Know Your 'Rafale'

[SajeevJino]

Cannot quote. Ask the minister if you have doubts.

I just called Defense minister ..he didn't picking the phone ..anyway let me email him

You are a champion of disinformation. Your posts are full of lies. Who pays you?

you know that it's the Yankee's. oh wait the French's ..I'm advocating for Mirage 2000 isn't

 

[SajeevJino]

Few things I would like to tell you Mirage 2000 does not suck yet, but its not a plane that we are happy to get in 2040 and say "wow we can take this to war" thats 25 years from now, And if Mirage 2000 is perfect for war then I am sure we should do same for MiG-21. So as of now Mirage 2000 isworth scrap. Whatever technology it can come up with, it cannot face PAF premier planes F-16 Block 52, PLAAF will be humping it wild .

Feel bad, IAF don't have expert viewers like you ..
Why they upgraded the Mirage for $2 billions .. because they are not capable to face Paki falcon's.

oh wait, we can keep the Mig 29 with upgrades, and buy more 2nd MiG 29 hand from Russia. reason is it's made by Russia.

How exactly is landing on highway useful? Dude, Indian cities have more cars than some european countries
Sweden has limitations on land and hence they require it. And yes Swedish are more organised.

Yey IAF are you listening, do not try this again, we have more cars in roads.. go to runway

Few things we should ask.. why do we need a plane to land on highway? Because it has snag? It can fly to nearest airport or air base. And by the way preparing the highway for plane is not going to be easy
What abt security? Also if the plane lands on highway, what do we do with it? Refuel and rearm there? So from the air base trucks have to be sent to refuel and rearm it. Also for the plane to land, both sides of high way should be blocked

Try to undestand between the lines
IAF did that only to try to show govt the capability of Mirage 2000. so as to try and suggest Govt to get Rafales. By the way, after that how many times did the plane land? And if you see , it was touch and go, F/A-18 have done that on carrier which is almost as wide as highways.

Even Tejas can land on highways. During WW2 planes took off from grounds. It was only publicity stunt by IAF to promote Dassault. nothing else, and it did not work.

By the way, if you think of it. Taking off and landing is stupidity specially in times of war, It is only good as publicyt stunt. IT is same as a guy who cannot swim opting to buy a watch thats 100 m water resistant

Great stunt by IAF, the commanders officers, Home ministry officials, highway dept officials all were paid by Dassault to perform the stunt ..

You could be awesome journalist like the bellingcat

 

[SajeevJino]

Kalvari : what the hell is exactly the problem with this sub ... It is looking good on pictures You could be proud of getting Scorpene subs, i never hear any Scorpene bashing from Malaysia or Chili .

Solidarity with Russia ..you didn't give the Mistrals to immortal Putin,

So we have to blame the French Scorpene is bad and not performing well, poorly designed, lack of spares and etc

our Russian lovers ready sacrifice India to save Putin's A$$

 

[Bahamut]

Su 30 MkI is a heavy fighter and IAF uses Su 30 MKI things which rafale can not do like flying from eastern frontier to western to simulate 2 front war and as a result requires more maintenance.Upgraded Mirage 2000,Jaguar and Mig 29 are more then ok to reduce the load on Su 30 MKI .Problem with Rafale is cost plus no ToT. Had it been Mig 35 or F 18 Hornet ,the planes would in service now.What about joining the Korean Fighter X program ,will it not be a better choice as we get full technology plus it our own plane ,no condition attached .After tens years when time comes to replace Mirage and Mig 29 we can built those planes.As for T 90 ,Army went for it as it can be used in Mountains ,Jungles and is easier to maintain and is cheaper .It is a more versatile with more mobility and better weapons options .
As for Su 30 MKI flying time for 240 hr a year.In early 2013 the French Air Force adopted radical new training methods to deal with such cuts. Rather than cut the flying time of all pilots by 17 percent (from 180 hours a year to 150), half the pilots would remain at 180 hours while the other half would be reduced to 40 hours in combat aircraft (like the Rafale) and another 140 hours in a high-end jet trainer aircraft (that are much cheaper to operate than the Rafale, or similar aircraft). If there were a major war and the second line pilots were needed they would undergo 60-90 days of intense training in the Rafale, amounting to over a hundred hours of flight time, the French air force leaders believe would make them roughly equal to the first line pilots in terms of capability.
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Fighter-Pilots-Doomed-By-Poverty-1-16-2014.asp
Even the Russian are coming back to 200+hr for pilot after failure of similar as it makes better pilots but downside is more maintenance and less availability,please make a choice a better pilot or more availability of jet . Does any one has cost of flying of rafale and Su 30 MKI ?

