Know Your 'Rafale'

[Jangaruda]

LOL. And on what is this opinion of your's based upon?

My opinion is based on the fact that we r still nowhere close to agreeing on the price of the aircrafts... Nd remember the mrca was initiated as a stop gap measure to replace the Mig 21s while the tejas enters service... The original requirement was a single engine fighter.....

 

[BON PLAN]

You can keep dreaming french frogs India deal not going to happen,
By the way seems the French came up with "attracttive" package but unfortunately the French do not really seem to understand the game at all.. India does not really want to buy Rafales now... they have just failed. India is eyeing the PAKFA and FGFA because of few things and the main one being MAKE IN INDIA.
So you can dream all you want and have a nice sleep.. by the way, do you remember when rafale was declared L1... how many years back? Keep counting ...

Your opinion count for nothing in the Rafale deal.

It took 22 years for india to ink Hawk deal....

Rafale was declared L1 at the beginning of 2012. 4 years. Nearly nothing on the indian scale of time.

 

[BON PLAN]

PAKFA will be operational for Russian air force next year, but we are getting new prootypes for our testing which we shall then be suggesting the modifications.. the path will be very same as Su-30 MKI
did you notice that when the deal is actually failing, that time IAF top brass suddenly sees the signs and comes up with statements about MMRCA type of plane... Now the official statements say MMRCA type plane, and less of Rafale being used.. get the signal? We are going to get PAKFA which will be humping Rafale dry Alreaddy Su-30 MKI did it.. then PAKFA can do it even with a blind pilot ... Keep your scrap in France,
By the way, are you owned by an Britisih guy that you always have to show british flag? To ashamed to be french??

ah ah ah.... PAK FA operational next year? BS my dear smerdetarz. with one or two sample?

Russia announced next days it cut back defense budget by 5%.... and in december India and Russia agreed to cut T50/PAKFA budget. You understand well it will impact planning, and not in the good sens. not good news.

 

[BON PLAN]

Those days have gone past, and with now HAL set to produce Tejas in numbers, And for you to understand
Français sont chiant leur pantalon

After all no more orders for French planes, Rather Tejas might actually be more attractive to buyers who are eying the Failed french plane..Should be interesting, with the Israeli avionics and maybe future Indian engien...

You write french largely worst I write german.... It doesn't mean nothing. Try with another french if you want.

Google translate has reach its limits !

 

[smestarz]

Your opinion count for nothing in the Rafale deal.

It took 22 years for india to ink Hawk deal....

Rafale was declared L1 at the beginning of 2012. 4 years. Nearly nothing on the indian scale of time.

So you still have 18 more years..relax..
The difference that you do not see in the two deals is.. Hawk is one of the best AJT in the world, and India had to take it, there were very few options. But on other hand, for Twin engine" plane like Rafailure there ae lot of options and India has seen most of the options during the competition. They also have the likes of Su-35S that can be offered as and when India wants. So French do not have a leverage in India at all, Specially when the new Defence minister is both knowledgable and fully in Control.. Do you see Modi giving any statements?
It is nice move by India to "keep on negotiating" with the french and at the same time to get our own domestic product on lines. Also there is the PAKFA/FGFA projject.. By the way, since this year PAKFA should be produced for Russia, And we are to get different prototypes as per our requirement for testing for make in india as FGFA...
We already are looking at truly 5th gen plane, why should really want Ra--Failed again.
By the way.. maybe after 5 more years, we could buy Rafale,, we shall need an intermediate jet trainer, for pilots to use before they go to fly on PAKFA.. so wait for another 5 years please.. And yes, each time we whistle, make sure Drian runs to india with his leash in his mouth... we love it when he does that

 

[Gessler]

Translated from French thanks to PARIKRAMA & Picdelamirand-oil

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/dassault-evoque-un-contrat-de-90-rafale-made-in-india.N383381

Dassault is negotiating for a contract of 90 Rafale "make in India"
By Hassan Meddah - Updated March 10, 2016, at 5:59 p.m. - PublishedMarch 10, 2016, at 5:44 p.m.

The manufacturer put on an additional 90 Rafale contract with India beyond the initial negotiations for the purchase of 36 aircraft. However, a dampened optimism about the delay of over two years for its business jet, the Falcon 5X following the difficulties encountered by the engine manufacturer Safran.

