Know Your 'Rafale'

gadeshi

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Sir, Yes, Sir....Totally understand your worries. But my amature brain says to me that We don't have to worry no one has the guts to attack us in the next 15yrs! That's why I am so ambitious and excited, Sir.
From my modest POW, AMCA looks not perfect at all. Starting from oversized, AD unfriendly tailplanes and ending with F-22 like MWBs, which have AD restrictions making supersonic delivery impossible on altitudes lower than 15km and speeds higher than 1500km/h.
It is a good field to work on, I can say.

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Superdefender

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From my modest POW, AMCA looks not perfect at all. Starting from oversized, AD unfriendly tailplanes and ending with F-22 like MWBs, which have AD restrictions making supersonic delivery impossible on altitudes lower than 15km and speeds higher than 1500km/h.
It is a good field to work on, I can say.

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From my modest POW, AMCA looks not perfect at all. Starting from oversized, AD unfriendly tailplanes and ending with F-22 like MWBs, which have AD restrictions making supersonic delivery impossible on altitudes lower than 15km and speeds higher than 1500km/h.
It is a good field to work on, I can say.

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Whatever....Are you indirectly saying that's why we should keep buying more Rafales instead of keep focusing on AMCA?
 

gadeshi

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Whatever....Are you indirectly saying that's why we should keep buying more Rafales instead of keep focusing on AMCA?
No. I will describe my thoughts later, because it is some large to write down.

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smestarz

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Photonic, not Phototonic.

The idea is to utilize photons instead of electrons, with the intention of expanding the scope of the EM spectrum that can be put to use for detection/tracking purposes.

It's a revolutionary tech and will take a LOT of time to mature.

Even the PAK-FA will remain operating the Tikhomirov N-036 AESA for atleast 10 years from the point of induction. GaN AESAs will stay relevant for a nice, long time. Well worth the money being put in.

Even the Super-Sukhoi upgrade will likely incorporate a GaN-based AESA, derived from MIRES family.
I did correct from Phototronic to Photonic later..Anyway thanks for correction..
GaN is a lot of money, but then if the Russians see the edge in using Photonic systems over GaN based systems, they are going to use it. BTW the russians expect to have it operational in 2018, this is FYI.
So, if the photonic systems have advantage over GaN AESA then the russians will go for Photonic systems and just use GaN fr systems as per buyers requirements.
If India is given option between PESA, GaN AESA or Photonic radar for Su-30 MKI, where you think might put its weight behind?
 

smestarz

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Whatever....Are you indirectly saying that's why we should keep buying more Rafales instead of keep focusing on AMCA?
Rafale is not actual fit for the requirements of IAF, as it will add one more type, and another logistical nightmare and add to it the exorbitant costs.

Solution simple as
A) Induct Tejas
B) Go for Su-30 MKI upgrades for Super Su-30 MKI status
C) As Tejas gets into service, form new squadrons, and then replace the MiG-21 and then MiG-27
D) Go for FGFA/PAKFA with all the goodies we can get
E) Go for development of Kaveri engine along with Eurojet or Genral dynamics making sure that we can sell the plane (with the engine) so any country.
F) Use Mirage 2000 as LIFT.
G) Replace the outdated Jaguars, Let some Su-30 MKI handle the roles of Jaguar and Mirage 2000 and let the Su-30 MKI taking this role be replaced by FGFA
H) Let AMCA take its time to develop, Replace Mig-29 and older Su-30 MKI with AMCA.

Thus slowly we reduce from the circus of IAF to 4 planes. Tejas, Su-30 MKI. PAKFA/FGFA and AMCA
 

Gessler

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GaN is a lot of money, but then if the Russians see the edge in using Photonic systems over GaN based systems, they are going to use it.
Then why are they developing N-036, FGA-29/35 and other MIRES family radars? Because money grows on trees?

GaN-based AESA is the way to go for the foreseeable future. ROFAR is a revolutionary development meant as the successor to these GaN systems.

BTW the russians expect to have it operational in 2018, this is FYI.
They expect to have a laboratory prototype operational by 2018.

This is FYI.

Testing of an actual airborne sensor will first be done on a non-combat airliner-type plane. That itself is a long way from lab testing. You have no idea of the complications involved, or what kind of tech we're talking about here.

Even developing a brand-new AESA radar takes longer than what you're saying. Photonic radar is at a whole different level. Even finding out exactly how Photons behave under active control at those ranges (300-400km) takes a helluva lot of research to validate.
 

smestarz

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Then why are they developing N-036, FGA-29/35 and other MIRES family radars? Because money grows on trees?

GaN-based AESA is the way to go for the foreseeable future. ROFAR is a revolutionary development meant as the successor to these GaN systems.



They expect to have a laboratory prototype operational by 2018.

This is FYI.