 

[BON PLAN]

French are trying to squeeze money from us to save their economy. They we're the lowest bidder in the game that's why we selected them but now with all those prices it must be a big NO. 36 rafales ain't good enough it might be hard for the French but that's how the business is done in India. Either you deliver with lowest price or we go with some one else. They acting like there is nothing equal to rafales

French state has a debt of 2000 billions..... it's not a Rafale deal that can change something.... And you are not known to be a rich country, as UAE or Qatar or....

 

[BON PLAN]

So as of now Mirage 2000 isworth scrap. Whatever technology it can come up with, it cannot face PAF premier planes F-16 Block 52, PLAAF will be humping it wild

Newer version of Mirage 2000 is at least at the F16-50 level. Ask Greek pilots....

And remember a greek mirage 2000 shoot a turkisf F16-50. not the reverse....

 

[BON PLAN]

Su 30 MkI is a heavy fighter and IAF uses Su 30 MKI things which rafale can not do like flying from eastern frontier to western to simulate 2 front war and as a result requires more maintenance.Upgraded Mirage 2000,Jaguar and Mig 29 are more then ok to reduce the load on Su 30 MKI .Problem with Rafale is cost plus no ToT. Had it been Mig 35 or F 18 Hornet ,the planes would in service now.What about joining the Korean Fighter X program ,will it not be a better choice as we get full technology plus it our own plane ,no condition attached .After tens years when time comes to replace Mirage and Mig 29 we can built those planes.As for T 90 ,Army went for it as it can be used in Mountains ,Jungles and is easier to maintain and is cheaper .It is a more versatile with more mobility and better weapons options .
As for Su 30 MKI flying time for 240 hr a year.In early 2013 the French Air Force adopted radical new training methods to deal with such cuts. Rather than cut the flying time of all pilots by 17 percent (from 180 hours a year to 150), half the pilots would remain at 180 hours while the other half would be reduced to 40 hours in combat aircraft (like the Rafale) and another 140 hours in a high-end jet trainer aircraft (that are much cheaper to operate than the Rafale, or similar aircraft). If there were a major war and the second line pilots were needed they would undergo 60-90 days of intense training in the Rafale, amounting to over a hundred hours of flight time, the French air force leaders believe would make them roughly equal to the first line pilots in terms of capability.
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Fighter-Pilots-Doomed-By-Poverty-1-16-2014.asp
Even the Russian are coming back to 200+hr for pilot after failure of similar as it makes better pilots but downside is more maintenance and less availability,please make a choice a better pilot or more availability of jet . Does any one has cost of flying of rafale and Su 30 MKI ?

Don't understand what you want to explain in a forum called "know your Rafale"....

 

[Bahamut]

Don't understand what you want to explain in a forum called "know your Rafale"....

Rafale deal is to expenses and without ToT and the diffrence in IAF and French Air force .Stop comparing Su 30 and rafale.

