Know Your 'Rafale'

[garg_bharat]

The basics should be very clear. India does not like French proposal. Period.

If French can give a proposal that is reasonable and workable, then an order can be placed.

This is the end of discussion.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Hmm . That is just a whole new system for the French side ... I don' t think we've ever done business like this before. Hoping we can work something out !

It is simple

India gets guarantee from french govt and french govt takes guarantee from dasault

So ultimately dasault is responsible

 

[garg_bharat]

It is simple

India gets guarantee from french govt and french govt takes guarantee from dasault

So ultimately dasault is responsible

I do not think the guarantee issue is show stopper. Indian press can be remarkably misleading.
A performance guarantee is very trivial requirement.

 

[garg_bharat]

@smestarz, there is no point in discussion on ww1 and ww2 in this thread.

France and Germany are on the same side now.

India has to deal with both EU and USA.

I think India is leaning more towards USA as arms supplier. Europeans are inconsistent and expensive.

 

[dawingman]

If the rafale deal is stalled, why all the hullabaloo of signing the deal in france in the first place? Are there legal outfalls for that ?

 

[garg_bharat]

If the rafale deal is stalled, why all the hullabaloo of signing the deal in france in the first place? Are there legal outfalls for that ?

IGA signed in January is not a commercial agreement. It is more like intent. It has to be followed by commercial agreements. It is like we give you 15B in orders, but you have to invest 10B in India. We neither gave them 15B orders, nor they invested 10B in India. So there is no action.

GOI has limited amount of money and it has to juggle all defence requirements, including internal security. How much can be spent on fighter aircraft per year?? This is a very important question in planning. This amount has to be matched with number of aircrafts required.

 

[BON PLAN]

The basics should be very clear. India does not like French proposal. Period.

If French can give a proposal that is reasonable and workable, then an order can be placed.

This is the end of discussion.

Don't you think it's strange India and France + Dassault always discussing? I think it's because it's not dead.

It is world wide well known indian are difficult to deal with, and that seller must ber very patient. We are at the end of bargaining. Every one try to have a better situation...
See UAE : they found Dassault proposal not competitive, they said it. After that they found EF proposal not technicaly adapted, they said it.

So until it's not clearly said "it's over", the bargaining continue. Both sides have a lot of others things to do than to meet unsuccessfully. If they meet and discuss again, it's not for nothing.

 

[BON PLAN]

15-03-2016
More powerful engines for the Rafale ?
Posted in Air Force , Industry Laurent Lagneau The 15-03-2016 Learn more about http://www.opex360.com/2016/03/15/des-moteurs-plus-puissants-pour-le-rafale/#Ye2YEMhKDpcVR6zo.99

For a long time in the negotiations to acquire 60 Rafale (negotiations still continue), UAE United Arab requested a more powerful engine of the combat aircraft developed by Dassault Aviation. To meet this wish, Snecma, Safran group subsidiary, has launched the M-88-X (and M-88-9) to carry the thrust provided by the M-88 engine of 75 kN to 90 kN. Then finally, the project went no further, the Emirates have abandoned their requirement on this point in the process.

So far, according to La Tribune, the idea of a more powerful engine for the Rafale made its way. The CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin, took the view that the time had come to "ask the question whether it is not appropriate to launch a study that would inflate a bit this motor [M -88, note]. Technically we can do. "
He added: "We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if this is possible. And if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable "to wear it.

Based on assumptions likely to be retained, it would be matter of developing a M-88 engine "8-9 tons of thrust" [80 90 kN, note]. And it could lead to changes at the Rafale air inlets.

 

[garg_bharat]

Don't you think it's strange India and France + Dassault always discussing? I think it's because it's not dead.

It is world wide well known indian are difficult to deal with, and that seller must ber very patient. We are at the end of bargaining. Every one try to have a better situation...
See UAE : they found Dassault proposal not competitive, they said it. After that they found EF proposal not technicaly adapted, they said it.

So until it's not clearly said "it's over", the bargaining continue. Both sides have a lot of others things to do than to meet unsuccessfully. If they meet and discuss again, it's not for nothing.

I do not think so. Why? Because it has been 4+ years since finalization of contract.

One thing cannot change during this time, which is specs of the plane.

The commercial terms cannot be so fluid as you say.

 

[Sam Biswas]

I do not think so. Why? Because it has been 4+ years since finalization of contract.

One thing cannot change during this time, which is specs of the plane.

The commercial terms cannot be so fluid as you say.

The reason is That Rafales are really flying White Elephants that will kill IAF's budget even before they fly. Pakistan PAF will be flying high and mighty with their donated cheap F-16s and China PLAF with their homemade J-whatever. Modiji and IAF are slowly coming to this conclusion. Rafales don't belong in India; it is as simple as that.