Testing of an actual airborne sensor will first be done on a non-combat airliner-type plane. That itself is a long way from lab testing. You have no idea of the complications involved, or what kind of tech we're talking about here.

Even developing a brand-new AESA radar takes longer than what you're saying. Photonic radar is at a whole different level. Even finding out exactly how Photons behave under active control at those ranges (300-400km) takes a helluva lot of research to validate.
They are doing it because the development of AESA is already done, and as i said Photonic radars will start coming from 2018 .... how many countries will opt for it, that remains to be seen.
So by that logic, and by most experts, the Mirage 2000 upgrade was more expensive than new Su-30 MKI
then its my question also does money grow on tress? and you come up with BS explaination that does not even come clsoe to reality

BTW interesting thing
Another Mirage 2000 crashed

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/14/uae-reports-plane-missing-in-yemen

Two Emirati pilots have been killed after their fighter jet crashed in Yemen, where a Saudi-led coalition is battling rebels backed by Iran.

The Mirage aircraft crashed at dawn “due to a technical fault”, said a coalition statement published hours after the United Arab Emirates reported one of its jets missing without giving details.

It is the first known case of an Emirati jet from the coalition crashing since the campaign against the rebels began last March

Anothe technical fault,,, now there are no wonder why the UAE want to dump Mirage 2000
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale is not actual fit for the requirements of IAF, as it will add one more type, and another logistical nightmare and add to it the exorbitant costs.

Solution simple as
A) Induct Tejas
B) Go for Su-30 MKI upgrades for Super Su-30 MKI status
C) As Tejas gets into service, form new squadrons, and then replace the MiG-21 and then MiG-27
D) Go for FGFA/PAKFA with all the goodies we can get
E) Go for development of Kaveri engine along with Eurojet or Genral dynamics making sure that we can sell the plane (with the engine) so any country.
F) Use Mirage 2000 as LIFT.
G) Replace the outdated Jaguars, Let some Su-30 MKI handle the roles of Jaguar and Mirage 2000 and let the Su-30 MKI taking this role be replaced by FGFA
H) Let AMCA take its time to develop, Replace Mig-29 and older Su-30 MKI with AMCA.

Thus slowly we reduce from the circus of IAF to 4 planes. Tejas, Su-30 MKI. PAKFA/FGFA and AMCA
So easy !
- Induct Tejas.... there is some work to do.
- PAKFA : not on squad before 8/10 years.
- Development of Kaveri : The world of military engine maker is a small world (2 US, 1 GB, 1 French, 1 russian,), with only one near the border (CHina). Im' not sure they will help you so easely and deeper as you want.
- Use Mirage 2000 as LIFT. How many twin seeters have india? India will have the best LIFT of the world....
 
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BON PLAN

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They are doing it because the development of AESA is already done, and as i said Photonic radars will start coming from 2018 .... how many countries will opt for it, that remains to be seen.
So by that logic, and by most experts, the Mirage 2000 upgrade was more expensive than new Su-30 MKI
then its my question also does money grow on tress? and you come up with BS explaination that does not even come clsoe to reality

BTW interesting thing
Another Mirage 2000 crashed

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/14/uae-reports-plane-missing-in-yemen

Two Emirati pilots have been killed after their fighter jet crashed in Yemen, where a Saudi-led coalition is battling rebels backed by Iran.

The Mirage aircraft crashed at dawn “due to a technical fault”, said a coalition statement published hours after the United Arab Emirates reported one of its jets missing without giving details.

It is the first known case of an Emirati jet from the coalition crashing since the campaign against the rebels began last March

Anothe technical fault,,, now there are no wonder why the UAE want to dump Mirage 2000
And? nothing new under the sun. Every fighters have some breakdown.

Even the best of the best : SU30 which evacuate automatically their pilots...

At least UAE use their french fighters (as french main battle tanks) in real operations in Yemen. Maybe uncle Sam don't give us the keys to use their beautiful F16-60 ....
 

Gessler

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They are doing it because the development of AESA is already done,
AESA is, but replacing GaAs with GaN is ongoing and so far only demonstrators of Phazotron FGA-series radars have been shown with GaN. Tikhomirov GaN AESAs (meant for both PAK-FA and Super-MKI) are yet to appear, although development has been going on for a long time and it's all mostly done.

and as i said Photonic radars will start coming from 2018 ....
This is why I don't like to get into arguments with children. :frusty:

" The developer of ROFAR, KRET has established a laboratory on radio photonics. The concern has already started to perform laboratory tests to create ROFAR. Designed to be finished in 4.5 years, the project remains on schedule, which was agreed on with the Foundation for Advanced Studies. "

" As was earlier reported by the Deputy CEO of KRET, Igor Nasenkov, the company intends to establish a full-scale sample of the future radar by 2018. "

http://sputniknews.com/military/20151230/1032493933/russia-aviation-pak-fa-radar.html

" A working model of the new radar, which is being developed by the Russian state-owned Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET) firm, should be presented by the end of 2018. "

http://rbth.com/defence/2016/01/21/...ighter-can-detect-any-stealth-aircraft_561275

Must I spell it out for you? KRET plans to have a working, functional prototype in their labs by 2018. After that the technology goes from there to agencies like Tikhomirov or Phazotron which will think about possible applications for the technology. No one is going to develop photonic radars just for one fighter. The technology will diversify into air, land, ship and even space-based applications. @gadeshi correct me if I'm wrong there.

