Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

There is a reason why HAL is being kept as far away from MMRCA Make in India program as possible. Parrikar knows about HAL's incompetence only too well. So the MoD under Parrikar is trying out something new : giving the private industry the chance as the lead integrator.

If this formula works for defence MII, then HAL can start counting it's days as India's premier aerospace company. In the next 10-15 years, we will see Tata Group & Reliance Industries rise as the major competitors in the Indian aeronautics space. That's another thing that the private industry will bring : competition. The lack of precisely which led to HAL's tomfoolery know no bounds.

If one looks at the long term (next 30 years or so), HAL is all set to be a pretty defunct organisation. Once the big private players get a foothold, they simply won't allow any space for stupid people and that's when agencies like HAL will start feeling the heat.

Picture what happened to BSNL.

HAL already has too much on its plate, Manufacturing Su-30 MKI, Tejas etc, Now one of the first ideas was to involve HAL to produce the MMRCA that would have served two points
A) just kept HAL involved in assembling planes
B) Keep away from producing Tejas.

But the the french did sort of realise that if rafale was purchased in numbers that might put an end to Tejas, so then they started to push for involement of Reliance (which has no experience in Aerospace industry) and asking that HAL not to be involved.. this inspiite that the french were singatories to RFP which clearly mentioned the role of HAL.

As of now,,, HAL is involved with Tejas, and may also involve in AMCA. Rafale... the "discussions" will go on and on.. no chance of contract... PAKFA/FGFA .. the next thing, that may not really go for HAL.. Personally i feel that PAKFA/FGFA will be with HAL (as the partnership between HAL and Sukhoi exists and AMCA which a new project might be asked for involvement of private companes)

Ultimately, in India only HAL has the experience to build planes, not other private companies and so when we just talk how Tata or reliance will start building planes,, one should ask.. are they really the right companies, what experience do they have in actually assembling a plane how much are the comfortable with top/cutting edge technology?

 

[smestarz]

I also have a feeling from earlier that MOD has a hidden agenda. It does not want overpriced Rafales. I think their plan is - Just sign for 36 planes first, then keep going round and round about price negotiation, both sides donot budge, 1 year pass, again negotiation continues, meanwhile French youth frustrated job not happenning, Parrikar does not budge now, France sweet talking, keep pressure all fail, still negotiate, more yrs pass, price ballooning, until MOD atlast cancell all 36 because they are now obsolete.

Not really that. MoD now actually doubts all the things IAF says. lets talk of all the facts
A) How often do you find the top brass of any country saying "we do not have weapons to fight" do they make that public announcement? Some do and for the right reason and that is to get what they want.. America does that, and now IAF are doing the same..
B) when the price discussions are being done, no side wants to appear weak, Dassault is not really getting the sales that they want, they are small players in the world market, but they can be so bold because they are in bed with IAF staff. Are the comments of IAF top brass like "we need only Rafale..." really the right comments to be made publicly when the prices are discussed? Its for any logical person to see through this charade.

Modi was adviced by the IAF top brass about how urgent the IAF requirement is, and then in his haste he went an made the announcement. IAF top brass had also given the same BS to defence minister, now since the def mi is technical guy he consulted some reliable ex-IAF officers and serving ones who have flown most planes and came to understand that , yes IAF is short of numbers and these are as MiG-21 are to replaced soon. Rafale is not he requirement of IAF, Su-30 MKI handles al the roles and further the new upgrades to Su-30 MKI and the further upgrade to Super Sukhoi status make it more capable.

So to summarise..
1. IAF wanted the Rafale to replace MiG-21, DM was clear to say Tejas will replace MiG-21 and not Rafale
2. IAF is talking how it needs a Medium MRCA.. they fail to inform that MiG-29 that they use is also MMRCA and we already have more than 50
3. The two front war theory.. that is a good theory, but what they do not really inform is that though IAF says that Rafale is superior to Su-30 MKI, they plan to put them on western sector against PAF. So how is that logical that a plane that claims to be superior than a plane would not be put by IAF to face that plane? Because IAF and MoD know that IAF is bluffing.
4. Nuclear strike role .. that can be handled by Su-30 MKI not an issue.
5. Some did say how expensive it might be for Su-30 MKI to fly and intercept a plane which Rafale will do cheaply.. thats another myth, the total LCC cost of Su-30 MKI, even after engine overhauls etc etc is much cheaper than Rafale..

