Know Your 'Rafale'

smestarz

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We gave you what you want. If our radar was not good enough, don't firmed this contract. But it was firmed, so....

You like size of nose.... (Tejas vs Rafale....). Nose of F16 smaller than Mirage. F16-50/52 have not aesa radar. So Mirage Radar better.
Now to explain some points to you and stop your bickering
A) Tejav vs Rafale,
Tejas has bigger nose and hence bigge radar can be fielded so more TRMs and hence it should detect Rafale at much longer distance than rafale can detect it. Tejas also has long ranged R-77 as of now,. Tthe longest range missile for Rafale as of now is MICA. R-77 outranges MICA and this is known as fact. By the time Rafale gets its 100 total units for METEOR 141 total planes (less than 1 per plane) IAF will be getting Longer ranged R-77 versions and also possibly K-77M which is under development. Incidentally K-77M has almost 50% more range than Meteor So, advantage Tejas.

Mirage vs F-16, YES, Mirage can detect F-16 Block 52 at longer range, but Mirages long range weapon is MICA where as F-16 uses AMRAAM AIM-120 C-5. AMRAAM outranges MICA again. So though Mirage might technically detect F-16, but Mirage will be within the range of F-16's missiles before it can fire at F-16
Advantage F-16.
That is the reason why in kargil Mirage 2000 were escorted by MiG-29
 

Bahamut

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Simulator are not a replacement for the real things ,they supplement it .IAF showed in Red flag that if pilot have 200+ hr of flying time that what are the capable of doing ,Rafale will have to have the no of flying time even with simulator as IAF will want pilot to master it.As for the source I have given the link .
@SajeevJino Some thing about IAF was serious wrong when it came to Su 30 MKI maintenance . By standard norms, a fighter fleet consumes five per cent of its worth in consumables and spares each year. By that benchmark the Su-30MKI fleet, currently worth about Rs 69,000 crore - 193 Su-30MKIs at Rs 358 crore a fighter - should consume spares worth Rs 3,450 crore annually. Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.
Link:http://www.business-standard.com/ar...mki-s-poor-serviceability-114102300006_1.html
The cost per flight hour i s complicated by this problem
 

Tactical Frog

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Bahamut

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@Tactical Frog ,@BON PLAN ,is there any plan on putting con-formal tanks or internal weapon storage for rafale and I was hearing that Dassult was ready to integrate Rafale with Israeli and Russian Weapons,.Is there any news on TVC engine and weather India van have TVC equipped Rafale if the deal is signed?
 

gadeshi

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@Tactical Frog ,@BON PLAN ,is there any plan on putting con-formal tanks or internal weapon storage for rafale and I was hearing that Dassult was ready to integrate Rafale with Israeli and Russian Weapons,.Is there any news on TVC engine and weather India van have TVC equipped Rafale if the deal is signed?
TVC engine doesn't make sense for aircrafts with so closely coupled engines. Unless it will be single-vector (up and down only).

External "stealth pods" will kill all the Rafale supersonic capabilities which are modest enough even now.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
 

smestarz

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Thanks for pointing me at this interesting piece...where I see no mention of the price of Tejas with its brand new AESA radar. If it get it right, this radar is still under development too and India will have to share development costs with Elta .
Tejas Radar will be co-developed, but seems it will be more of Elbit and less of indian contribution. In a way a re- branded Israeli radar produced in India. This is forum where members have to share information so that there is sharing of knowledge.
The price of Tejas was declared by defence minsiter in Parliament (in some reports)
 

Tactical Frog

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@Tactical Frog ,@BON PLAN ,is there any plan on putting con-formal tanks or internal weapon storage for rafale and I was hearing that Dassult was ready to integrate Rafale with Israeli and Russian Weapons,.Is there any news on TVC engine and weather India van have TVC equipped Rafale if the deal is signed?
French road map for Rafale is yet to be decided. Still having to complete fourth batch of 60 Rafale F3 starting being delivered from september 2013. This won't be finished before 2020-2021. Export orders are priority.
A fitfh batch of Rafale is in theory coming, but has not been ordered yet. At this stage, impossible to say or predict how this Rafale will look. There has been speculation on many things , but it is all speculation. What is certain is that you can always improve electronics !
India is getting 36 Rafale F3-R : today' s plane with new designation pod and Meteor. Integrating Brahmos , israeli missiles does not sound like "mission impossible" but it complicates negotiations ;-)
 

smestarz

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French road map for Rafale is yet to be decided. Still having to complete fourth batch of 60 Rafale F3 starting being delivered from september 2013. This won't be finished before 2020-2021. Export orders are priority.
A fitfh batch of Rafale is in theory coming, but has not been ordered yet. At this stage, impossible to say or predict how this Rafale will look. There has been speculation on many things , but it is all speculation. What is certain is that you can always improve electronics !
India is getting 36 Rafale F3-R : today' s plane with new designation pod and Meteor. Integrating Brahmos , israeli missiles does not sound like "mission impossible" but it complicates negotiations ;-)
You need to rephrase... INDIA was interested in F3R and the French are trying to get the deal done
The chances for deal being srapped are much higher
 

