Know Your 'Rafale'

Tactical Frog

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The guarantee does not have to be sovereign. It can be a commercial guarantee.

India will be making fairly large milestone payments in this deal before any delivery happens. So a guarantee is not unusual.

Arbitration in india is not a problem. It is an Indian contract so that is perfectly logical.
Looking at the very interesting piece from Ajai Shukla in the

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-in-trouble-here-s-why-french-govt-is-shirking-liability-116031400548_1.html

it appears that Russia also declined to offer any kind of commercial guarantee for the Sukhoi M30 MKI.
Now of course Dassault is fully liable for the quality of the jets delivered from its factories, as well as the timeline of delivery. I have no reservation about this. It is just a matter of principle that it is Dassault who is responsible, not the French gov.
About arbitration in case of disputes .. this is a fairly well admitted principle that all arbitration procedures are done in a tier-party country like Netherlands or Switzerland. I see no problem with an Indian court arbitrating a dispute between Japan and Australia ! but this is a French- Indian deal.
If you ask me then what is the use of resorting to an IGA at all ... I will have to look at the IGA first .
 

Tactical Frog

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You should read about WW1 more in details, Honestly I am surprised that you are french at all,
By what logic do you really believe that German army which was at gate of Paris and bombing paris with big bertha were defeated? Maybe you should really read actual history rather than believe what they tell you in French news. During WW1, the jews who controlled much of finance in the world, came to an agreement with America that in order to save their investment they could not allow France and UK to lose, as their ivnetment would be lost. This brought in two things.. USA enters war on Allies side and the Jews in Germany stop helping the German war effort which was going German way.. And this backstabbing by the Jews during WW1 brought more to the hatred of Jews in Germany post 1933 when hitler came to Power. After the armistice was signed in 1918 the German army came back to Germany UNDEFEATED. Not a foreign soldier had kept a foot on German soil, Rather the Germans were camped a few miles outside Paris when armistice was signed..
This is the American contribution of WW1.. You thought the French and British defeated the Germans, were you taught this in history book? There was no mention of the "bad " germans attacking France during lunch time?

Do point me out to the battle in WW1 where the french army (or british army) pushed the germane over the biorder and then the Germans were suing for peace.. I am interested to read such information.
Okay after reading that kind of BS about the great Jewish conspiracy I swear that I never ever enter an historical discussion with you ... please take your lunatic rants away from this thread.
 

smestarz

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Looking at the very interesting piece from Ajai Shukla in the

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-in-trouble-here-s-why-french-govt-is-shirking-liability-116031400548_1.html

it appears that Russia also declined to offer any kind of commercial guarantee for the Sukhoi M30 MKI.
Now of course Dassault is fully liable for the quality of the jets delivered from its factories, as well as the timeline of delivery. I have no reservation about this. It is just a matter of principle that it is Dassault who is responsible, not the French gov.
About arbitration in case of disputes .. this is a fairly well admitted principle that all arbitration procedures are done in a tier-party country like Netherlands or Switzerland. I see no problem with an Indian court arbitrating a dispute between Japan and Australia ! but this is a French- Indian deal.
If you ask me then what is the use of resorting to an IGA at all ... I will have to look at the IGA first .
Few things here, India is already using Su-30 MKI for more than a decade, and with each year passing more domestic content is being put into Su-30 MKI. Thus Su-30 MKI is having more indian content, and its being produced in India. So in this case, Russian guarantees are irrelevant.

Now for Rafale, when the MMRCA was being discussed Dassault was asked to give guarantees and this was part of RFP also, but then later after Rafale was selected as L1, Dassault refused to give guarantees saying that how can it give guarantees about the planes that are assembled by HAL. Since all the tooling etc would have being done by Dassault, they should not have had that much hesitation, but rather Dassault seem to have something else in mind and refused to budge. Since the discussions were going nowhere, just prior to Modis visit to France they had a breakthrough, HAL was willing to give guarantees to Dassault who then would give corresponding guarantees to India. But then RFP was cancelled.

