Know Your 'Rafale'

[PaliwalWarrior]

IAF planned for a tender in 2002, but actual tender happened in 2006. Had we purchased even 3 sqdns of Rafale in 2002, it would have been good. India would have got all 54 Rafales till 2006. But now!!! It is too late. In 2000, IAF thought they need a medium multirole aircraft to replace aging ones. Rafale procurement should have been completed by that time. Just after a few years, we will have our own 5th gen medium multiole fighter! Let look at the best case. All financial issues will be solved by this year and by 2020, we'll get all 36 birds. When they become obsolete, what to do? Sell them to Sri Lanka!? Too late........
Too late.........
Too late. Time flies faster than fighter.

There were no rafales on offer in 2002 neither the iaf wanted them in 2002

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

36 Rafales has run into legal issues. Ha ha ha....this is getting funnier and funnier day by day.

Legal issues on top of pricing issues which are still not resolved

I have been pointing the same thing

While both sides say it is govt to govt deal

The french govt is not willing to be the guarantor it is just offering a personal guarantee of hollande

Ha-ha

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Photonic, not Phototonic.

The idea is to utilize photons instead of electrons, with the intention of expanding the scope of the EM spectrum that can be put to use for detection/tracking purposes.

It's a revolutionary tech and will take a LOT of time to mature.

Even the PAK-FA will remain operating the Tikhomirov N-036 AESA for atleast 10 years from the point of induction. GaN AESAs will stay relevant for a nice, long time. Well worth the money being put in.

Even the Super-Sukhoi upgrade will likely incorporate a GaN-based AESA, derived from MIRES family.

Yes but the rafales India is negotiating does not come with gan

 

[BON PLAN]

Well not really true, UAE knew it was going to happen soon, and so they were trying to sell the entire lot
Uncle sam has no reason to trust France, as a matter of fact many of the wars the Americans had to save the French.. WW1, WW2, Vietnam.. So you expect that the Americans always help the French when they are in trouble, and Americans to be grateful for french begging to help them out? You have a very funny sense of humour boy. Looks like a collective french logic..

You really are an ignorant.
France win WW1, with GB help, but US was useless (they come the last few months).
France fight ALONE in indochine.

 

[BON PLAN]

1. Continue Su-30 production for 10 more years. That is 150 planes.
2. Buy 40 PAK-FA same as RuAF
3. Ramp up production of LCA Tejas. Already approved at 16 per year. Scope to increase to 30.
4. Hasten development of AMCA.[/QUOTE]
And you don't imagine such a scenario was studied by IAF and governement ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

If HAL was the problem i n mmrca

Why is dasault / France not giving guarantees now that

We are buying all flyaway from dasault and giving long term maintainance contract directly to dasault ?

Are thye afraid of all the tall claims they made wrt service availability rates. And lesser maintainance needs and lower LCC will now come back to bite them in their ass ?

Rafale lobby
Rafale fanboys and
Rafale / french sidekicks

Come on spin out a new story

 

[Tactical Frog]

Well not really true, UAE knew it was going to happen soon, and so they were trying to sell the entire lot
Uncle sam has no reason to trust France, as a matter of fact many of the wars the Americans had to save the French.. WW1, WW2, Vietnam.. So you expect that the Americans always help the French when they are in trouble, and Americans to be grateful for french begging to help them out? You have a very funny sense of humour boy. Looks like a collective french logic..

Hey, why don't you open some French bashing thread in the military history section of this forum ? Not sure if I really want to waste time to trash your nonsensical arguments though...

 

[Tactical Frog]

Legal issues on top of pricing issues which are still not resolved

I have been pointing the same thing

While both sides say it is govt to govt deal

The french govt is not willing to be the guarantor it is just offering a personal guarantee of hollande

Ha-ha

Nobody will give you this kind of guarantee, that is ridiculous. Even Russia declined to give you a guarantee for the SU-30 MKI.

 

[Tactical Frog]

If India keeps asking impossible things like liability clause involving french gov ( ! ) or arbitration proceedings done in India ( ! ) in case of commercial dispute , this deal is going nowhere. I am not familiar enough with Indian bureaucracy but can someone explain to me what the Law Ministry has to do with arms deal ? Isn't it enough to have a Defence Ministry and a Foreign Affairs department involved ( for the IGA part) ?

 

[smestarz]

The wars in which US has USed the French, you wanna say?

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Rather the other way where French had to be bailed out so that the matter did not come to that the opponent might make a move on Paris

 

[garg_bharat]

1. Continue Su-30 production for 10 more years. That is 150 planes.
2. Buy 40 PAK-FA same as RuAF
3. Ramp up production of LCA Tejas. Already approved at 16 per year. Scope to increase to 30.
4. Hasten development of AMCA.

And you don't imagine such a scenario was studied by IAF and governement ?[/QUOTE]

Did I say that? I told you the option mod has in case mmrca fails completely.

 

[smestarz]

so deal or no deal?
What if we simply buy more mig 29/35s and Su 30s ? In 12 billion we can get a lot of those aircraft, enough for few squadrons.

YES we can make up the shrinking nos and capability that IAF is talking about, but the big effect it would be same as happened in 70s when instead of developing HF-73, India opted to buy MiG-21 which were cheaper and did not need much of investment and thus we ended up handicapping our own potential

Steps to take in this overall situation.. Some more Su-30 MKI or say Su-35 S to be ordered but not more than 36 (to replace the nos of Rafale which are apparently not going anywhere) that is two squadrons of capable planes and spares more or less within our inventory

Ensure that there are big domestic orders from IAF for Tejas 1A and future Mk2, any officer who opposes Tejas his seniority should be overlooked and potential juniors promoted.