Tactical Frog

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You need to rephrase... INDIA was interested in F3R and the French are trying to get the deal done
The chances for deal being srapped are much higher
I am keeping a bottle of Cognac ready to open if this deal goes through after 9 years of epic up and downs.
One smart thing about the Rafale program so far is that older Rafale can always be upgraded to the latest standard. Even a Rafale M F1 standard from 2001 can be upgraded to standard F3-R, providing there is money for a new AESA RBE2.
 

smestarz

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I am keeping a bottle of Cognac ready to open if this deal goes through after 9 years of epic up and downs.
One smart thing about the Rafale program so far is that older Rafale can always be upgraded to the latest standard. Even a Rafale M F1 standard from 2001 can be upgraded to standard F3-R, providing there is money for a new AESA RBE2.
Just Cognac? I think IF the deal goes through, France would owe all its citizens a bottle of Champagne and maybe Russian caviar. But then I guess thats not happening, So, Cognac might be a better choice (uncertainity)
With the season of Mangoes coming up, If the govt announces that the deal is scrapped, I might go for a MANGO DAY... Mangoes to eat, Mango shake to drink..
 

BON PLAN

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India needs to get out of this Crazy French deal as soon as possible. Rafale is an unproven jet as it has not been to any real air combat. There is nothing more than looks in these jets. It has wasted a lot of time and simply weakened India's Air Force significantly. I applaud Mr. Parrikar's approach of giving Dussault a price that India wants to pay and shut off all negotiations, which has been nothing more that an exercise in futility. In a buyer's market, India should choose from a variety of highly qualified jets including those offered by Lockheed Martin and Boeing.
appart F15, F16, Mirage 2000, no actual west fighter were involved in a air to air combat. So SH18, Gripen, EF are unproven. It is your logic.
Same for SU27, SU30.
 

BON PLAN

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I knew you would say this very thing, maybe you should read the report more clearly. Now what exactly happend, here are some details for you, taken from another forum http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=755&start=15

What I have heard and seen from different sources indicates 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112. Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage-2000s took off from their forward base, turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, Turkish 2 F-16s (one C, one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time.

Turkish ground controller directed 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage-2000s to intercept them before Mirage-2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement.

F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with Lt Grivas. Back seater in Turkish F-16D was Lt Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Erdogan.

After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. it caused an explosion, put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col. Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly.

The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios and Col Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program.

This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that Grivas visited him in the hospital and apologized for his mistake which is "forgetting Arm Switch is ON". Rest is history...

Some Greeks argued that Grivas got orders from GCI and fired that missile but it is unlikely considering that that kind of order in peace time, and against a NATO ally. Also, there were rumors that Grivas thought he is under attack since F-16D locked its radar, then in self defense he fired a magic. This could not be true either. A NATO pilot should know a radar lock does not mean you are fired at (considering that there was no war but simulated dogfight). In addition F-16D was not armed considering it was a usual trainig flight.

After this incident Turkish side did not go to Aegean without weapons. In thousands of engagements in Aegean, each side locked radars on other side. It is not a scary thing to fire a missile to save yourself?

Only, good explanation to this whole incident is really Grivas forgot his Arm switch was on and fired it by mistake (I don?t also ignore the possibility that during the engagement, he could have lost his temper little bit, and went too far).

I should also add this, sometimes ROE mentioned by Greeks or some other people, claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and Grivas have had right to fire. But they forget that air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past, and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire...but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home...


Seems each time the French say "proven" their proven is very questionable, And since you did talk about the Mirage 2000 downing an F-16, this is how it happened. Apparently Mirage 2000 accidentally shot down F-16 Twin seat (mostly trainer) because the Safety switch was on by mistake. It is not strange that the french try to take credit for "proving" their planes in places like Libya or Mali where there are no capable air defence.
Fact is M2000 shoot F16 and non the contrary.
A Magic fired accidentaly??? ha ha ha....

Twin seat F16 mainly for training? FALSE. M2000 D or N are trainers? A twin seat front fighter is mainly use in very high intensity combat, like AtoG with AtoA threat, or used as a command post.
 

