Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

and drunk less.

Let's not judge Russian drinking, the French don't go a meal without wine, its ok, its the good life

 

[BON PLAN]

Variable geometry planes? VTOL? Too complicated for French "superior " technology?

Absolutely not !
I forgot that. Than you my dear Smestarz.
Mirage G4 :

Mirage G8 :

For VTOL : Balzac :

It reach Mach 2.03 .....

Anything else to improve your level?

 

[Bahamut]

@BON PLAN Is there any plans for a UCAV version of rafale or a single engine bersion of rafale with less capability but cheaper to own and operate ( to replace Mirage 2000 after 10 -15 years)?

 

[smestarz]

Absolutely not !
I forgot that. Than you my dear Smestarz.
Mirage G4 : View attachment 7836View attachment 7837

Mirage G8 :

For VTOL : Balzac :

It reach Mach 2.03 .....

Anything else to improve your level?

Nice.. lets do port Morten of what you put

I did ask very clearly about operational Variable Geometry and VTOL planes.

About Mirage G8 .

Mirage G4-01 was redesignated G8-01 and remained a two-seat aircraft (first flight 8 May 1971) with the second aircraft, G4-02 becoming a single-seat version, G8-02 (first flight 13 July 1972). The G8 variants were equipped with Thomson-CSF radar and a low-altitude navigational-attack system based on that used in the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Milan. As no funding was included for the Mirage G8 in the 1971-1976 French defence budget the aircraft did not enter production


First flight 18 November 1967
Status Cancelled in the 1970s
Primary user French Air Force
Number built 3
Developed from Dassault Mirage F2

OPERATIONAL EVER: NO


MIRAGE BLAZAC V

The Balzac V began tethered hovering on 13 October 1962 and achieved the first free hover only six days later, two months ahead of schedule. The first accelerating transition from vertical take-off to horizontal flight took place on its seventeenth sortie on March 18, 1963.

The aircraft crashed on 10 January 1964, on its 125th sortie, during a low-altitude hover.

Role VTOL testbed
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation
First flight 13 October 1962
Primary user French Air Force
Produced 1962
Number built 1
Developed from Dassault Mirage III

OPERATIONAL EVER: NO


Now that brings two things
A) As I said before that the French had Mirage III and they tried to extract max from that design, Mirage 2000 and Rafale are developments of Mirage III avionics and engines .. So the French truly dont have a new design since 70s

B) The russians produced, inducted and used Variable geometry plane, even the Su-24 which is still operational.. On other hand VTOL Yak-141 had bad timing as it was developed during the collapse of Soviet union. And it went down with the collapse.

But the technology was sound that even Lockheed asked them to colaborate for F-35 B.

By the way, if you talk of all the plane americans made prototype of and were never operational, you could have an airport just with prototypes.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN Is there any plans for a UCAV version of rafale or a single engine bersion of rafale with less capability but cheaper to own and operate ( to replace Mirage 2000 after 10 -15 years)?

I don't think so. In mid 90's there was a plan to study a single engine Rafale, with a 11tons M88, tu cut price. But it was only a premice study.
Some thinks it was an error to stop the production of Mirage 2000.... A powerfull version of M88 (11 tons?) inside may have seduced some customers.... Or why not transfering the line in ... India? But the top brass of Dassault decided to put all in the sole Rafale.

For UCAV, futur in on the way with a common full scale demonstrator launched by UK and France last week, based on Taranis and Neuron UCAV.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nice.. lets do port Morten of what you put

I did ask very clearly about operational Variable Geometry and VTOL planes.

About Mirage G8 .