Strangely to add, recently one frog did say that Indian navy might buy Rafale M because IAF will use Rafale and so that will help commonality of parts. but they sort of are oblivious to the fact that both IAF and Indian navy use MiG-29, So why would Navy buy Rafale which is a different plane and mess its own spare management? Add to that navy is already getting N-LCA.. thus the commonality of parts works for Rafale M if IAF buys Rafale, but that does not work when both IAF and IN use MiG-29 ? Thats basically Froggish theory.

The present focus of MoD is production of Tejas, they see it a way india can learn more about Aerospace and gain experience. we shall not be gaining experience assembling French scrap.
India will most probably go with Eurojet for development of Kaveri engine, which might be used on AMCA and LCA II

Buying Rafale or more Su-30 MKI will not help our self reliance and not specially French scrap, Why does it make sense to buy 4th Gen over rated french scrap when 5th Gen is already available for us? Rafale does not bring anything cutting edge..Its old tech.. which was great 5 years ago. Is IAF preparing for future war or 1999 Kargil war?

PAKFA is not also the final solution for India but yes, it brings cutting edge to our forces against potential threat of J-20 and J-31 which the chinese have lead in already. Thus to counter them and to at least have a par, we need PAKFA/FGFA. Considering that AMCA is a decade away, PAKFA in few squadrons are what we require to counter the Chinese and it works with IAF two front theory..Also get LCA in big nos as that might bring up the squadron strength that IAF has been complaining about

 

[Superdefender]

In 2002-2005, even 3 sqdn. of Rafales would have been nice. But now, hm.......in future, no way. And if production starts now for 36planes, last plane will be delivered in 2030. Mr. Parikar, please use your IITian metalurgy mind!!

 

[Gessler]

HAL already has too much on its plate, Manufacturing Su-30 MKI, Tejas etc, Now one of the first ideas was to involve HAL to produce the MMRCA that would have served two points
A) just kept HAL involved in assembling planes
B) Keep away from producing Tejas.

But the the french did sort of realise that if rafale was purchased in numbers that might put an end to Tejas, so then they started to push for involement of Reliance (which has no experience in Aerospace industry) and asking that HAL not to be involved.. this inspiite that the french were singatories to RFP which clearly mentioned the role of HAL.

As of now,,, HAL is involved with Tejas, and may also involve in AMCA. Rafale... the "discussions" will go on and on.. no chance of contract... PAKFA/FGFA .. the next thing, that may not really go for HAL.. Personally i feel that PAKFA/FGFA will be with HAL (as the partnership between HAL and Sukhoi exists and AMCA which a new project might be asked for involvement of private companes)

Ultimately, in India only HAL has the experience to build planes, not other private companies and so when we just talk how Tata or reliance will start building planes,, one should ask.. are they really the right companies, what experience do they have in actually assembling a plane how much are the comfortable with top/cutting edge technology?

When we talk about Reliance/Tata, we are talking about playing the role of the "lead integrator", which I've already mentioned.

Now if Tata and much smaller companies like Dynamatic can be well-regarded Tier-1 suppliers of components (even airframes) to manufacturers like Sikorsky, Airbus, Boeing etc. There is absolutely no reason why they cannot manufacture components of Rafale on a industry scale.

Plus, not everything will be done by one company. The electronics will be the responsibility of other agencies, the engines of another, and so on. Tata, SAMTEL, Dynamatic, Astra Microwave, and a lot of other companies will be involved. Reliance could play the role of lead integrator.

The "experience" argument is bullshit. A little-known company like Dynamatic that only recently got into aerospace business can manufacture components of far greater quality, on schedule and within budget. HAL is a nitwit in comparison.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ong-road-to-make-in-india-116020101156_1.html

On the other hand :

http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/boeing-ends-contract-with-hal/110345/

The reason why HAL is so downtrodden is because unlike the private co.s', HAL is hardly a profit-driven venture. Whether they perform well or not does not matter because Govt. will keep funding them without question. Plus there is no competition. That's a perfect formula for incompetence.

