Know Your 'Rafale'

chex3009

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Once and for all a quick decision has to be taken and get rid of this MMRCA BS. If they are not agreeing to what you are willing to pay, why keep on negotiating without any deadline? Even if the IAF doesn't have "Plan B", least we can do is ensure increased serviceability of Su-30MKIs and order 40 more as some reports suggests and focus on increasing the production rate of Tejas.

As we have a saying in our Gujarati, "Kaya chogadhiya ma mahurat joi ne Rafale leva nikadya ta???"
 

rohit b3

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It will cost a fortune to maintain this variety of fighter jets and bankrupt the country. You should learn from Pakistan. They are acquiring only F-16s used/new using beg borrow steal strategy. That will minimize cost of maintenance and keep a strategic readiness level. India has too many varieties to be effective. Su30MKI in large number will remain helpful. Large number of Tejas will be equally helpful. India needs to choose another line that can be produced in India. It could be F-16, F-18, or Su35 as long as these are totally manufactured in India. India needs at least 400 jets in the next decade to remain competitive. Rafale will be the biggest mistake. I believe Modiji is also coming to that conclusion.
You totally missed the sarcasm in my comment. Lol.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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At last things are sinking inthe french brains that

Even 36 rafales is not a done deal yet and they. Are feeling the heat
 

Bornubus

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Lol Rafale is taunting India now,what a humiliation,Rafale Fangals can F themselves now.
 

chex3009

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Lol Rafale is taunting India now,what a humiliation,Rafale Fangals can F themselves now.
IMO this is what happens when we don't have "Plan B" to fall back to. Just imagine if they are taunting you before you've even got the Rafales, what will be the state when you are dependent on them for supplies when we are amidst war.
 

Gessler

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Surely I hope the people here won't let the words of a so-called "unnamed French official" in an Ajai Shukla article cloud your judgement & views.

Ajai Shukla of all people! The same guy who wanted to kill MMRCA from Day 1!

There are strong reasons why even after MMRCA being unconclusive, the MoD/IAF decided to carry forward negotiations with Dassault on a single-vendor basis.

The Rafale is exactly when we needed and that's what we decided after studying over 600 technical points and producing over 1,000 pages of evaluation reports for each competing aircraft. Surely, such strong technical & operational knowledge stands for something...it's saddening to see some people just shouting "dump Rafale, dump Rafale" and accusing everyone of corruption without understanding how thoroughly the evaluation was conducted and why & how Rafale was selected. AND even after all this, why we still are sticking to our plan of buying it.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Everyone laughs at Ajay Shukla but what he has been writing about rafale deal, what will 126. Deal will costs ultimately is step by step turning out to be true
 

Tactical Frog

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The same Ajai Shukla who tweet after tweet tries to undermine and sabotage the Rafale deal .

One tweet I am not ready to forget after Qatar' s deal :
 

WolfPack86

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Fate of India-France Rafale Fighter Deal Uncertain
Negotiations between India and France over a Dassault Rafale fighter deal appear to be stonewalled.
The government-to-government arrangement between India and France for the sale of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters to New Delhi may be running into insurmountable problems. Over at the Business Standard, Ajai Shukla reports that Paris is publicly acknowledging the possibility that the deal may collapse entirely over persistent differences between the two countries over pricing issues and India’s “insistence on enforceable guarantees regarding the fighter’s delivery, performance, and availability.”

Shukla’s report contains some remarkably frank quotes from the French side in these negotiations. A senior French official told the Business Standard that if the Indian defense ministry continues to drive a hard negotiation, France could look elsewhere: ”We are currently building it for Egypt and Qatar, and we could have another customer in Malaysia,” he remarked, highlighting other deals. The same official went on with a particularly biting taunt for Indian defense officials: “If you don’t want the Rafale, go ahead and build the F-16 here. You can build it in India and supply it to Pakistan also.” He was referencing a recent $699 million U.S.-Pakistan deal for the sale of eight F-16 Block-52 fighters.

The French official’s remarks sought to make it clear that France holds the stronger cards in the negotiations and doesn’t necessarily need to sell India 36 fighters to ensure that the Rafale project breaks even for Dassault. “The Rafale project is commercially viable based on the numbers that the French military requires, even if there is not a single export order,” he added.
As I reported for The Diplomat last year, India put an end to its long-troubled Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which sought 126 jets. Dassault’s Rafale had won the tender after a competitive evaluation of several international firms and their offerings, including the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16, Mikoyan MiG-35, Saab Gripen, and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Instead, in what initially appeared to be a simplification of the procurement process, India decided to deal directly with the French government in a deal that was announced unexpectedly during Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s April 2015 visit to France.

Now, nearly a year later, the two countries remain hung up on a range of issues. For example, as my colleague Franz-Stefan Gady discussed in January, the two governments were hung up for months on so-called “offset clauses” in the deal, which require Dassault to invest 50 percent of the contract value of the deal inside of India. Though India is keen to conclude the deal to fill important requirements for the Indian Air Force, it is also interested in bringing investment to the country and having the deal spur a more robust domestic defense industrial base, in line with Modi’s “Make in India” initiative.
Shukla’s report highlights the extent to which France is growing frustrated with India’s negotiating position on the Rafale deal. That an official would take to the Indian press to taunt and criticize New Delhi’s position speaks to the fact that this deal is increasing heading onto thin ice and risks falling through entirely. In recent weeks, New Delhi’s negotiating position has only hardened; for instance, in February, it requested a further decrease in the price after initial concessions by France. India’s decision to have French President Francois Hollande visit in January as the chief guest for its Republic Day parade did not seem to make any appreciable difference on the status of the negotiations.

