozy mandate. A kind of Republican president.
We canceled the deal until Hollande mandate. A socialist president.
And between russia adopt a hard posture, with support to Ukrainia insurection.

I understand Sarko and Holland, because Poutine showed another visage.

Hmm... so much for reliability of French! IMO the cancellation Mistral deal should be a sign for MoD that French cannot be trusted. They cancelled the deal because of outside pressure, and scenario might change and they may fall for same pressure in case of India too.

India is a democracy just as yours and Russia. So, next time a Indian PM shows hard stance and you would cancel Rafale deal, is it? India may very well have to beat up pakistan in near future with a big stick, what would then Président de la République française would do?

 

[BON PLAN]

French can do what they want in weapons sales. EU has nothing to do or to say. The Mistral decision was taken without any pressure ... actually after the UKRAINE crisis, and just till a week prior to cancelling the deal the french president Hollande was confident of delivering the Two Mistrals to Russia, you can check the news yourself.
So, we have Ukraine crisis.. President Hollande says the two ships will be delivered as contracted.
We have countries like Poland banning russian products... President Hollande says the two ships will be delivered as contracted. .
Then one fine morning, He decides to cancel the deal...

In one psot, you more or less say that Hollande cancelled the deal because countries like Poland. Latvia etc feel Threatened by Russia and so France in order to protect these small countries of Europe, France cancelled the deal, and now you are saying that it was done without any pressure??? France is really too complicated to deal with.. I guess Russia and India both agree.

Such a decision can't be taken in one second !
Cost, law pursuit, forseen of russia-France relation ....

I was not in favour of such a decision (to stop the Mistral deal), but it was not easy to decide. And deal or no deal, some were intended to be angry against France....

 

[BON PLAN]

I want one rafale of each type a b c m
To put in a museum

But don't have the money

Can you give them for free ?

buy some pictures !
With Dassault, no money, no plane....

 

[BON PLAN]

Hmm... so much for reliability of French! IMO the cancellation Mistral deal should be a sign for MoD that French cannot be trusted. They cancelled the deal because of outside pressure, and scenario might change and they may fall for same pressure in case of India too.

India is a democracy just as yours and Russia. So, next time a Indian PM shows hard stance and you would cancel Rafale deal, is it? India may very well have to beat up pakistan in near future with a big stick, what would then Président de la République française would do?

OK.

Just remember Russia canceled a deal to sell S300 to iran ! some years ago (years before agreement on atomic program).
What are you saying to that?
You always trust in Russia ???

 

[jackprince]

OK.

Just remember Russia canceled a deal to sell S300 to iran ! some years ago (years before agreement on atomic program).
What are you saying to that?
You always trust in Russia ???

Well, Russia has proven track record when it comes to dealing with India. With rance, not so much. The delay in Scorpene, the outrageous $3 billion upgrade of Mirage fleet and the latest horse-trading with Rafale. France doesn't generate much confidence I would say.

 

[smestarz]

Such a decision can't be taken in one second !
Cost, law pursuit, forseen of russia-France relation ....

I was not in favour of such a decision (to stop the Mistral deal), but it was not easy to decide. And deal or no deal, some were intended to be angry against France....

Did you not say that the relationship of France with countries in Europe (specially the smaller countries) more important? than that with Russia (as its not part of EU and other countries are)

Such decisions cannot be taken in a second, or perhaps they can be, because the countries which ask France to cancel the deal are already considering the cost, law etc etc except maybe the relationship part. Even the French experts are doing the same at that point.. There are what are called "think tanks" which start to work when they foresee a situation developing so that they have the answer ready when the situation arises. This is called proactive approach, and most countries follow it, The other is reactive approach,, where they take a decision and then think of all the parameters later.. and few countries take such decisions.

 

[smestarz]

Very interesting post here
http://www.stratpost.com/an-alternate-theory-of-the-mmrca-process-i
http://www.stratpost.com/an-alternate-theory-of-the-mmrca-process-ii

I am sure a lot of people will debate this

 

[garg_bharat]

OK.

Just remember Russia canceled a deal to sell S300 to iran ! some years ago (years before agreement on atomic program).
What are you saying to that?
You always trust in Russia ???

We know that military deals are complicated and subject to political pressures. No surprise here.
It is a question of which government is easier to deal with. EU structure is complicated and the Indian government finds it very hard to get anything done with EU.

I hope it answers your question.

 

[garg_bharat]

Such a decision can't be taken in one second !
Cost, law pursuit, forseen of russia-France relation ....