Mirage G4-01 was redesignated G8-01 and remained a two-seat aircraft (first flight 8 May 1971) with the second aircraft, G4-02 becoming a single-seat version, G8-02 (first flight 13 July 1972). The G8 variants were equipped with Thomson-CSF radar and a low-altitude navigational-attack system based on that used in the SEPECAT Jaguar and Dassault Milan. As no funding was included for the Mirage G8 in the 1971-1976 French defence budget the aircraft did not enter production


First flight 18 November 1967
Status Cancelled in the 1970s
Primary user French Air Force
Number built 3
Developed from Dassault Mirage F2

OPERATIONAL EVER: NO


MIRAGE BLAZAC V

The Balzac V began tethered hovering on 13 October 1962 and achieved the first free hover only six days later, two months ahead of schedule. The first accelerating transition from vertical take-off to horizontal flight took place on its seventeenth sortie on March 18, 1963.

The aircraft crashed on 10 January 1964, on its 125th sortie, during a low-altitude hover.

Role VTOL testbed
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation
First flight 13 October 1962
Primary user French Air Force
Produced 1962
Number built 1
Developed from Dassault Mirage III

OPERATIONAL EVER: NO


Now that brings two things
A) As I said before that the French had Mirage III and they tried to extract max from that design, Mirage 2000 and Rafale are developments of Mirage III avionics and engines .. So the French truly dont have a new design since 70s

B) The russians produced, inducted and used Variable geometry plane, even the Su-24 which is still operational.. On other hand VTOL Yak-141 had bad timing as it was developed during the collapse of Soviet union. And it went down with the collapse.

But the technology was sound that even Lockheed asked them to colaborate for F-35 B.

By the way, if you talk of all the plane americans made prototype of and were never operational, you could have an airport just with prototypes.

Your question was :"Variable geometry planes? VTOL? Too complicated for French "superior " technology?". No precision about operational or not my darling Smestarz.

No need to put in operation a plane not good enough and/or too costly. It's why no future for G4/G8, Mirage F2, Super Mirage 4000.

Dassault has made a lot of demonstrators, to study plenty configurations.
We can say that Rafale is the son of all this experience. Some very good, some less.

Russian tried with SU47 berkut a very surprising config. (as US with X29). No futur. But they learn something with it.

Be like the russian ingeneer : learn from your experiences my sweet Smestarz.

 

[smestarz]

Your question was :"Variable geometry planes? VTOL? Too complicated for French "superior " technology?". No precision about operational or not my darling Smestarz.

No need to put in operation a plane not good enough and/or too costly. It's why no future for G4/G8, Mirage F2, Super Mirage 4000.

Dassault has made a lot of demonstrators, to study plenty configurations.
We can say that Rafale is the son of all this experience. Some very good, some less.

Russian tried with SU47 berkut a very surprising config. (as US with X29). No futur. But they learn something with it.

Be like the russian ingeneer : learn from your experiences my sweet Smestarz.

A Fag? Hello BP,.. I am a guy... and I am not into guys...
VTOL and Variable geometry are too complicated... VTOL one made and that Crashed... Variable Geometry? where did it go? You see, Tejas has actually flown more than these planes, France built the plane with lot of aircraft building experience, India is doing it without any...

I mean a plane that flies for 125 sorties and crashes, and the aircraft maker and that too DASSAULT does not make another prototype?? Guess it was stolen tech, Else why not have the balls to make one and operational?

Balzac VTOL and Mach 2 , you have a credible link? Or just BS?
You did say Mach 2.03 for Balzac
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-102#post-1142824

There are few info that is quite interesting

The Balzac V made its first (and second) tethered flight on 12 October 1962 at Melun-Villaroche with René Bigand at the controls. Nylon cables attached to lifting points near its nose and main landing gear tethered it firmly to the ground. On 18 October it made its first free hovering flight and on 1 March the next year it made its first conventional flight. Finally, on 18 March 1963, the aircraft made its first transition from vertical to horizontal flight. The Balzac V made its first complete cycle of taking off vertically, flying horizontally and then landing vertically on 29 March. It was successfully demonstrated at the Paris Air Show in June 1963.