The favorable cost differential was one of the factors that initial drove India to scrap the MMRCA and opt for a government-to-government arrangement with the French. The 36 fighters in this deal are to be purchased in “fly-away” condition, meaning that the complications of arranging for domestic assembly by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) no longer applied. Nevertheless, despite initial optimism that the new deal would see the IAF fly some Rafales–if not the full 126 it sought under the MMRCA–a deal may still be months away.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/fate-of-india-france-rafale-fighter-deal-uncertain/
 

Immanuel

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Surely I hope the people here won't let the words of a so-called "unnamed French official" in an Ajai Shukla article cloud your judgement & views.

Ajai Shukla of all people! The same guy who wanted to kill MMRCA from Day 1!

There are strong reasons why even after MMRCA being unconclusive, the MoD/IAF decided to carry forward negotiations with Dassault on a single-vendor basis.

The Rafale is exactly when we needed and that's what we decided after studying over 600 technical points and producing over 1,000 pages of evaluation reports for each competing aircraft. Surely, such strong technical & operational knowledge stands for something...it's saddening to see some people just shouting "dump Rafale, dump Rafale" and accusing everyone of corruption without understanding how thoroughly the evaluation was conducted and why & how Rafale was selected. AND even after all this, why we still are sticking to our plan of buying it.
MRCA's big mistake was to the concept of L-1. The prudent way would have been to pit both the finalists against each other and the best deal wins. We now know the whole commercial bid by Dassault for the MRCA was a farse, with tons of hidden costs, thus bringing the whole project up significantly. While also means, Rafale wasn't really L-1.

Second mistake was made by Modi who again stuck to the Rafale, they should have allowed EF to compete even if only to put Dassult back in its place, now we are left stroking our [edited] while the pimps at Dassult try their level best to screw with us every step of the way.

The costs in the meantime have ballooned, the timing has shifted and Rafale is not worth it at the prices being peddled. If the deal can be signed for 8 billion for 36 fighters + weapons + 50% offsets + service charges for 10 years, its a done deal, if not Dassault will have to go fishing else where.

From what I hear the cost of the weapons packge will be lower as IAF prefers predominantly US weapons on the Rafale, now its just a matter of dropping the price of the deal to €8 billion and we can end up eventually with 90 Rafale in all for the IAF i.e a SQD each for every one of the 5 air commands.

The ball is in Dassault's court. Rafale is not worth it at 36 fighters for 12 billion i.e. a whopping €333 million per bird. For that we can easily have 200 Mig-35 or 80 Advanced Super Hornets. Now 36 Rafale can't bring the same value as 200 Mig-35s even with a poor 30% availability rate.
 
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Bahamut

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MRCA's big mistake was to the concept of L-1. The prudent way would have been to pit both the finalists against each other and the best deal wins. We now know the whole commercial bid by Dassault for the MRCA was a farse, with tons of hidden costs, thus bringing the whole project up significantly. While also means, Rafale wasn't really L-1.

Second mistake was made by Modi who again stuck to the Rafale, they should have allowed EF to compete even if only to put Dassult back in its place, now we are left stroking our [edited] while the pimps at Dassult try their level best to screw with us every step of the way.

The costs in the meantime have ballooned, the timing has shifted and Rafale is not worth it at the prices being peddled. If the deal can be signed for 8 billion for 36 fighters + weapons + 50% offsets + service charges for 10 years, its a done deal, if not Dassault will have to go fishing else where.

From what I hear the cost of the weapons packge will be lower as IAF prefers predominantly US weapons on the Rafale, now its just a matter of dropping the price of the deal to €8 billion and we can end up eventually with 90 Rafale in all for the IAF i.e a SQD each for every one of the 5 air commands.

The ball is in Dassault's court. Rafale is not worth it at 36 fighters for 12 billion i.e. a whopping €333 million per bird. For that we can easily have 200 Mig-35 or 80 Advanced Super Hornets. Now 36 Rafale can't bring the same value as 200 Mig-35s even with a poor 30% availability rate.
I agree ,the concept of MRCA was to have a cheap and affordable jet but it got killed as soon as Rafale and Euro fighter entered ,Rafale is ok to replace Mirage 2000 but the price is so high that it kill are budget.
 
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BON PLAN

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I agree ,the concept of MRCA was to have a cheap and affordable jet but it got killed as soon as Rafale and Euro fighter entered ,Rafale is ok to replace Mirage 2000 but the price is so high that it kill are budget.
The truth is : You and I don't know the real price. If it was really 8 billions vs 12 billions, bargaining ended until some weekS or some monthS. But it's not the case.
 

Immanuel

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Sure, we don't the price down to the last cents but there is enough figures out there to make an estimation. May be its 12 billion or slightly less or more, that isn't the point. The key point here is, Rafale offer at the moment is too expensive i.e Rafale is not worth it at the prices being quoted and that there are liability issues on top. Dassault & Frecnh Govt. need to make a better offer or loose the deal. No body is asking Dassault and French Govt. to bend over and allow themselves to be molested. I sure hope the French stick to their offer and this whole deal is cancelled.
 

tharun

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What is the cost for buying the rafales?
Egypt bought 50 mig-35's for $2 billion
 

BON PLAN

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What is the cost for buying the rafales?
Egypt bought 50 mig-35's for $2 billion
Have you seen an official bill? NO.

It's like the price of SH18 for Australia : cheap. But....but.... without support, spares, weapons....
 

gadeshi

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Have you seen an official bill? NO.

It's like the price of SH18 for Australia : cheap. But....but.... without support, spares, weapons....
Egypt has bought 48 MiG-29M/M2, not MiG-35. They are much cheapper due to AESA and some other systems absense.
And their defence suit is simplier than that for MiG-35.
But order includes first batch of spares, weapons and crews training.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
 

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