Two Rafale of the French Air Force - Credits: Pierre Monnier

48 Rafale sold to Egypt and Qatar have boosted the 2015 results Dassault Aviation . The aircraft manufacturer has announced a net profit of 482 million euros, an increase of over 20% for a turnover of 4.2 billion. This corresponds to the delivery of eight Rafale and 55 Falcon business jets.

The group also benefited from the good performance of the group Thales, held at 25%. This participation has boosted its adjusted net income to € 189 million.

Rafale side, the manufacturer is still as enthusiastic. While he believes very close to signing the contract for 36 aircraft in India , CEO Eric Trappier spoke very openly talks for an additional order for 90 additional Rafale.

The industrial base is even already in the study. "Today, there is the price negotiated for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare an order for 90 additional aircraft" , says leader . The industrial device associated with such a contract would be well advanced. "We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of " Make in India ". Beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle India with our partnersSafran , Thales and part of our subcontractors. We are looking for Indian partners to manufacture in India, " explains the director.

According to him, the data has changed from the conditions of the 2012 agreement which involved 126 aircraft and eventually had never successful. This time, the French aircraft manufacturer is ready to take responsibility for the aircraft produced on Indian soil to the extent that it has the ability to choose its subcontractors.

++

36 flyaway purchase (prince already finalized) plus initial Make in India component of 90 aircraft.

36 + 90 = 126, which was the original MMRCA requirement for Air Force. And one can rest assured that eventual IAF numbers will reach 189 (126+63) which was already mentioned years ago.

And Navy orders of Rafale-M for IAC-2 carrier will be on top of that.

 

[Gessler]

Excerpts :

"We have conveyed our concerns to the government. Government is seized of this problem and the reason why the government signed the 36 aircraft (Rafale) on G2G basis is because of urgency that they felt because of the depletion in squadron numbers," Dhanoa, a Kargil war veteran said.

Asked if there is a requirement for more Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) type aircraft besides the 36 Rafales, he said yes.

"There are various avenues that are being explored. There is a requirement for us to buy a MMRCA class aircraft more than the 36 numbers that we have signed. Which platform may come in, that is something between us and the government. We (both) will have to take a call," he said.

Deputy Chief of the IAF Air Marshal R K S Bhadauria said that a decision on more aircraft will be take only after the conclusion of the contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Asked how many more MMRCA type aircraft is the IAF looking at, Bhadauria said he would not like to go into numbers.

"I am not going into numbers. MMRCA, you are aware of total numbers (126 fighters). We are getting 36 out of that. So there is a leftover there and we will take a rather holistic view of overall numbers," he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[smestarz]

Translated from French thanks to PARIKRAMA & Picdelamirand-oil

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/dassault-evoque-un-contrat-de-90-rafale-made-in-india.N383381

Dassault is negotiating for a contract of 90 Rafale "make in India"
By Hassan Meddah - Updated March 10, 2016, at 5:59 p.m. - PublishedMarch 10, 2016, at 5:44 p.m.

The manufacturer put on an additional 90 Rafale contract with India beyond the initial negotiations for the purchase of 36 aircraft. However, a dampened optimism about the delay of over two years for its business jet, the Falcon 5X following the difficulties encountered by the engine manufacturer Safran.

Two Rafale of the French Air Force - Credits: Pierre Monnier

48 Rafale sold to Egypt and Qatar have boosted the 2015 results Dassault Aviation . The aircraft manufacturer has announced a net profit of 482 million euros, an increase of over 20% for a turnover of 4.2 billion. This corresponds to the delivery of eight Rafale and 55 Falcon business jets.

The group also benefited from the good performance of the group Thales, held at 25%. This participation has boosted its adjusted net income to € 189 million.

Rafale side, the manufacturer is still as enthusiastic. While he believes very close to signing the contract for 36 aircraft in India , CEO Eric Trappier spoke very openly talks for an additional order for 90 additional Rafale.

The industrial base is even already in the study. "Today, there is the price negotiated for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare an order for 90 additional aircraft" , says leader . The industrial device associated with such a contract would be well advanced. "We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of " Make in India ". Beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle India with our partnersSafran , Thales and part of our subcontractors. We are looking for Indian partners to manufacture in India, " explains the director.

According to him, the data has changed from the conditions of the 2012 agreement which involved 126 aircraft and eventually had never successful. This time, the French aircraft manufacturer is ready to take responsibility for the aircraft produced on Indian soil to the extent that it has the ability to choose its subcontractors.

++

36 flyaway purchase (prince already finalized) plus initial Make in India component of 90 aircraft.