These successes were overshadowed by two fatal accidents that were partly as a result of the complexity of the flight control system, jet reaction control system and nine-engine layout. The first accident occurred on 10 January 1964 on the Balzac V’s 125th sortie. Jean Pinier, of France's Flight Test Centre, lost control of the aircraft after he directed it into a crosswind to eliminate drift. The speed and angle of attack were beyond the safe limits of controlled flight and so the aircraft crashed, killing Pinier. After the crash the aircraft was rebuilt and first flew again in February 1965.


The United States Air Force also tested the Balzac and lost one of their pilots as a result – ironically with the rebuilt aircraft that killed Pinier. On 8 September 1965 USAF pilot Major Neal was killed when the vertical lift jets ran out of fuel and his ejection seat malfunctioned.

Balzac 2 : 1 Pilot

With record like this,, good thing it was scrapped, One prototype took down 2 pilots in separate incidents... As I said,, too complicated for French

Let me also correct you, Balzac never crossed Mach 1.0, it was the Mirage III V which crossed Mach 2.03, but then that crashed too.

Both Mirage III Vs continued to be tested at Istres and Melun-Villaroche until the Mirage III V 02 was accidentally destroyed during crabbing/sideslip flight tests. On 28 November 1966 Bernard Ziegler was flying the aircraft at Istres when it became uncontrollable and he ejected. After the crash the programme was terminated and the French government abandoned their VTOL aircraft project.

Instead of the Mirage III V, the French Defence Ministry pursued other aircraft that could take off and land in short distances from roughly prepared strips. First were the Mirage F1 and F2/F3. These all had the same general configuration of a high-mounted swept wing with high-lift devices and horizontal tail surfaces. They had much better slow-speed performance than Dassault’s other delta-winged designs, as well as greater internal fuel capacity.


At the same time Dassault developed a series of swing-wing aircraft, the first of which was the single-engine Mirage G. First flown on 18 November 1967, it showed great promise, but the French Air Force dropped the project after they opted for a twin-engine variant. Thus the Mirage G4/G8 was developed. The Mirage G4 was the initial two-seat variant, but was abandoned in favour of the single-seat Mirage G8. First flown on 8 May 1971, it was cancelled because of high costs and changing mission requirements. In the end, the Mirage F1 was put into production and went on to sell around the world. Together with the Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar, the F1 filled the Mirage III V’s intended role, with the Jaguar being used for attack and the F1 being used mainly for interception.


The Mirage III V programme was abandoned because the aircraft was extremely complex, resulting in many crashes, and could not carry a large enough payload because of the heavy lifting jets. Fuel consumption was extremely high, especially during hovering flight and consequently range was very poor. The Harrier, which uses a vectored thrust engine, is so successful because it uses the same engine for vertical and horizontal flight and doesn’t have to carry heavy lift jets that remain unused for most of the flight.

http://www.aircraftinformation.info/art_mir3v.htm

TOO COMPLICATED FOR THE FRENCH TO MAKE,

French are best at Mirage III and its variables from Mirage III to Rafale, same template with better avionics as avaibale ..

 

[smestarz]

@BON PLAN Is there any plans for a UCAV version of rafale or a single engine bersion of rafale with less capability but cheaper to own and operate ( to replace Mirage 2000 after 10 -15 years)?

The French are good at developing a template.. for example Mirage III was successful and still they use that template.. Rafale in a way is around 70% Mirage III and with Canards..It might be easy for the french to make it into UCAV. They have to ask the Americans for the help, thats all. In a way that might save money for the French, who, if there is no external stimulii are ready to roll over.

None of the European countries are in position to fund development and production of a plane on their own. Definitely not the French.. You will see now Europeans coming together to develop next future plane, not because they see advantage in it, but any country doing it alone.. surely will be bankrupt for not having enough resources. Further even if they produce the next plane, are they going to buy it? All the European countries are trying to cut the numbers of planes, so that they cut spending on defence. The French are storing new Rafales produced which they are obliged to buy, But now they are giving the planes from Storage to egypt. A plane usually takes 2-3 years to build. The Egypt order was signed just end of last year, and if 6 planes are already delivered to Egypt then they are not really newly made. They are ones either being used or in stocks (storage)

The modern looking UCAV like X-47 can only be developed and used by countries like USA, Russia, Japan, China, India, South Africa. European countries, they will want to have partners from India or south Africa or Japan so that the risks and cost of development is shared.. To go for it alone, they can, but their own country cannot buy it.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Hummm.... Russian tanks perform badly during all wars. T72 were smashed by AMX30, Abrams and Challenger in Irak.