 

[BON PLAN]

I do not think so. Why? Because it has been 4+ years since finalization of contract.

One thing cannot change during this time, which is specs of the plane.

The commercial terms cannot be so fluid as you say.

4 years. It's long and short.
We are dealing with UAE undil 1997 (when Jacques CHirac Tried to sell Rafale with Mirage 2000-9)....
For Helo and tanker, in india, it was a long story also.

Specs. Are you sure Indian don't need a more powerfull engine? I've heard some news about it few weeks ago.
And a satellit link also (not on the F3 used on field tests)...

Sure it's not fluid. Every customer can't be a Egyptian one ! (4 months to firm).

 

[warrior monk]

15-03-2016
More powerful engines for the Rafale ?
Posted in Air Force , Industry Laurent Lagneau The 15-03-2016 Learn more about http://www.opex360.com/2016/03/15/des-moteurs-plus-puissants-pour-le-rafale/#Ye2YEMhKDpcVR6zo.99

For a long time in the negotiations to acquire 60 Rafale (negotiations still continue), UAE United Arab requested a more powerful engine of the combat aircraft developed by Dassault Aviation. To meet this wish, Snecma, Safran group subsidiary, has launched the M-88-X (and M-88-9) to carry the thrust provided by the M-88 engine of 75 kN to 90 kN. Then finally, the project went no further, the Emirates have abandoned their requirement on this point in the process.

So far, according to La Tribune, the idea of a more powerful engine for the Rafale made its way. The CEO of Safran, Philippe Petitcolin, took the view that the time had come to "ask the question whether it is not appropriate to launch a study that would inflate a bit this motor [M -88, note]. Technically we can do. "
He added: "We are in discussion with the relevant authorities to see if this is possible. And if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance, it would be desirable "to wear it.

Based on assumptions likely to be retained, it would be matter of developing a M-88 engine "8-9 tons of thrust" [80 90 kN, note]. And it could lead to changes at the Rafale air inlets.

What are they changing ?? airflow mass, increasing the inlet diameter and pressure ratio I suppose

 

[BON PLAN]

On another forum, one who seems very well informed, said a new version of 8.2 or 8.3 tons is on the way for qatar in 2018. It fit in the actual plane, without changing air inlet or without any modification on the plane (and I remember nearly 20 years ago, to have read a document saying the actual air inlet may received a slighlty more powerfull engine than 7.5 tons)

More thrust needs to modify air inlet and back of the plane. It cost a lot.

 

[warrior monk]

On another forum, one who seems very well informed, said a new version of 8.2 or 8.3 tons is on the way for qatar in 2018. It fit in the actual plane, without changing air inlet or without any modification on the plane (and I remember nearly 20 years ago, to have read a document saying the actual air inlet may received a slighlty more powerfull engine than 7.5 tons)

More thrust needs to modify air inlet and back of the plane. It cost a lot.

M88-2 & M88-4E ECO demonstrator
A/B thrust (lb) 17,000 20,250
Dry engine thrust (lb) 11,250 13,500
A/B specific fuel consumption (kg/daN.h) 1.70 1.70
Dry engine specific fuel consumption (kg/daN.h) 0.80 0.80
Air flow rate (kg/s) 65 72
Turbine Inlet Temperature (K) 1,850 (2,871°F) 1,850 (2,871°F)
Pressure ratio 24.50 27
Bypass ratio 0.30 0.30
Length (in) 139 142
Inlet diameter (in) 27.50 31

I guessed it from here see the airflow rate , pressure ratio , length and inlet diameter is being proposed to being changed . If not inlet then probably combuster efficiency i guess .

 

[BON PLAN]

M88-2 & M88-4E ECO demonstrator
A/B thrust (lb) 17,000 20,250
Dry engine thrust (lb) 11,250 13,500
A/B specific fuel consumption (kg/daN.h) 1.70 1.70
Dry engine specific fuel consumption (kg/daN.h) 0.80 0.80
Air flow rate (kg/s) 65 72
Turbine Inlet Temperature (K) 1,850 (2,871°F) 1,850 (2,871°F)
Pressure ratio 24.50 27
Bypass ratio 0.30 0.30
Length (in) 139 142
Inlet diameter (in) 27.50 31

I guessed it from here see the airflow rate , pressure ratio , length and inlet diameter is being proposed to being changed . If not inlet then probably combuster efficiency i guess .

I was speaking about the plane air entry, not the engine inlet itself.

 

[WolfPack86]

India may not buy Rafale? 'Build F16s, supply to Pak,' taunts French official
Paris is beginning to acknowledge the possibility that India might not buy the Rafale fighter because of sharp differences over the price, and New Delhi’s insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter’s delivery, performance and availability.