Given adequate tech-transfer and sharing of production knowledge, any company can start churning out components & airframes from the get-go. That's why & how 10 years ago, private participation in aerospace was about nil but today, components for aircraft like Lockheed C-130J, C-130, C-130J-30, Airbus A310, A320, A330, Sikorsky S-92, Boeing CH-47, P-8I/A and soon Bell 407GX, Pilatus PC-12NG, Dornier-328, Boeing AH-64E etc. will be made in India. All by private companies.

Plus Tata is already going ahead with it's plans for making C-295W transports in India. And if Indo-Russian MTA is cancelled, you can basically count on Tata buidling not just a production line but also a regional MRO center for C-130J/XJ aircraft.

Add Rafale to that list whenever you please.

 

[Tactical Frog]

In 2002-2005, even 3 sqdn. of Rafales would have been nice. But now, hm.......in future, no way. And if production starts now for 36planes, last plane will be delivered in 2030. Mr. Parikar, please use your IITian metalurgy mind!!

SuperDefender, I respect your right to not share French enthusiasm about the Rafale ( which we consider second to none in the world, except F-22 in the air superiority realm) . But at least give credit to Dassault to be able to deliver 36 planes in short delays .. where does that 2030 timeline come from ? Dassault is ready to deliver up to 3 planes a month starting from 2018 ... providing a deal can be inked very shortly. Not going to start building frames for planes without a customer .

 

[Gessler]

The delivery date is entirely dependent on contract signature. If it's finalized soon, deliveries can be faster than anyone would expect.

I'm afraid I can't comment on the French production line's details though, @BON PLAN @Tactical Frog and people like @halloweene and Picdelamirand-oil are best at that.

" By late 2019 the last of the (36) Rafales will arrive if the contract is inked by this June. "

- Prasun K. Sengupta

 

[Tactical Frog]

Know your Rafale ! or not

http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/3699-dassault-demands-rs-90000-cr-rafale-india-won-t-give


Dassault demands Rs 90,000 cr for Rafale, India won’t give in
By KANISHKA SINGH | NEW DELHI | 12 March, 2016

India is not willing to pay over Rs 65,000 crore for the 36 jets in fly-away condition.
High-level Indian and French defence negotiators have failed to arrive at a consensus on the pricing of the 36 Rafale jets that India is supposed to purchase from Dassault Aviation, with the French manufacturer refusing to quote anything lower than Rs 90,000 crore for the aircraft. When the Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) met at the North Block in the national capital on Wednesday afternoon, the Indian side was not willing to go beyond Rs 65,000 crore to buy the 36 jets in fly-away condition, said sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The French manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, on the other hand, asked for Rs 90,000 crore. Ministry sources said that Dassault is not willing to bring the price down, but has added some incentives in terms of support and spares in its new proposal.
A top source in the MoD, who is a part of the PNC and is, thus, privy to the development, told this newspaper, “The Defence Minister (Manohar Parrikar) is playing hardball. Obviously, the French have quoted an obscene amount of money for these planes. We are clear that we will not be bullied into buying overpriced jets. We are the ones who are buying. We will decide what to buy and how much we want to pay. They want around 12 billion euros for the jets. We have told them that we will not give you more than 8 billion euros. Negotiations are on, but we have not been able to come to a compromise.”
The source also added, “The minister is not willing to pay over the top. A strong lobby is pushing for the deal to be signed soon. They are trying to create some urgency in government circles and in the public. They are hoping that this will put pressure on the hasty signing of the deal, without much bargaining. The minister has made it clear to the acquisition committee that if the French do not give in to our price demands and stay adamant then we may look into other options.”
A compromise could not be reached on the price during the visit of French President Francoise Hollande in January. “That is why the deal was stalled,” said the MoD source.
Meanwhile, Eric Trappier, chairman of Dassault Aviation said that they were in the “final phase” of the negotiation and were working towards setting up a “real partnership” with Indian industry, instead of the usual offset that requires investments in unrelated sectors.
The Rafale is a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). According to the proposed deal, a total of 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will be delivered to India in fly-away condition. These jets will be equipped with high-end weapons systems, array radars, beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapons systems, among other features. The deal also includes a long-term support and maintenance package with Dassault, with provisions of upgrade.
The Indo-French High Committee meeting, which was scheduled for 9 and 10 March was chaired by Defence Secretary G. Mohan Kumar. Defence industry, research, technology transfer and procurement were the key areas of focus of the meeting. The parties discussed the status of several defence deals between the two countries, including the Short Range Surface to Air Missile joint development deal. “During the meeting, the French delegation gave an amended proposal to the previous one. We are assessing it and will get back to them shortly,” said the source.