 

[smestarz]

you never know the Mirage upgrade fiasco ..read it in the mirage 2000 ..pretty old but more better information about the upgrades

Upgrades? Funny, Even with the French tech etc it does not come with an AESa, but the IAF has a nerve to ask Tejas for AESA, That being said, The price of NEW TEJAS with an AESA is much lower than upgrade price of Mirage 2000 that does not have an AESA or tech that will make it compete even with F-16 Block 52.. What upgrades are you talking of ? new coat of paint?
I have a bicycle, does not need an upgrade, Does not crash. Actually in a way it will be able to face planes of PLAAF as easily as Mirage 2000 and give same result to IAF. Anyone interested to upgrade by bicycle at US$ 1 million a pop?

 

[smestarz]

Don't understand what you want to explain in a forum called "know your Rafale"....

The title is "Know your Rafale" unfortunately it is both "unwanted and unrequired" So maybe the Mods should change the Tittle to just Dassault Rafale. This thread was started by a member when Rafale was declared L1, and perhaps he was too enthusiastic that India would buy the Rafale
We dont have and we dont want it.. not at the price you are offering and maybe not at any price.
If the topic changes to "know your Rafail" maybe it is interesting to some more people

 

[Tactical Frog]

As for Su 30 MKI flying time for 240 hr a year.In early 2013 the French Air Force adopted radical new training methods to deal with such cuts. Rather than cut the flying time of all pilots by 17 percent (from 180 hours a year to 150), half the pilots would remain at 180 hours while the other half would be reduced to 40 hours in combat aircraft (like the Rafale) and another 140 hours in a high-end jet trainer aircraft (that are much cheaper to operate than the Rafale, or similar aircraft). If there were a major war and the second line pilots were needed they would undergo 60-90 days of intense training in the Rafale, amounting to over a hundred hours of flight time, the French air force leaders believe would make them roughly equal to the first line pilots in terms of capability.
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/Fighter-Pilots-Doomed-By-Poverty-1-16-2014.asp
Even the Russian are coming back to 200 hr for pilot after failure of similar as it makes better pilots but downside is more maintenance and less availability,please make a choice a better pilot or more availability of jet . Does any one has cost of flying of rafale and Su 30 MKI ?

I am sceptical about your sources' accuracy. Never heard about half of Armee de l ' Air pilots flying only 40 hours in combat aircraft. Admittng that would be true ... we still have these top-notch simulators made by Dassault !!
Rafale per hour cost somewhere between € 9500 and 27000 according various methods of calculations ... in France.

 

[BON PLAN]

Upgrades? Funny, Even with the French tech etc it does not come with an AESa, but the IAF has a nerve to ask Tejas for AESA, That being said, The price of NEW TEJAS with an AESA is much lower than upgrade price of Mirage 2000 that does not have an AESA or tech that will make it compete even with F-16 Block 52.. What upgrades are you talking of ? new coat of paint?
I have a bicycle, does not need an upgrade, Does not crash. Actually in a way it will be able to face planes of PLAAF as easily as Mirage 2000 and give same result to IAF. Anyone interested to upgrade by bicycle at US$ 1 million a pop?

We gave you what you want. If our radar was not good enough, don't firmed this contract. But it was firmed, so....

You like size of nose.... (Tejas vs Rafale....). Nose of F16 smaller than Mirage. F16-50/52 have not aesa radar. So Mirage Radar better.

 

[BON PLAN]

The title is "Know your Rafale" unfortunately it is both "unwanted and unrequired" So maybe the Mods should change the Tittle to just Dassault Rafale. This thread was started by a member when Rafale was declared L1, and perhaps he was too enthusiastic that India would buy the Rafale
We dont have and we dont want it.. not at the price you are offering and maybe not at any price.
If the topic changes to "know your Rafail" maybe it is interesting to some more people

Open a new threads. If not stay on the subject please.

 

[Sam Biswas]

India needs to get out of this Crazy French deal as soon as possible. Rafale is an unproven jet as it has not been to any real air combat. There is nothing more than looks in these jets. It has wasted a lot of time and simply weakened India's Air Force significantly. I applaud Mr. Parrikar's approach of giving Dussault a price that India wants to pay and shut off all negotiations, which has been nothing more that an exercise in futility. In a buyer's market, India should choose from a variety of highly qualified jets including those offered by Lockheed Martin and Boeing.