There is another example to consider for rrussian v/s wester weapons

India pak wars

How the Indian Russian junk weapons trounced pak western weapons

Google up - Patton nagar

And then talk

 

[BON PLAN]

There is another example to consider for rrussian v/s wester weapons

India pak wars

How the Indian Russian junk weapons trounced pak western weapons

Google up - Patton nagar

And then talk

Patton? Not a good tank. Avery body knows that. Try another exemple please.

 

[BON PLAN]

A Fag? Hello BP,.. I am a guy... and I am not into guys...
VTOL and Variable geometry are too complicated... VTOL one made and that Crashed... Variable Geometry? where did it go? You see, Tejas has actually flown more than these planes, France built the plane with lot of aircraft building experience, India is doing it without any...

I mean a plane that flies for 125 sorties and crashes, and the aircraft maker and that too DASSAULT does not make another prototype?? Guess it was stolen tech, Else why not have the balls to make one and operational?

Balzac VTOL and Mach 2 , you have a credible link? Or just BS?
You did say Mach 2.03 for Balzac
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/know-your-rafale.32861/page-102#post-1142824

There are few info that is quite interesting

The Balzac V made its first (and second) tethered flight on 12 October 1962 at Melun-Villaroche with René Bigand at the controls. Nylon cables attached to lifting points near its nose and main landing gear tethered it firmly to the ground. On 18 October it made its first free hovering flight and on 1 March the next year it made its first conventional flight. Finally, on 18 March 1963, the aircraft made its first transition from vertical to horizontal flight. The Balzac V made its first complete cycle of taking off vertically, flying horizontally and then landing vertically on 29 March. It was successfully demonstrated at the Paris Air Show in June 1963.

These successes were overshadowed by two fatal accidents that were partly as a result of the complexity of the flight control system, jet reaction control system and nine-engine layout. The first accident occurred on 10 January 1964 on the Balzac V’s 125th sortie. Jean Pinier, of France's Flight Test Centre, lost control of the aircraft after he directed it into a crosswind to eliminate drift. The speed and angle of attack were beyond the safe limits of controlled flight and so the aircraft crashed, killing Pinier. After the crash the aircraft was rebuilt and first flew again in February 1965.


The United States Air Force also tested the Balzac and lost one of their pilots as a result – ironically with the rebuilt aircraft that killed Pinier. On 8 September 1965 USAF pilot Major Neal was killed when the vertical lift jets ran out of fuel and his ejection seat malfunctioned.

Balzac 2 : 1 Pilot

With record like this,, good thing it was scrapped, One prototype took down 2 pilots in separate incidents... As I said,, too complicated for French

Let me also correct you, Balzac never crossed Mach 1.0, it was the Mirage III V which crossed Mach 2.03, but then that crashed too.

Both Mirage III Vs continued to be tested at Istres and Melun-Villaroche until the Mirage III V 02 was accidentally destroyed during crabbing/sideslip flight tests. On 28 November 1966 Bernard Ziegler was flying the aircraft at Istres when it became uncontrollable and he ejected. After the crash the programme was terminated and the French government abandoned their VTOL aircraft project.

Instead of the Mirage III V, the French Defence Ministry pursued other aircraft that could take off and land in short distances from roughly prepared strips. First were the Mirage F1 and F2/F3. These all had the same general configuration of a high-mounted swept wing with high-lift devices and horizontal tail surfaces. They had much better slow-speed performance than Dassault’s other delta-winged designs, as well as greater internal fuel capacity.