I was not in favour of such a decision (to stop the Mistral deal), but it was not easy to decide. And deal or no deal, some were intended to be angry against France....

I do not think Mistral has changed much in India. It may have made the government more cautious, that's about it.

The difference in Russia and France is like this. Russia is like a cheap tourist hotel so you pay accordingly and expect lousy service. France is like a five star hotel where you pay top dollar but expect five star service as well.

So any disappointment for delay, non-delivery etc. will be much higher in the case of France.

 

[garg_bharat]

I want one rafale of each type a b c m
To put in a museum

But don't have the money

Can you give them for free ?

You can buy Chinese scale models. They have for every plane.

If EU breaks down as some expect now, and France runs out of money, then Rafale will sell for 1/3 of its current price. Could happen in less than five years. So patience is the key.

 

[Panjab47]

Mig 35, Tejas & sukhoi 30 sounds good.

http://bharatkarnad.com/2016/03/24/...o-and-related-iafs-rafale-push/#comment-25076
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The Rafale is so overpriced that other outstanding performance parameters get nullified. The same occurred with mirage2000 back in 1984.The contract envisaged an initial order of 40aicraft in flyaway condition & another 110 by HAL in Bangalore with transfer of technology but the MIg 29 was available at ₹5 crore to the Mirage2000s ₹ 10 crore apiece.

Since IAF brass doesn’t favor procuring SU30 MKI & would like a’ medium’ fighter jet,they would have to pick from the other contenders in MMRCA competition, 1)F16 IN 60 2)F.A 18 super hornet 3)Eurofighter typhoon 4) Gripen NG & 5)MIG 35.

Of these 5, F 16 is near obsolete & reached the peak of upgrade cycle, assembly lines soon be shut for no order.Plus American end user monitoring & the fear of sanctions, in the event of war with Pakistan ,which is a treaty Ally of the USA.

The FA 18 super hornet is primarily a carrier based platform, even the USAF doesn’t operate it. 7.5 g limitation reduces its maneuverability.

Eurofighter Typhoon was neck & neck with the Rafale on most technical parameters but was beaten in ’ life cycle cost calculations'(LCC). The other point is that there are just too many countries in the Eurofighter consortium that India would have to keep happy.

The Gripen NG makes a solid case for itself by virtue of it being so frugal to fly.The Brazilians calculated that it would cost just 4500 dollars for an hour of flying the Gripen as compared to 14000 dollars for the Rafale. In addition to this,the Swedes are promising to make in India by setting up a manufacturing facility in India,the blueprints of the same are also ready. They are assuring massive transfer of technology in the form of flight control laws,source codes,advanced production techniques the whole she bang & to sweeten it further,assuring help with Tejas mark 2 program (which will have the same engine as the Gripen).Performance wise too the Gripen is no slouch.Speed at high altitude is Mach 2 where as at low altitude it’s 1400 kmph.

Turnaround time is 10 minutes in A to A configuration & 20 minutes in A to G missions.It has a full digital cockpit with 3 multifunction displays(MFD) including 3D screens ,also features hands on throttle & stick(HOTAS) for superior situational awareness.It can carry a host of A to A missiles including Iris-1,meteore,sidewinder,AMRAAM,Derby & Python. A to G munitions include mkb2,mkb3,mkb4 bombs,laser guided bombs like GBU-12,advanced bombs like GBU49 etc.27mm all purpose Mauser 27 Canon provides A to A & A to G attack ability.

Gripen is fitted with a selex AESA radar system,IRST,passively listening advanced electronic warfare suite,litening3 laser designated pod(LDP),has a forward looking infrared sensor &CCD camera,it’s also fitted with a ground datalink called Rover.It’s engine is the GE F 414G rated at 98 kn,this enables the aircraft to fly at supersonic speed(supercruise)without use of after burners,thus saving fuel & reducing radar signature.

All in all the Gripen is a very impressive package at the estimated upfront cost of 75 million dollars.

Last but not the least there’s the MIG35 which is an advanced version of the venerable MIG29.It’s not in production yet but recent reports emerging in the media indicate that some aircraft have been handed over to Russian air force for conducting flight trials.

MIG35 is a highly manoeuvrable air superiority fighter with multirole abilities. It’s a 4++ generation fighter with some 5th gen technology thrown in for good measure.

It has improved avionics & weapon systems,notably the new Zhuk AE AESA radar & the uniquely designed Optical locator system(OLS) make it less dependant on ground controlled interception(GCI)systems & enables the fighter to conduct independent multirole missions.The Zhuk radar has 160 km air target detection range & 300 kms for surface ships,it can track 30 targets & engage 6 simultaneously.