Invest in development of jet engine, right now we have to go for JV with Euroijet or GE..

Keep developing avonics

The important point here being that we have to clean the IAF of officers who have the mentality that IAF is imported Air force and get the officers on top hierarchy who believe its INDIAN AIR FORCE and do take interest in INDIAN PRODUCTS. They have to be fair to the indian products,

Also MiG-21 has to be replaced by Tejas ONLY, and these 36 planes (if ordered ) should have special config that should have AESA as of now and ability to carry Brahmos A missile

 

[garg_bharat]

Nobody will give you this kind of guarantee, that is ridiculous. Even Russia declined to give you a guarantee for the SU-30 MKI.

Law ministry reviews all large size contracts. Mod can override the objections, but unlikely in this case.

See somebody has to sign on the dotted line. If that somebody is not convinced, then it is not going to happen.

The first step is the price. If price is right, then other issues can be looked at.

 

[smestarz]

1. Tejas will start coming in second half of 2016.
2. If agreement is signed, first plane in 2020 delivered from Russia.
3. India is happy with GE engines. GE has promised to set up a factory in India. So American engine. AMCA can use GE engine as well.
4. I doubt IAF is spending 3B on Mirage 2000 to use them as LIFT.

You missed the point 4, as I pointed out that Mirage 2000 are now over shadowed by more capable planes in our neighbourhood. Thus if you send out Mirage 2000 on combat mission, you will need a MiG-29 or Su-30 MKI to baby sit it Also Mirage 2000-9D which is new plane with UAEAF crashed due to technical situation. Certainly we dont want planes that are on combat mission to just fall off the sky, So Mirage 2000 as of now are not more capable than the planes our enemy has, and as per some news even the never models will crash, so best is to use this upgraded Scrap as LIFT or risk losing them and giving experience to PAF pilots.

 

[Immanuel]

If India keeps asking impossible things like liability clause involving french gov ( ! ) or arbitration proceedings done in India ( ! ) in case of commercial dispute , this deal is going nowhere. I am not familiar enough with Indian bureaucracy but can someone explain to me what the Law Ministry has to do with arms deal ? Isn't it enough to have a Defence Ministry and a Foreign Affairs department involved ( for the IGA part) ?

Well this is a Govt. to Govt. deal, who else should we go to for liability clauses dumbass? Why is your Govt. now playing 'bitch' after insisting on a G2G deal?

Law ministry has everything to do with an arms deal, to ensure the deal is done with in the boudaries of the law. In the past, due to lack of oversight from the law, many deals were signed with severe gaps and hence enforcing them becomes a nightmare. Now, they have woken up to the reality, hence they scrutinize every deal.

 

[Gessler]

Yes but the rafales India is negotiating does not come with gan

Because the GaN-equipped RBE-2AA is not in production yet!

Once the tech is implemented, all RBE-2AAs will receive the GaN upgrade eventually. That includes IAF Rafales.

 

[Gessler]

Ask your sidekicks @Gessler about it

And who's sidekick are you?

Bottom-feeder.

 

[garg_bharat]

If India keeps asking impossible things like liability clause involving french gov ( ! ) or arbitration proceedings done in India ( ! ) in case of commercial dispute , this deal is going nowhere. I am not familiar enough with Indian bureaucracy but can someone explain to me what the Law Ministry has to do with arms deal ? Isn't it enough to have a Defence Ministry and a Foreign Affairs department involved ( for the IGA part) ?

The guarantee does not have to be sovereign. It can be a commercial guarantee.

India will be making fairly large milestone payments in this deal before any delivery happens. So a guarantee is not unusual.

Arbitration in india is not a problem. It is an Indian contract so that is perfectly logical.

 

[smestarz]

You really are an ignorant.
France win WW1, with GB help, but US was useless (they come the last few months).
France fight ALONE in indochine.

You should read about WW1 more in details, Honestly I am surprised that you are french at all,
By what logic do you really believe that German army which was at gate of Paris and bombing paris with big bertha were defeated? Maybe you should really read actual history rather than believe what they tell you in French news. During WW1, the jews who controlled much of finance in the world, came to an agreement with America that in order to save their investment they could not allow France and UK to lose, as their ivnetment would be lost. This brought in two things.. USA enters war on Allies side and the Jews in Germany stop helping the German war effort which was going German way.. And this backstabbing by the Jews during WW1 brought more to the hatred of Jews in Germany post 1933 when hitler came to Power. After the armistice was signed in 1918 the German army came back to Germany UNDEFEATED. Not a foreign soldier had kept a foot on German soil, Rather the Germans were camped a few miles outside Paris when armistice was signed..
This is the American contribution of WW1.. You thought the French and British defeated the Germans, were you taught this in history book? There was no mention of the "bad " germans attacking France during lunch time?

Do point me out to the battle in WW1 where the french army (or british army) pushed the germane over the biorder and then the Germans were suing for peace.. I am interested to read such information.

 

[Superdefender]

If India keeps asking impossible things like liability clause involving french gov ( ! ) or arbitration proceedings done in India ( ! ) in case of commercial dispute , this deal is going nowhere. I am not familiar enough with Indian bureaucracy but can someone explain to me what the Law Ministry has to do with arms deal ? Isn't it enough to have a Defence Ministry and a Foreign Affairs department involved ( for the IGA part) ?

Told ya before MOD playing with ya. If ya want, laugh it away. Rafale will be very soon Rafail.