At the same time Dassault developed a series of swing-wing aircraft, the first of which was the single-engine Mirage G. First flown on 18 November 1967, it showed great promise, but the French Air Force dropped the project after they opted for a twin-engine variant. Thus the Mirage G4/G8 was developed. The Mirage G4 was the initial two-seat variant, but was abandoned in favour of the single-seat Mirage G8. First flown on 8 May 1971, it was cancelled because of high costs and changing mission requirements. In the end, the Mirage F1 was put into production and went on to sell around the world. Together with the Anglo-French SEPECAT Jaguar, the F1 filled the Mirage III V’s intended role, with the Jaguar being used for attack and the F1 being used mainly for interception.


The Mirage III V programme was abandoned because the aircraft was extremely complex, resulting in many crashes, and could not carry a large enough payload because of the heavy lifting jets. Fuel consumption was extremely high, especially during hovering flight and consequently range was very poor. The Harrier, which uses a vectored thrust engine, is so successful because it uses the same engine for vertical and horizontal flight and doesn’t have to carry heavy lift jets that remain unused for most of the flight.

http://www.aircraftinformation.info/art_mir3v.htm

TOO COMPLICATED FOR THE FRENCH TO MAKE,

French are best at Mirage III and its variables from Mirage III to Rafale, same template with better avionics as avaibale ..

Scuse me my dear Smestarz,
First Mirage G made first flight in 1966. This one reach mach 2 three weeks after ! It crashed in 1973 due to electrical failure.
Mirage G8 - 02 reach mach 2,34 in july 1973. Two samples were made. TThey are on static display in Le Bourget and in Montelimar.

Not surprising a proto some time crashed. See F22, see Gripen, ....

For the rest..... The readers will appreciate.

 

[BON PLAN]

The French are good at developing a template.. for example Mirage III was successful and still they use that template.. Rafale in a way is around 70% Mirage III and with Canards..It might be easy for the french to make it into UCAV. They have to ask the Americans for the help, thats all. In a way that might save money for the French, who, if there is no external stimulii are ready to roll over.

None of the European countries are in position to fund development and production of a plane on their own. Definitely not the French.. You will see now Europeans coming together to develop next future plane, not because they see advantage in it, but any country doing it alone.. surely will be bankrupt for not having enough resources. Further even if they produce the next plane, are they going to buy it? All the European countries are trying to cut the numbers of planes, so that they cut spending on defence. The French are storing new Rafales produced which they are obliged to buy, But now they are giving the planes from Storage to egypt. A plane usually takes 2-3 years to build. The Egypt order was signed just end of last year, and if 6 planes are already delivered to Egypt then they are not really newly made. They are ones either being used or in stocks (storage)

The modern looking UCAV like X-47 can only be developed and used by countries like USA, Russia, Japan, China, India, South Africa. European countries, they will want to have partners from India or south Africa or Japan so that the risks and cost of development is shared.. To go for it alone, they can, but their own country cannot buy it.

The ONLY common thing between a Mirage 3 and Mirage 2000 are some bolts, maybe wheels.
Same between a Mirage 2000 and a Rafale.
If you can't see that you're blind.

Who ask money from US ? We don't need foreign money to study and built our planes.

And no, we are not storing Rafale, where have you read that? In this cas we should have delivered Egypte 2 weeks after deal...

Post after post you are telling much more incredible things. You're not fair, not serious, not credible.

 

[smestarz]

Scuse me my dear Smestarz,
First Mirage G made first flight in 1966. This one reach mach 2 three weeks after ! It crashed in 1973 due to electrical failure.
Mirage G8 - 02 reach mach 2,34 in july 1973. Two samples were made. TThey are on static display in Le Bourget and in Montelimar.

Not surprising a proto some time crashed. See F22, see Gripen, ....

For the rest..... The readers will appreciate.

Gripen, and F-22 became operational unline these..By the way, were you not talking of superior french Technology.. I mean how does Superior = Crashing??

And then let us look at India, Tejas....no crashes till now, touch wood.. I really started to question what exactly "superior" really means in France.