Like a radar the OLS allows MIG35 to detect targets & aim weapon systems ,but unlike a radar the OLS has no emission ,meaning it cannot be detected.It can even detect USAF F-22 Raptor stealth war planes because it includes a complex of powerful optics with infrared vision ,that makes it impossible for any plane to hide from it.

The twin RD33MK engines produce 7% more power,fuel consumption is reduced by 50% & over haul time is increased by 100% due to better material usage.They provide 9000 kgf thrust ,are smokeless & include systems that reduce infrared & Optical visibility.

A truly revolutionary system is the all aspect thrust vectoring as opposed to 2 dimensional (horizontal/vertical) thrust vectoring on the SU30MKI.This enables the MIG35 to fly at very low speed without angel of attack limits & ensures that it will also remain controlled at zero speed & negative speed(tail forward) for sustained periods.

It’s length is 17.02 MTS,wing span -12mts,empty weight 11tons,max take off weight is 29.7 tons,thrust 2 × 88.3kn,ferry range 3100 kms,service cieling 17.5kms,combat radius 500kms,top speed 2.25 Mach.

Armament-1 GSH 30 Canon,missiles include R71+varients,R73+varients, bombs include KH31A&P,KAB500LL,KAB500T guided bombs, S-8S-13,S24,S250 unguided & laser guided bombs.

9 external hard points can carry 7tons of payload.It also has a variety of integrated defensive systems to increase survivability, 15 % carbon composite in the air frame reduces its RCS making it a partial stealth plane.

All this & then some for an upfront cost of approximately $50 million,makes the MIG 35 the most cost effective of the lot,throw in the AESA radar,OLS,all aspect thrust vectoring & partial stealth features & you have an incomparable package, more “bang for the buck”than any other equivalent aircraft can offer.The fact that the IAF has been operating MIG planes for around 50 years makes it all the more appealing.

For $9 billion the MIG Corp,which doesn’t have very many orders in hand,would probably move lock stock & barrel to India.If the IAF has a problem with the quality of HAL products, then a private entity like TATA,Reliance,L&T etc could be roped in to set up a state of the art facility to preempt any quality issues.

Don’t know what the IAF brass is trying to do ,chasing after a white elephant that the RAFALE is,when they can have a fearsome killer machine like the MIG35 for a fraction of the cost.

 

[wegweg]

That's a random opinion based on wrong data. The Gripen cost Brazil $150m and there is now way it costs $4500 per hour to fly, it will cost a bit more than an F-16 and much less than twin engine aircraft.

Very interesting post here
http://www.stratpost.com/an-alternate-theory-of-the-mmrca-process-i
http://www.stratpost.com/an-alternate-theory-of-the-mmrca-process-ii

I am sure a lot of people will debate this

I can't find any fault with that.

The point about the $12billion budget is interesting, its what the French want: all the money you have. Its like a mugger who just watched you take the money out of your bank and is now searching your pockets for every last cent.

36 aircraft is close to the original requirement for 40 Mirage-4000. Definitly some collusion between the IAF and the French.

If the Rafale was choosen from the start, the question why and does that descision still hold 15 years later? Was simply becuase someone likes the French? Or because the Rafale could something better?
Come 2018 there will be some significant alternatives, a complete assemly line for the F-18, a F-35 that will be cheaper (single engine..) and the Eurofighter with developed Air to Ground and AESA, even cheap Russian s***.

 

[smestarz]

That's a random opinion based on wrong data. The Gripen cost Brazil $150m and there is now way it costs $4500 per hour to fly, it will cost a bit more than an F-16 and much less than twin engine aircraft.



I can't find any fault with that.

The point about the $12billion budget is interesting, its what the French want: all the money you have. Its like a mugger who just watched you take the money out of your bank and is now searching your pockets for every last cent.

36 aircraft is close to the original requirement for 40 Mirage-4000. Definitly some collusion between the IAF and the French.

If the Rafale was choosen from the start, the question why and does that descision still hold 15 years later? Was simply becuase someone likes the French? Or because the Rafale could something better?
Come 2018 there will be some significant alternatives, a complete assemly line for the F-18, a F-35 that will be cheaper (single engine..) and the Eurofighter with developed Air to Ground and AESA, even cheap Russian s***.

Maybe you should read the full article in details then you can see clearly... where the original need was for single engine plane lower than 20 MT then is changed.. thats just one of the point