36 + 90 = 126, which was the original MMRCA requirement for Air Force. And one can rest assured that eventual IAF numbers will reach 189 (126+63) which was already mentioned years ago.

And Navy orders of Rafale-M for IAC-2 carrier will be on top of that.

Nice speculation,,, can we have the facts now please? Now you can either believe what the French are saying or you can belive what Defence Minister of India is saying.. Primarily this is G2G deal, correct, and so it is between France and India, Dassault is just informed by France, not by India. The price discussions are between France and India and not Dassault and India.

Now as reported widely and well known, the difference between the french and Indian expectations is roughly 30% (3-billion dollars roughly) Defence Minister has been on record to say ...that they wont budge on the price.. Thus now the impetus is on the French side if they want to make the deal happen.

Now since there is deadlock on the price (yes, the prices are not agreed as reported by French media) the french are trying to make the deal attractive , they are even sort of suggesting to increase the number of planes, which as I understand MoD has refused. The MoD informed the French that the discussion is on for 36 and we shall discuss these 36 only, rest we can see how it goes.

Now the Make in India part, its true that Dassault is interested to sell more these planes to India but GoI is non commital on buying more Rafales just the 36. Now Dassault is talking to Reliance and likes of those to sort of convince the govt that they can supply more planes (and try to reach 126 indirectly) but the govt has refused such overtures. The line from Govt of India is clear, if the plane is being made in india they would THINK ABOUT IT.. That does not consittute as an order.

So, the French want commitment from GoI that it will buy more planes if they make in India and MoD is non commital, and its only commitment is the discussion of 36 planes which is going nowhere.

Further looking at how the author did explain, if the 36 planes say cost 10 billion dollars that will be political suicide for BJP and they would not risk that. And adding another 90 which will end up being more expensive than these fly off ones.. So whatever being reported are just views how the french see it, always rosy.

In a way, since the discussion for PAKFA started, the French are more jittery, and that its easy to know that when they come up with such "inside news" and when our chair marshals sort of come up with statement for "we want MMRCA" The chari marshals are trying in a way to create sort of a fear in mind of people as to what happens if China and Pakistan attack simultaneously. This seems very rare. Firstly because if Pakistan attacks, China would not want to get into the mess. We have seen Kargil war, If we have war with China then again then we can see pakistan jumping in. But even for that scenario we are as of now well prepared. Mig-29 and MiG-21 on western sector and Su-30 MKI on the Eastern sector will ensure that we deal with both threats simultaneously, Whatever best PAF has at present cannot outmatch the MiG-29, and we can add a squadron or two of Su-0 MKI just to enforce.. On other hand, Su-30 MKI against the likes of Su-30 MKK and other Chinese planes will ensure stalemate on Eastern sector..

I can undrestand these gloomy comments from IAF, as they have been pampered by the UPA for past many years and far from the bravehearts from the past, the chair marshals are more eager to earn fast buck and also jobs of consultants in aersospace companies in return for their help.

As of now, we are well covered on all bases. IAF is not about Quantity, but Quality.

 

[smestarz]

Excerpts :

"We have conveyed our concerns to the government. Government is seized of this problem and the reason why the government signed the 36 aircraft (Rafale) on G2G basis is because of urgency that they felt because of the depletion in squadron numbers," Dhanoa, a Kargil war veteran said.

Asked if there is a requirement for more Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) type aircraft besides the 36 Rafales, he said yes.

"There are various avenues that are being explored. There is a requirement for us to buy a MMRCA class aircraft more than the 36 numbers that we have signed. Which platform may come in, that is something between us and the government. We (both) will have to take a call," he said.

Deputy Chief of the IAF Air Marshal R K S Bhadauria said that a decision on more aircraft will be take only after the conclusion of the contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Asked how many more MMRCA type aircraft is the IAF looking at, Bhadauria said he would not like to go into numbers.

"I am not going into numbers. MMRCA, you are aware of total numbers (126 fighters). We are getting 36 out of that. So there is a leftover there and we will take a rather holistic view of overall numbers," he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Well ambigous news, and nothing new, but thanks nevertheless

 

[Superdefender]

http://bharatkarnad.com/2016/02/15/taking-off/

 

[BON PLAN]

Time scale is important, becuse the time scale also reflects on the price... and the important thing is PRICE. If no price...Merdefrance..

If you are too poor to purchase a decent fighter, purchase a JF17. It will be a nice occasion to settle peace with Pakis.