 

[smestarz]

Newer version of Mirage 2000 is at least at the F16-50 level. Ask Greek pilots....

And remember a greek mirage 2000 shoot a turkisf F16-50. not the reverse....

I knew you would say this very thing, maybe you should read the report more clearly. Now what exactly happend, here are some details for you, taken from another forum http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=755&start=15

What I have heard and seen from different sources indicates 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112. Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage-2000s took off from their forward base, turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, Turkish 2 F-16s (one C, one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time.

Turkish ground controller directed 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage-2000s to intercept them before Mirage-2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement.

F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with Lt Grivas. Back seater in Turkish F-16D was Lt Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Erdogan.

After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. it caused an explosion, put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col. Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly.

The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios and Col Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program.

This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that Grivas visited him in the hospital and apologized for his mistake which is "forgetting Arm Switch is ON". Rest is history...

Some Greeks argued that Grivas got orders from GCI and fired that missile but it is unlikely considering that that kind of order in peace time, and against a NATO ally. Also, there were rumors that Grivas thought he is under attack since F-16D locked its radar, then in self defense he fired a magic. This could not be true either. A NATO pilot should know a radar lock does not mean you are fired at (considering that there was no war but simulated dogfight). In addition F-16D was not armed considering it was a usual trainig flight.

After this incident Turkish side did not go to Aegean without weapons. In thousands of engagements in Aegean, each side locked radars on other side. It is not a scary thing to fire a missile to save yourself?

Only, good explanation to this whole incident is really Grivas forgot his Arm switch was on and fired it by mistake (I don?t also ignore the possibility that during the engagement, he could have lost his temper little bit, and went too far).

I should also add this, sometimes ROE mentioned by Greeks or some other people, claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and Grivas have had right to fire. But they forget that air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past, and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire...but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home...

Seems each time the French say "proven" their proven is very questionable, And since you did talk about the Mirage 2000 downing an F-16, this is how it happened. Apparently Mirage 2000 accidentally shot down F-16 Twin seat (mostly trainer) because the Safety switch was on by mistake. It is not strange that the french try to take credit for "proving" their planes in places like Libya or Mali where there are no capable air defence.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Upgrades? Funny, Even with the French tech etc it does not come with an AESa, but the IAF has a nerve to ask Tejas for AESA, That being said, The price of NEW TEJAS with an AESA is much lower than upgrade price of Mirage 2000 that does not have an AESA or tech that will make it compete even with F-16 Block 52.. What upgrades are you talking of ? new coat of paint?
I have a bicycle, does not need an upgrade, Does not crash. Actually in a way it will be able to face planes of PLAAF as easily as Mirage 2000 and give same result to IAF. Anyone interested to upgrade by bicycle at US$ 1 million a pop?

You haven' t even started to seriously discuss prices of an AESA radar with Elbit i bet !

 

[smestarz]

Open a new threads. If not stay on the subject please.

It is on the subject.. Know Rafail is it not?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

upkeep cost of entire Su 30 MKI costs you nearly $500 million per year .. that's not included in the deal unlike the $9 billion Rafale which include MRO

Don't mix upkeep with only mro

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

upkeep cost of entire Su 30 MKI costs you nearly $500 million per year .. that's not included in the deal unlike the $9 billion Rafale which include MRO

Dasault is offering PBC for rafales at 5-6% of capital costs per year

HAL is also offering PBC for su30mki at 5% a year of capital costs

Now tell me which is lower
5% of 50 million
Or
5% of 80 million

And why is iaf not taking the PBC offer from HAL for su30mki with guaranteed availability rates and with penalty clauses for failure ?

 

[smestarz]

You haven' t even started to seriously discuss prices of an AESA radar with Elbit i bet !

I this article might explain the general view
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...pproval-for-tejas-fighter-115102500749_1.html