 

[Superdefender]

@Tactical Frog & @BON PLAN, Ha ha ha, see the negotiations will keep going like this. MOD is playing with Dassault, not the other way around. Laugh at me all you can.... But the quesion remains - Can Dassault get third buyer in form of India? Ha ha ha,,,,keep dreaming.

 

[Tactical Frog]

@Tactical Frog & @BON PLAN, Ha ha ha, see the negotiations will keep going like this. MOD is playing with Dassault, not the other way around. Laugh at me all you can.... But the quesion remains - Can Dassault get third buyer in form of India? Ha ha ha,,,,keep dreaming.

We will see who will have the last laugh !

€ 12 billion for 36 jets ... hmm, I got to admit, that is a stellar price ! Maybe includes pre-payment for future upgrades.

 

[Superdefender]

We will see who will have the last laugh !

€ 12 billion for 36 jets ... hmm, I got to admit, that is a stellar price ! Maybe includes pre-payment for future upgrades.

Yes, that includes missiles, spares, upgrades, etc., but no ToT.

 

[smestarz]

It interesting this "media communications" hasnt Eric Trappier opened his trap before a few years back and said that the contract would be signed in weeks? He thought he had india all figured out..
MoD has covered all its bases and yes DM is in control of the situation. The potshot comments from IAF top brass are actually getting counter productive both for the deal and for population. The Indian population now seems to be getting more interested in whats going on, and feel that IAF just wants something which is too expensive and have ignored the assets that are already with them.. Slowly IAF is now being the new "police" where people look at your uniform as it looks nice, but just sort of calling them "crooks"

 

[smestarz]

Know your Rafale ! or not

http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/3699-dassault-demands-rs-90000-cr-rafale-india-won-t-give


Dassault demands Rs 90,000 cr for Rafale, India won’t give in
By KANISHKA SINGH | NEW DELHI | 12 March, 2016

India is not willing to pay over Rs 65,000 crore for the 36 jets in fly-away condition.
High-level Indian and French defence negotiators have failed to arrive at a consensus on the pricing of the 36 Rafale jets that India is supposed to purchase from Dassault Aviation, with the French manufacturer refusing to quote anything lower than Rs 90,000 crore for the aircraft. When the Price Negotiation Committee (PNC) met at the North Block in the national capital on Wednesday afternoon, the Indian side was not willing to go beyond Rs 65,000 crore to buy the 36 jets in fly-away condition, said sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The French manufacturer, Dassault Aviation, on the other hand, asked for Rs 90,000 crore. Ministry sources said that Dassault is not willing to bring the price down, but has added some incentives in terms of support and spares in its new proposal.
A top source in the MoD, who is a part of the PNC and is, thus, privy to the development, told this newspaper, “The Defence Minister (Manohar Parrikar) is playing hardball. Obviously, the French have quoted an obscene amount of money for these planes. We are clear that we will not be bullied into buying overpriced jets. We are the ones who are buying. We will decide what to buy and how much we want to pay. They want around 12 billion euros for the jets. We have told them that we will not give you more than 8 billion euros. Negotiations are on, but we have not been able to come to a compromise.”
The source also added, “The minister is not willing to pay over the top. A strong lobby is pushing for the deal to be signed soon. They are trying to create some urgency in government circles and in the public. They are hoping that this will put pressure on the hasty signing of the deal, without much bargaining. The minister has made it clear to the acquisition committee that if the French do not give in to our price demands and stay adamant then we may look into other options.”
A compromise could not be reached on the price during the visit of French President Francoise Hollande in January. “That is why the deal was stalled,” said the MoD source.
Meanwhile, Eric Trappier, chairman of Dassault Aviation said that they were in the “final phase” of the negotiation and were working towards setting up a “real partnership” with Indian industry, instead of the usual offset that requires investments in unrelated sectors.
The Rafale is a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). According to the proposed deal, a total of 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will be delivered to India in fly-away condition. These jets will be equipped with high-end weapons systems, array radars, beyond-visual-range missiles and defensive weapons systems, among other features. The deal also includes a long-term support and maintenance package with Dassault, with provisions of upgrade.
The Indo-French High Committee meeting, which was scheduled for 9 and 10 March was chaired by Defence Secretary G. Mohan Kumar. Defence industry, research, technology transfer and procurement were the key areas of focus of the meeting. The parties discussed the status of several defence deals between the two countries, including the Short Range Surface to Air Missile joint development deal. “During the meeting, the French delegation gave an amended proposal to the previous one. We are assessing it and will get back to them shortly,” said the source.