 

[Gessler]

If you are too poor to purchase a decent fighter, purchase a JF17. It will be a nice occasion to settle peace with Pakis.

Relax. He smells a scam in everything. Probably considers himself the watchdog of India's economy. Too bad he barks at everyone, including potential investors!

 

[smestarz]

If you are too poor to purchase a decent fighter, purchase a JF17. It will be a nice occasion to settle peace with Pakis.

YES we are poor, and still the French come with begging bowl. We might be poor yet with pride. French.. beggars of Europe? As I said when the "poor" Indians whistle, we shall have Drian available with his bowl.. has happened a few times already..

 

[smestarz]

http://bharatkarnad.com/2016/02/15/taking-off/

Actually Modi realises his blunder, but then now they cannot have a nice way out. Considering the price differemce. I doubt that anything the French offer will make it Attractive.. The only thing attractive for Indians is value for money, and Rafale does not really offer Value for Money..
So, Modi proposes, Parrikar disposes...lets wait for a decade.. maybe we can take Rafale as Intermediate jet trainer for training PAKFA pilots

 

[Tactical Frog]

Actually Modi realises his blunder, but then now they cannot have a nice way out. Considering the price differemce. I doubt that anything the French offer will make it Attractive.. The only thing attractive for Indians is value for money, and Rafale does not really offer Value for Money..
So, Modi proposes, Parrikar disposes...lets wait for a decade.. maybe we can take Rafale as Intermediate jet trainer for training PAKFA pilots

Smart guy, it is a bit over your head, don' t you think ? When the deal is done, I promise to send you a bottle of mango so you will feel less confused.

 

[Gessler]

There is a reason why HAL is being kept as far away from MMRCA Make in India program as possible. Parrikar knows about HAL's incompetence only too well. So the MoD under Parrikar is trying out something new : giving the private industry the chance as the lead integrator.

If this formula works for defence MII, then HAL can start counting it's days as India's premier aerospace company. In the next 10-15 years, we will see Tata Group & Reliance Industries rise as the major competitors in the Indian aeronautics space. That's another thing that the private industry will bring : competition. The lack of precisely which led to HAL's tomfoolery know no bounds.

If one looks at the long term (next 30 years or so), HAL is all set to be a pretty defunct organisation. Once the big private players get a foothold, they simply won't allow any space for stupid people and that's when agencies like HAL will start feeling the heat.

Picture what happened to BSNL.

 

[garg_bharat]

Pay attention to developments in EU. The refugees and the negative interest rates tell only one thing, that is, EU is facing unprecedented stress.

Large commercial contracts with long period can become very troublesome if the source country faces political or economic upheaval.

The times of stability of Europe are past.

It is time for india to act smart and not believe in slogans.

 

[garg_bharat]

ECB is printing record amount of Euros (now 60B per month). Typically monetary expansion is accompanied by rise in interest rates. Here reverse is happening - they are reducing interest rates, well below zero. This can happen only when economic conditions are expected to worsen significantly. We need to ask why ECB takes such actions.

 

[smestarz]

Smart guy, it is a bit over your head, don' t you think ? When the deal is done, I promise to send you a bottle of mango so you will feel less confused.

That is a best way to promise but no really give . I mean looking at what they are saying in MoD and waht the news are in France, the chances of the deal... HIGHLY UNLIKELY

BTW And how many months / year you expect the deal to be signed? If you promise to give a champagne each month the deal is NOT SIGNED, then it would be worth the wait..Are you up for it? Or too much for your frog head? Honestlly i did not expect much from a frog...

 

[Superdefender]

That is a best way to promise but no really give . I mean looking at what they are saying in MoD and waht the news are in France, the chances of the deal... HIGHLY UNLIKELY

BTW And how many months / year you expect the deal to be signed? If you promise to give a champagne each month the deal is NOT SIGNED, then it would be worth the wait..Are you up for it? Or too much for your frog head? Honestlly i did not expect much from a frog...

I also have a feeling from earlier that MOD has a hidden agenda. It does not want overpriced Rafales. I think their plan is - Just sign for 36 planes first, then keep going round and round about price negotiation, both sides donot budge, 1 year pass, again negotiation continues, meanwhile French youth frustrated job not happenning, Parrikar does not budge now, France sweet talking, keep pressure all fail, still negotiate, more yrs pass, price ballooning, until MOD atlast cancell all 36 because they are now obsolete.