 

[smestarz]

The ONLY common thing between a Mirage 3 and Mirage 2000 are some bolts, maybe wheels.
Same between a Mirage 2000 and a Rafale.
If you can't see that you're blind.

Who ask money from US ? We don't need foreign money to study and built our planes.

And no, we are not storing Rafale, where have you read that? In this cas we should have delivered Egypte 2 weeks after deal...

Post after post you are telling much more incredible things. You're not fair, not serious, not credible.

Mirage III and Mirage 2000 is the same design..and Rafale is same design + Canards (like SAAB Viggen)
I might really appreciate Dassault that they have taken a 3rd Gen plane (Mirage III) and pushed it till almost 4.5th Gen.. (Rafale) bravo !! Even the people who extract juice from Sugar cane would be proud

 

[BON PLAN]

Gripen, and F-22 became operational unline these..By the way, were you not talking of superior french Technology.. I mean how does Superior = Crashing??

And then let us look at India, Tejas....no crashes till now, touch wood.. I really started to question what exactly "superior" really means in France.

You're not tired to be wrong post after post?

A Gripen crash in Sweden during developpment phase, in 1989. It was the JAS39-01, on its sixth flight.... SO FAR AWAY BECOMING OPERATIONNAL. Entry in service of GRIPEN : 1996
F22 also, in april 1992, during flight testing. Pilot were Mertz if I remember well. A LM test pilot. A FBW problem. Entry in service of F22 : 2005

Mirage G crash was in 1973.... far away these beautiful symbols of swedish and US tech'

 

[BON PLAN]

Mirage III and Mirage 2000 is the same design..and Rafale is same design + Canards (like SAAB Viggen)
I might really appreciate Dassault that they have taken a 3rd Gen plane (Mirage III) and pushed it till almost 4.5th Gen.. (Rafale) bravo !! Even the people who extract juice from Sugar cane would be proud

So Boeing 787 and boeing 737 same design.... two wings, two engines, a classical tail. (note that Rafale is a twin engine and Mirage 3 a single... so....).

So EF is a dérivative of Mirage 3 + canards ?

So F22 is a derivative of YF17 ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Mirage III and Mirage 2000 is the same design..and Rafale is same design + Canards (like SAAB Viggen)
I might really appreciate Dassault that they have taken a 3rd Gen plane (Mirage III) and pushed it till almost 4.5th Gen.. (Rafale) bravo !! Even the people who extract juice from Sugar cane would be proud

For my blind Smerdetarz :

Mirage 3

Rafale

Sur it's two planes. It's wo Delata one. For the rest, no comparison possible, except for a noob.

 

[smestarz]

You're not tired to be wrong post after post?

A Gripen crash in Sweden during developpment phase, in 1989. It was the JAS39-01, on its sixth flight.... SO FAR AWAY BECOMING OPERATIONNAL. Entry in service of GRIPEN : 1996
F22 also, in april 1992, during flight testing. Pilot were Mertz if I remember well. A LM test pilot. A FBW problem. Entry in service of F22 : 2005

Mirage G crash was in 1973.... far away these beautiful symbols of swedish and US tech'

But then what you do not seem to understand is,,, no matter Gripen prototype crashed... they did make it operational and they exported it.. right? G8 how many planes operational? How many did france buy and use?

 

[smestarz]

For my blind Smerdetarz :

Mirage 3

Rafale

Sur it's two planes. It's wo Delata one. For the rest, no comparison possible, except for a noob.

It is the same design, just made fatter for the twin engines and of course needs to be modified for canard.. else its Mirage III over and over again..

LCA and Naval LCA look different, but we dont as yet call them different names

 

[Tactical Frog]

But then what you do not seem to understand is,,, no matter Gripen prototype crashed... they did make it operational and they exported it.. right? G8 how many planes operational? How many did france buy and use?

Can you please check with wiki before posting random absurdly wrong data ... Not only two Gripen crashed during testing, but five in service crashed or were badly damaged at landing !