If you think having a prototype of the radar in a lab is the same as integrating it on the PAK-FA in a combat fire-control role, I'm afraid you're a bigger idiot that I thought you were.

For e.g. check this out -

http://forum.keypublishing.com/show...-with-68-T-R-modules-at-MAKS-called-Epaulet-A

Tikhomirov unveiled a "working" AESA concept in 2005 but even as of today in 2016, an actual radar for fire-control applications on fighter is still being developed by them. Why? Because even after a prototype has been created, there will be much testing and re-testing, doing improvements along the way.
 
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smestarz

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So easy !
- Induct Tejas.... there is some work to do.
- PAKFA : not on squad before 8/10 years.
- Development of Kaveri : The world of military engine maker is a small world (2 US, 1 GB, 1 French, 1 russian,), with only one near the border (CHina). Im' not sure they will help you so easely and deeper as you want.
- Use Mirage 2000 as LIFT. How many twin seeters have india? India will have the best LIFT of the world....
Tejas induction just round the corner, so stop shaking in your pants,, there is nothing that France can do to stop it.

PAKFA. If we take PAKFA as it is, then few within the nexdt 5 years, IF we go for FGFA like we should that might take 7 years

True the world of military engines is very small but there are 3 US engine makers, 1 British, One french, and also there European consortium. Also there are 2 Russian engine makers NPO Saturn and Klimov.
There are already interest from GE and Eurojet and with 2000 odd engines that could be produced I am sure the potential is excellent. Previously India had approached SAFRAN but France had linked the development of the engine with Rafale deal.. So France is not really reliable or friend..
India as I understand has abt 10 twin seaters.. sure its better LIFT. at least that way it does not develop "technical issues" during actual combat. By the way, it seems that the plane that the UAE plane that crashed is newer Mirage 2000-9D... hilarious.. as I said, UAE knows they have to get rid of the junk sooner before it all crashes
 

smestarz

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And? nothing new under the sun. Every fighters have some breakdown.

Even the best of the best : SU30 which evacuate automatically their pilots...

At least UAE use their french fighters (as french main battle tanks) in real operations in Yemen. Maybe uncle Sam don't give us the keys to use their beautiful F16-60 ....
Well not really true, UAE knew it was going to happen soon, and so they were trying to sell the entire lot
Uncle sam has no reason to trust France, as a matter of fact many of the wars the Americans had to save the French.. WW1, WW2, Vietnam.. So you expect that the Americans always help the French when they are in trouble, and Americans to be grateful for french begging to help them out? You have a very funny sense of humour boy. Looks like a collective french logic..
 

gadeshi

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Well not really true, UAE knew it was going to happen soon, and so they were trying to sell the entire lot
Uncle sam has no reason to trust France, as a matter of fact many of the wars the Americans had to save the French.. WW1, WW2, Vietnam.. So you expect that the Americans always help the French when they are in trouble, and Americans to be grateful for french begging to help them out? You have a very funny sense of humour boy. Looks like a collective french logic..
The wars in which US has USed the French, you wanna say? :)

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dawingman

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so deal or no deal?
What if we simply buy more mig 29/35s and Su 30s ? In 12 billion we can get a lot of those aircraft, enough for few squadrons.
 

garg_bharat

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so deal or no deal?
What if we simply buy more mig 29/35s and Su 30s ? In 12 billion we can get a lot of those aircraft, enough for few squadrons.
I think Mig35 is not being considered. But Gripen - yes. F-16, F-18 are unlikely. The Swede may offer full transfer of tech.
 

sorcerer

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Rafale fighter Jet deal in trouble: Here’s why French govt is shirking liability

Around 2004, when the Indian Air Force (IAF) ordered some 40 additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters from Russia, India’s cabinet exempted Moscow from providing bank guarantees to cover “performance and delivery liabilities” for the new aircraft.

Russia had insisted on this exceptional waiver, given its strategic relationship with India and the Su-30MKI’s proven performance. In the years ahead, New Delhi was to regret not binding Moscow to specific liabilities, as the Su-30MKI consistently disappointed the IAF with availability rates of below 50 per cent.