Now the 36 Rafales which were being discussed these are G2G, so between France and India and India does not interact with Dassault at all, Whatever the matter between France and Dassault is not Indian concern, since India would order it from French govt, its expected to have FRENCH GUARANTEES. But then the French are not willing to give any sort of sovereign guarantees, just personal guarantee of Hollande and the french expect Indians to be happy about it. So France can do the same way, they can take corresponding guarantees from Dassault and based on that give guarantees to India.. I think it should follow the same way as HAL - Dassault - India, but in this case Dassault - France - India.. what is that complicated?

also another is the price, the price at which we are getting Su-30 MKI is fraction of the price of Rafale, So similarly capable (or more capable plane in more instances) at much lower price, so if the french are asking higher price but not willing to give guarantees then I think they are really taking India for granted that India does not have any options other than Rafale. The French will soon be rudely awakeed
 

smestarz

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Okay after reading that kind of BS about the great Jewish conspiracy I swear that I never ever enter an historical discussion with you ... please take your lunatic rants away from this thread.
It is not a conspiracy theory dearie.. tell me. before Germans agreed for Armistice where were the Germans defeated? I mean were the french and british troops at gates of Germany? The German army was at the gates of Paris, with the then famous Big Bertha and the famous Paris Gun, bombing Paris.. So how actually did germans lose the War? as I said, I would be interested to have your views here,,,When the facts are put on table and you have no real points to put forth, this is what I do expect.. That being said, seems you really dont have content on this topic..
 

smestarz

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Told ya before MOD playing with ya. If ya want, laugh it away. Rafale will be very soon Rafail.
The French will soon start complaining for you saying Ra fail and claim it conspiracy of USA or everyone else in the world
 

garg_bharat

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Looking at the very interesting piece from Ajai Shukla in the

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-in-trouble-here-s-why-french-govt-is-shirking-liability-116031400548_1.html

it appears that Russia also declined to offer any kind of commercial guarantee for the Sukhoi M30 MKI.
Now of course Dassault is fully liable for the quality of the jets delivered from its factories, as well as the timeline of delivery. I have no reservation about this. It is just a matter of principle that it is Dassault who is responsible, not the French gov.
About arbitration in case of disputes .. this is a fairly well admitted principle that all arbitration procedures are done in a tier-party country like Netherlands or Switzerland. I see no problem with an Indian court arbitrating a dispute between Japan and Australia ! but this is a French- Indian deal.
If you ask me then what is the use of resorting to an IGA at all ... I will have to look at the IGA first .
When a stand is taken, it is due to is some reason. Rafale deal has become so complex because the experience with Scorpene has not been a happy one. I dislike everything to be written, because it is not possible that everything is forethought. A deal must be executed in a spirit of fairness and friendship. However it seems French took India for a ride in Scorpene, and many people think M2000 upgrade is too expensive.

It is not possible that India simply pays its defence budget to the French. Does not matter what Generals say. No political party will take such stupid decisions. (including Congress).

It is a very expensive deal, and who will sign if it is not watertight??

Comparing with Su30 does not help. Russians have a long history of industrial cooperation with India.
 

BON PLAN

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You should read about WW1 more in details, Honestly I am surprised that you are french at all,
By what logic do you really believe that German army which was at gate of Paris and bombing paris with big bertha were defeated? Maybe you should really read actual history rather than believe what they tell you in French news. During WW1, the jews who controlled much of finance in the world, came to an agreement with America that in order to save their investment they could not allow France and UK to lose, as their ivnetment would be lost. This brought in two things.. USA enters war on Allies side and the Jews in Germany stop helping the German war effort which was going German way.. And this backstabbing by the Jews during WW1 brought more to the hatred of Jews in Germany post 1933 when hitler came to Power. After the armistice was signed in 1918 the German army came back to Germany UNDEFEATED. Not a foreign soldier had kept a foot on German soil, Rather the Germans were camped a few miles outside Paris when armistice was signed..
This is the American contribution of WW1.. You thought the French and British defeated the Germans, were you taught this in history book? There was no mention of the "bad " germans attacking France during lunch time?

Do point me out to the battle in WW1 where the french army (or british army) pushed the germane over the biorder and then the Germans were suing for peace.. I am interested to read such information.
Be very careful when you speak about jews.... It's wich such argument nazis take germany in 1933....

It as another false news, coming from black media.....

The truth is :

The treaty of Brest -Litovsk leading to the surrender of Russia allows the German Army to focus on the west front but the failure of the german offensive in June and July 1918 and the allies reinforcement withdraw german hope of victory.
Since August, the German forces retreating in good order, but with heavy losses across the french front . In September , the german General Staff informed the emperor that the war is lost , but neither William II nor the military leaders want to take responsibility for the defeat

Starting in September, a series of offensives on the fronts of the East and Italy lead to the capitulation of germany's allies. The armistice on the eastern fronts create a huge gap that germany is not able to seal. Meanwhile, on the Belgian front Franco-Belgian troops launch an attack and sink the German front. The agitation grew up in the German troops and rear. On 28 September 1918, Erich Ludendorff and Hindenburg are the headquarters of the German Army in Spa, in view of the situation on the Western Front, they decided to organize the armistice.