A senior French official with a close view of the on-going negotiations between New Delhi and Paris for 36 Rafale fighters told Business Standard on condition of anonymity: “If some people in the MoD do not want to allow the Rafale deal to go through, so be it. We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia.”
Underlining the irritation at repeated US offers to set up an assembly line in India to build the American F-16 Super Viper, the French official taunted: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.”

He was referring to Washington’s announcement last month of the sale to Pakistan of eight advanced Block 50/52 F-16 fighters for $699 million. Simultaneously, a senior Lockheed Martin official had publicly offered to “move our [F-16] production line from the US to India.”

Reminded that France too was supplying submarines to both India and Pakistan (DCNS is building six Scorpenes submarines with Mazagon Dock, after earlier selling Pakistan three advanced Agosta-90B submarines with air independent propulsion), he retorted, “That is different. Pakistan is getting a different submarine from what we are providing to India.”
The official dismissed the notion that an Indian order was critical for Dassault to break even in the Rafale project, in which tens of billion Euros have been spent on developing the fighter and establishing a production line. The official claimed, “The Rafale project is commercially viable based on the numbers that the French military requires, even if there is not a single export order.”

In fact, defence budget cuts have forced the French military to slash Rafale orders from over 300 originally planned to just 180 ordered so far. That is a small order, given that the Eurofighter Typhoon has over 700 aircraft on order; while more than 4,500 F-16s have been built over the years.

On New Delhi’s demands for sovereign guarantees from the French government, or a bank guarantee from Dassault, to cover the possibility of delivery or performance shortfalls in the Rafale, the official declared that the two countries would soon sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA), which would function as a sovereign guarantee.

“The government of France is standing behind the sale. Surely India is not asking for a bank guarantee when it has the word of the French government?” asked the official.
When it was pointed out that the IGA would only outline a supply agreement in broad terms, without detailed binding clauses and penalties, the official responded that the IGA was a strategic agreement between Paris and New Delhi, and that “a phrase here or a sentence there would make no difference.”

“In 1917, when the United States abandoned its isolationism and sent a division of troops to France to fight in World War I, it was not because there was some document with a clause that required them to fight. It was because of a common strategic aim. New Delhi and Paris must have a common strategic aim on the Rafale.”

French officials argue that, if Dassault is required to provide a bank guarantee against possible shortfalls in delivery and performance, India should cover that cost, which is normally 3-4 per cent of the guarantee amount.

Meanwhile, the Cost Negotiation Committee on the Rafale has made little headway in bridging the gap between the French demand and Indian counter-offer, which are believed to be around Euro 12 billion and Euro 9 billion respectively. Issues of liability are further complicating the likelihood of a deal soon.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, while visiting Paris last April, had requested for 36 Rafales, after a breakdown in negotiations for a much larger order for 126 Rafales. The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, after an exhaustive evaluation of six fighter aircraft

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ak-taunts-french-official-116031700447_1.html

 

[WolfPack86]

I think it is better Govt of India should cancel Rafale deal and go for more Tejas and SU 30MKI. India should buy MIG 35 or SU 35 Fighter as stop gap measure.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think it is better Govt of India should cancel Rafale deal and go for more Tejas and SU 30MKI. India should buy MIG 35 or SU 35 Fighter as stop gap measure.

nothing new under the sun.
Bargaining is continuing....

 

[rohit b3]

I think it is better Govt of India should cancel Rafale deal and go for more Tejas and SU 30MKI. India should buy MIG 35 or SU 35 Fighter as stop gap measure.

Why more Tejas and Su-30MKI?
Lets go for Mig-35 ,Su-35 for "Stop gap" ..along with F-16..F-18 ..Gripen. In all it could easily make up the numbers.
Lets just mothball Tejas.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Why more Tejas and Su-30MKI?
Lets go for Mig-35 ,Su-35 for "Stop gap" ..along with F-16..F-18 ..Gripen. In all it could easily make up the numbers.
Lets just mothball Tejas.

It will cost a fortune to maintain this variety of fighter jets and bankrupt the country. You should learn from Pakistan. They are acquiring only F-16s used/new using beg borrow steal strategy. That will minimize cost of maintenance and keep a strategic readiness level. India has too many varieties to be effective. Su30MKI in large number will remain helpful. Large number of Tejas will be equally helpful. India needs to choose another line that can be produced in India. It could be F-16, F-18, or Su35 as long as these are totally manufactured in India. India needs at least 400 jets in the next decade to remain competitive. Rafale will be the biggest mistake. I believe Modiji is also coming to that conclusion.