Now, with New Delhi and Paris having inked an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) on January 25 for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters, France, like Russia in 2004, is resisting sovereign liabilities that would make the government of France, not just Dassault alone, responsible for delivery or performance shortfalls in the Rafale.

India’s defence ministry, like weapons buyers everywhere, insists on writing “liabilities” into contracts for defence equipment. These are usually backed by bank guarantees that New Delhi can encash if the equipment’s delivery or performance is not according to the contract. On Monday, Indian Express reported that the Ministry of Law and Justice has insisted on sovereign guarantees. But Paris, like Moscow earlier, wants to provide just a “letter of comfort”, the disparaging term for a written (but commercially un-enforceable) government undertaking to enforce the contract provisions.

Added to the already difficult negotiations over the Rafale’s cost, which the defence ministry considers exorbitant at Euro 11-12 billion, and wants to bring down to no more than Euro 9 billion, the disagreement over liability further complicates any early conclusion of the Rafale contract. Knowledgeable insiders speculate that New Delhi might be attempting to help reduce Dassault’s cost by shifting liability to the French government.

A bank guarantee would cost Dassault 3-4 per cent of its value, while a sovereign guarantee incurs no cost. Paris and Dassault have even earlier backed away from incorporating liabilities into the Rafale contract. In long-drawn and eventually fruitless negotiations between 2012-15 for 126 Rafales, Dassault had declined to accept liability for 108 fighters that were to be built in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

This was one of the thorniest issues that led to a breakdown in negotiations. “Usually, a written liability that binds the vendor company would prove adequate in a defence contract. However, since the French government has taken a leading role in pushing the Rafale contract, it should not back away from taking on liability”, says Amit Cowshish, a former financial advisor for defence ministry acquisitions.

According to the defence procurement procedure (DPP), an aerospace contract should involve a signing amount of no more than 15 per cent, another 70 per cent paid out in step with delivery milestones, and about 15 per cent retained for the warranty period to cover defects, if they arise.

Yet, the defence ministry has been paying as much as 20-25 per cent while signing the contract, and even paying out the 15 per cent warranty amount, satisfying itself with a bank guarantee for that amount. “Arms vendors and supplier countries are notoriously reluctant to accept liabilities written into contracts. However, it is essential for our defence ministry to demand these, so as to have a mechanism for enforcing multi-billion dollar contracts”, says SN Misra, a former defence ministry aerospace contracting veteran.

Interestingly, Washington follows an entirely different system for Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contracts, in which the US Department of Defense (Pentagon) concludes contracts with US arms vendors on behalf of the purchasing country. For purchases like the C-130J and C-17 Globemaster III, India has been depositing 40 per cent of the contract value into an escrow account with the US Federal Reserve. This serves as a “termination guarantee”, in case the buyer government unilaterally terminates the contract. The “liability” is negotiated separately between the Pentagon and the vendor company. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had requested French President Francois Hollande last April for 36 Rafale fighters on a “fast track” basis. In January, the two countries had signed an “inter-governmental agreement” during Hollande’s visit to India. Almost two months later, no contract is in sight.

http://idrw.org/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-in-trouble-heres-why-french-govt-is-shirking-liability/ .
 

garg_bharat

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So easy !
- Induct Tejas.... there is some work to do.
- PAKFA : not on squad before 8/10 years.
- Development of Kaveri : The world of military engine maker is a small world (2 US, 1 GB, 1 French, 1 russian,), with only one near the border (CHina). Im' not sure they will help you so easely and deeper as you want.
- Use Mirage 2000 as LIFT. How many twin seeters have india? India will have the best LIFT of the world....
1. Tejas will start coming in second half of 2016.
2. If agreement is signed, first plane in 2020 delivered from Russia.
3. India is happy with GE engines. GE has promised to set up a factory in India. So American engine. AMCA can use GE engine as well.
4. I doubt IAF is spending 3B on Mirage 2000 to use them as LIFT.
 
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garg_bharat

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Alternative to MMRCA:

1. Continue Su-30 production for 10 more years. That is 150 planes.
2. Buy 40 PAK-FA same as RuAF
3. Ramp up production of LCA Tejas. Already approved at 16 per year. Scope to increase to 30.
4. Hasten development of AMCA.
 

Superdefender

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1. Tejas will start coming in second half of 2016.
2. If agreement is signed, first plane in 2020 delivered from Russia.
3. India is happy with GE engines. GE has promised to set up a factory in India. So American engine. AMCA can use GE engine as well.
4. I doubt IAF is spending 3B on Mirage 2000 to use them as LIFT.
Remember Obama & Modi signed a deal for hot engine in last year January. AMCA will use most likely that hot GE 414 EPE engine. It has 12 blades instead of standard GE 7 blade. Where as EDE is basically for more durability. It increases only 3% thrust.
 

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