Rafale news and Eurofighter photo???

 

[smestarz]

We will see who will have the last laugh !

€ 12 billion for 36 jets ... hmm, I got to admit, that is a stellar price ! Maybe includes pre-payment for future upgrades.

I think you best start laughing when you have the time, as soon there might not be the opportunity to do so..

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

What is interesting is
Now

11billion euros is only for 36 rafales in flyaway cilondition

The support is costing extra IE 5 - 10 years long maintainance is extra cost
They are throwing in couple of years support as extra incentive

So this price does not include support and neither as was being said about by rafale lobby & fanboys

Also MBDA has said in separate press release that weapons are going to cost extra

Insane

 

[Tactical Frog]

Rafale news and Eurofighter photo???

Glad you noticed too .. at least they did not spell Rafale Rafael in the legend.

 

[garg_bharat]

Glad you noticed too .. at least they did not spell Rafale Rafael in the legend.

You are too young but I like your posts. I think there is a problem with Europe that it has got addicted to free money (or money coming out of thin air). Europe has got technology but it is no longer competitive except high tech goods. This makes the economic base very narrow.

I have said this here two years back, and I say it again. Science is not a slave to any race or country. All humans have similar intelligence. As Asia develops, Asia is likely to reclaim its economic clout as it existed before industrial revolution in Europe, when India exported 25% of all exported goods in the world.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think Rafale is simply waste of time for India. The empire has a tradition of messing with the Indian mind. Unfortunately enough Indians (specially in position of power) always fall for it. The elite of India have a weird fascination for Western goods, to the point of absurd.

 

[garg_bharat]

I like Russian tactics. They could not match aviation technology of West, so they focused on missiles. Russian missiles are very good, no way inferior to West.

So Russians are saying, fine, we will still shoot your planes down, if only with our missiles.

Obviously SAM trucks cannot fly, so this technique is not very good for offensive purposes, but still decent for defense. India can do the same. Forget Rafale. Invest the money saved in SAM programs.

 

[Tactical Frog]

You are too young but I like your posts. I think there is a problem with Europe that it has got addicted to free money (or money coming out of thin air). Europe has got technology but it is no longer competitive except high tech goods. This makes the economic base very narrow.

I have said this here two years back, and I say it again. Science is not a slave to any race or country. All humans have similar intelligence. As Asia develops, Asia is likely to reclaim its economic clout as it existed before industrial revolution in Europe, when India exported 25% of all exported goods in the world.

Japan and now South Korea with Samsung certainly proved that Asia isn't inferior technologically to Europe and USA. I am still waiting for seeing much innovation coming out of China .
Looking at India I see no reason why it should not walk on the same path as Japan for achieving technological excellence. You have already reached excellence in the information technology.

 

[Tactical Frog]

As mentioned by @Gessler sometime ago Dassault is already working on several upgrades. To which extent these upgrades are included in the current negotiation is an interesting question.

PEA Incas - GaN upgrade for the AESA radar
TRAGEDAC - Offboard sensor-fusion for passive targeting solutions (Spectra upgrade)
MELBAA - Conformal radar arrays
DEDIRA - a VLO version of Rafale. Achieved through airframe-shaping as well as much-improved Active Cancellation of incoming radar waves

In short, there is over 30 years worth of growth potential in the Rafale. So relax.