On 1 October 1918, Erich Ludendorff sent a telegram to the Imperial Cabinet: "Send immediately a peace treaty. The troupe holds at the moment but the breakthrough can happen from one moment to another,

November 5, 1918, at 6 am, Maurice Hacot, inhabitant of Auchel and corporal assigned to the radio-telegraph center of the Eiffel Tower receives a Morse message sent to Spa in Belgium. This is the request for an armistice to the German General staff.

On 9 November, the Prince of Baden advises the Kaiser's abdication. This one goes into exile in the Netherlands. The next day, the new head of the German government, Friedrich Ebert, sign a pact with the leaders of his army and implore his representative in Rethondes to close negotiations without delay.

November 11, the armistice was signed.

******
Where have you seen any Jews intervention ? Another aspect of your last avatar : a SS commander ?
 

BON PLAN

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It is not a conspiracy theory dearie.. tell me. before Germans agreed for Armistice where were the Germans defeated? I mean were the french and british troops at gates of Germany? The German army was at the gates of Paris, with the then famous Big Bertha and the famous Paris Gun, bombing Paris.. So how actually did germans lose the War? as I said, I would be interested to have your views here,,,When the facts are put on table and you have no real points to put forth, this is what I do expect.. That being said, seems you really dont have content on this topic..
gates of paris ? Do know know the range of Great Bertha? 120kms. it's far gates my lovely Smerstarz.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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If India keeps asking impossible things like liability clause involving french gov ( ! ) or arbitration proceedings done in India ( ! ) in case of commercial dispute , this deal is going nowhere. I am not familiar enough with Indian bureaucracy but can someone explain to me what the Law Ministry has to do with arms deal ? Isn't it enough to have a Defence Ministry and a Foreign Affairs department involved ( for the IGA part) ?

Law ministry vets the agreement or the contract to ensure that the legalese is what is supposed to be

To ensure that what has been spoken will be incorporated in a written contract / language
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Nobody will give you this kind of guarantee, that is ridiculous. Even Russia declined to give you a guarantee for the SU-30 MKI.
So offer us Russian pricing

France had a problem.with HAL quality

They said we can't guarantee HAL products but we can guarantee dasault or dasault jv partner products

Now India is saying OK we are buying 36 flyaway directly from dasault now give us that guarantee

Si now why is dasault / grace shitting it's pants ?
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Because the GaN-equipped RBE-2AA is not in production yet!

Once the tech is implemented, all RBE-2AAs will receive the GaN upgrade eventually. That includes IAF Rafales.
Then it will cost extra over and above 500 million that is currently being talked about
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Looking at the very interesting piece from Ajai Shukla in the

http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-in-trouble-here-s-why-french-govt-is-shirking-liability-116031400548_1.html

it appears that Russia also declined to offer any kind of commercial guarantee for the Sukhoi M30 MKI.
Now of course Dassault is fully liable for the quality of the jets delivered from its factories, as well as the timeline of delivery. I have no reservation about this. It is just a matter of principle that it is Dassault who is responsible, not the French gov.
About arbitration in case of disputes .. this is a fairly well admitted principle that all arbitration procedures are done in a tier-party country like Netherlands or Switzerland. I see no problem with an Indian court arbitrating a dispute between Japan and Australia ! but this is a French- Indian deal.
If you ask me then what is the use of resorting to an IGA at all ... I will have to look at the IGA first .

See it has become a govt to govt deal

So french govt is.the third party

That is India deals with french govt and french govt deals with dasault

So if dasault defaults on its commitments then India can't tell anything to dasault

India will encash french guarantee and then french govt will recover the loss from dasault

In US this the way it works for FMS sales
US gives this kind of guarantee under FMS which is govt to govt deals with US
 

Tactical Frog

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See it has become a govt to govt deal

So french govt is.the third party

That is India deals with french govt and french govt deals with dasault

So if dasault defaults on its commitments then India can't tell anything to dasault

India will encash french guarantee and then french govt will recover the loss from dasault

In US this the way it works for FMS sales
US gives this kind of guarantee under FMS which is govt to govt deals with US
Hmm . That is just a whole new system for the French side ... I don' t think we've ever done business like this before. Hoping we can work something out !
 

garg_bharat

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Really? Who told you the price of how much Su-30 GaN upgrade will cost?
Can you cut this BS about Su30.

Get into your head that France and Russia are two separate things. None of your logic is going to work.

India already has some 240 Su30 and this is what protects the country today. India has ZERO Rafales.

MOD knows how much Su costs. It does not need your consultancy.
 
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garg_bharat

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@Gessler, a 19 year old, barely in college, no experience of anything, wants to advise government of India.

This is the beauty of posters on this message board.
 

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