BON PLAN

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Now to explain some points to you and stop your bickering
A) Tejav vs Rafale,
Tejas has bigger nose and hence bigge radar can be fielded so more TRMs and hence it should detect Rafale at much longer distance than rafale can detect it. Tejas also has long ranged R-77 as of now,. Tthe longest range missile for Rafale as of now is MICA. R-77 outranges MICA and this is known as fact. By the time Rafale gets its 100 total units for METEOR 141 total planes (less than 1 per plane) IAF will be getting Longer ranged R-77 versions and also possibly K-77M which is under development. Incidentally K-77M has almost 50% more range than Meteor So, advantage Tejas.

Mirage vs F-16, YES, Mirage can detect F-16 Block 52 at longer range, but Mirages long range weapon is MICA where as F-16 uses AMRAAM AIM-120 C-5. AMRAAM outranges MICA again. So though Mirage might technically detect F-16, but Mirage will be within the range of F-16's missiles before it can fire at F-16
Advantage F-16.
That is the reason why in kargil Mirage 2000 were escorted by MiG-29
It's not because AdlA only ordered 100 Meteor than for another Customer this is not a strong point to have it.

K77M is at best on the drawing board. Wait to see it really and compare datas, if datas are available.

M2000-5 training combat vs F16 with AMRAAM are not as you describe it. Pk of AMRAAM is low, M2000 is more discret than F16, ....
 

BON PLAN

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@Tactical Frog ,@BON PLAN ,is there any plan on putting con-formal tanks or internal weapon storage for rafale and I was hearing that Dassult was ready to integrate Rafale with Israeli and Russian Weapons,.Is there any news on TVC engine and weather India van have TVC equipped Rafale if the deal is signed?
Conformal tanks on Rafale were tested in 1999. No problem. But France doesn't need it, so moothballed.
upload_2016-2-28_18-50-27.jpeg


Internal storage? Not on this version. Maybe in a Super Rafale.

But instead they studied stealth containers. Only for day 1 AtoG raids.
upload_2016-2-28_18-51-56.jpeg


Integrate others weapons? YES. ASTRA by exemple. And others if these suppliers are OK....

TVC ? absolutely no study. Too complex, too heavy, too costly and NO NEED !!!
 

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smestarz

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Fact is M2000 shoot F16 and non the contrary.
A Magic fired accidentaly??? ha ha ha....

Twin seat F16 mainly for training? FALSE. M2000 D or N are trainers? A twin seat front fighter is mainly use in very high intensity combat, like AtoG with AtoA threat, or used as a command post.
Why would two NATO countries engage in actual fight? Why would Turkey send a twin seater plane with a guy just returned from UK into combat?
Just read what the report says and if your bird brains can understand some bit you can understand it.

Thinking about what you said, YES, maybe M2000 shoots its missile accidentally.

BTW, suich incidents where a missile is fired accidentally is documented. Try to search for USS Forrestal and you will see perhaps the most famous incident.
Aircraft Electromagnetic Interference Could Accidentally Fire .

That would make M2000 a very unpredictable aircraft, No wonder IAF was not using these planes much (less than 140 hrs a year)
 

smestarz

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Capital outlay for modernization goes down in this Budget.. No money for Rafale ??
Why seems so surprised? The price is not even close, Difference of 30% and dont expect India to cross the bridge anymore, Now even IAF would not have the balls to say "we want Rafale ...la la la" then see how people will start to react considering how well informed people are. Surely you do not want to see IAF top bosses to explain that if Rafale is such a wonderful plane, why would it be facing Pakistan and not China?
 

Bahamut

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Thanks,India might require both TVC and conformal tank asthey increase range and TVC increases safety and performance.Is it possible to fit another engine in Rafale ,make it similarly to Su 30mki ,a specialised version for India to reduce the cost and make better suited to are needs.
 

smestarz

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Thanks,India might require both TVC and conformal tank asthey increase range and TVC increases safety and performance.Is it possible to fit another engine in Rafale ,make it similarly to Su 30mki ,a specialised version for India to reduce the cost and make better suited to are needs.
TVC is not something that will be advantageous to all designs, For example givingTVC to Jaguare might be disaster. Conformal Fuel tanks (CFT) they increase the range yes but there penalties of Weight and also performance Thus, CFT can increase range, but it will affect speed and maneuverability. So CFT is ok for a plane that has advantage of long range weaponry or which is a strike plane and not supposed to dogfight. But when the role or the mission for the plane may involve WVR combat, that time its extra fats.
Tri engne Rafale? That might need redesigning the plane.
 

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