Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

India impressed with Jag's .. we are investing heavily. recently we added Harppon earlier CBU 105 .. in coming years AGM 88 .. currently Jag's in DARIN III modernization plan .. anyway we still negotiating with Honeywell for engines



SP start from 2018, India planning a twin production each can produce 12 to 14 per year

SP start from 2018, India planning a twin production each can produce 12 to 14 per year

Why not. Just one problem : the word "planning"... In india this word has a different signification than in the west. And specially in HAL mouth.

 

[Bahamut]

Rafale will be a sitting duck after Su 30 upgrade to Super Sukhoi standard ,I donot think rafale can do will be done better by Su 30 and if add Israeli weapon on it then it be more good for any one who think to attack India and after PAK FA there will be no need for it . MRCA was suppose to get a fighter capable of reducing the load on Su 30 but after after spending a fortune on Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 upgrade and the planned Jaguar upgrade I do not think Rafale has any use .It is a good plane but way to expensive and as for F 15 SE,USA in said to Singapore ,Saudi Arabia and South Korea to buy F 15 SE or they will integrate the sub system in the other plane .They did the same with Indonesia but it failed.In one case South Korea declared F 35 winner in tender with out testing the other planes.We can localized maintenance of Su 30 MKI then it reduce the cost also.I am sure that by the end of this year in IAF Su 30 MKI availability will be higher then 75 % in worst case scenario .Part of the problem is was the over use of Su 30 ,they were flying twice the no of hour the are designed to fly in a year .

 

[BON PLAN]

Funny thing is the Jag is about to recieve a better AESA than on the Rafale

you think so? strange.... a powerfull aesa radar in such a so small nose....

 

[Immanuel]

will be. In indian word it means all and its contrary.

Boeing canceled a contracct furniture of spares due to lack in quality. And I don't think it wass for high tech components. So before you can produce mono cristal blade or very sophisticated electronics cards, even russian ones, it will take some times.

Quit your whining, Boeing cancelled a contract with HAL but continues to source from others in India. HAL is assembling the MKI, even the MKI has many private partners supplying to the line. There are plenty of local players to take up production of other parts. I am not sure HAL even has the capacity right now to take up other things than assembly, hence even the LCA will have a lot of private suppliers.

 

[BON PLAN]

yes along with Mirage .. and I sure some western analysts too confirmed that Jags are better than it's successor Tornado

NO, Bro. Tornado is more powerfull than Jag. Heavier, longer leg, with a large panel of weapons.

Don't remember the genesis of Jag : it was a school plane when studied. And after that it became a light CAS fighter. It remain a light plane when Tornado is a medium one.

 

[Immanuel]

you think so? strange.... a powerfull aesa radar in such a so small nose....

The Jag's nose cose is big enough for the EL2052

 

[BON PLAN]

This is exactly why you are dim wit, I said LCA MK-1 asshole, READ!!! The MK-1A sqd will be delivered by 2020. Again, you little turd, the orders for 80 LCA MK-1A already done, as said before the AESA, podded EW suite and IFR will be a production fix on production fighters. They will drop the weight on the landing gear with the help of EADS.

OK, I apologize for MK1 and MK1A.

This Tejas MK1.... it is the one over weighted or after Weight & Wetcher cure ? Sure you can qualify it until one year .... and you forget also that the forging components for a langing rear are one of the longest lead time of the whole plane... 4 years at least.

So 1 year of study (it's very very optimistic) + 4 years lead time = 2021 for the beginning.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Jag's nose cose is big enough for the EL2052

and smaller than Rafale one....

and I don't forget Tejas nose is biggerrrrrrr so as I'm sure indian genius can put inside a famous SU mki radar

 

[Immanuel]

OK, I apologize for MK1 and MK1A.

This Tejas MK1.... it is the one over weighted or after Weight & Wetcher cure ? Sure you can qualify it until one year .... and you forget also that the forging components for a langing rear are one of the longest lead time of the whole plane... 4 years at least.

So 1 year of study (it's very very optimistic) + 4 years lead time = 2021 for the beginning.

Tejas MK-1 is overweight, MK-1A will be lighter. The weight reduction excercise has already begun, once the parts are qualified, they will be ordered ahead. The main changes for the MK-1A requested by the IAF are not even weight reduction, that is something HAL aims to achieve with the help of EADS. The key items that IAF wants are AESA, podded EW suite, IFR. The remaning items are for ease of maintenance issues. Also as said, they are actively looking to set-up another line with a production rate of around 24, so around 100. Also HAL won't take a year to qualify the landing gear, as this is a production fit, it will be tested in production.

 

[Immanuel]

and smaller than Rafale one....

and I don't forget Tejas nose is biggerrrrrrr so as I'm sure indian genius can put inside a famous SU mki radar

Well as long as the EL-2052 fits, it won't matter since its still a better radar than that on the Rafale.

 

[SajeevJino]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ty-could-go-up-to-75/articleshow/50075387.cms

Agreements have been signed with Russia to have lower response times for spares requests and faster deliveries. Russia will guarantee upto 75% availability. Secondly the remaing 5% will come with IAF holding more spares on hands at various BRDs. The fact is, availability depends entirely on the cost. Guranteed availability rates above 75% are usually quite expensive and there was price haggling going on with Russia over this between 2013-2015 but finally another ROH facility came up at HAL and things are progressing. Also the IAF uses its MKI out to over 270-300 hrs a year, which is plenty of wear and tear on any aircraft.

332 components or LRUs are still made in Russia and they will soon be Made in India under TOT.

From the link

"A delegation from the Indian defence ministry is expected in the second half of December and we hope to have a positive decision and sign the contract at the soonest," Valery V Chishchevoy, Marketing Director of Sukhoi told ET.

did we signed the contract .. nope

There is a possibility that the availability of the fleet could touch the magical figure of 75 percent.

I've to tell one thing ..keeping 75% service availability known best figure in Aviation, and we need more than three years to achieve this ..

 

[SajeevJino]

Sorry but hogwash, its one thing to shoot down Cayote like simulated missiles and a whole different thing to shoot down a Brahmos launched in a LO-LO-LO trajectory with terminal maneuvers at mach 3. Dream on. Most ships can't pick it up in such a firing solution, flying around 5-10 m above surface.

Okay you saying, Brahmos can't be intercepted, due to it's high speed, and low reaction time, anyway soon we can see those Brahmos parents can be intercepted by Western systems in Mediterranean theater.

The F-15s are great fighters and there is no doubt about it but the MKI in a pure fighter vs fighter scenario is a better fighter because it has the added advantage of being super maneuverable. F-15 is a better fighter bomber

Please are you listening ... there is no more dog fighting

 

[BON PLAN]

Cockpit confusion
Stop chasing France’s Rafale: India’s air warriors can’t fly on foreign wings forever

The Indian Air Force’s requirement for a medium multi-role combat aircraft continues to remain unfulfilled.


In the early 2000s, the IAF decided that the logical answer to its problems of obsolescence, attrition, and declining fleet strength was to induct additional numbers of the single-engined Mirage 2000. This aircraft had an excellent safety and serviceability record, and played a decisive role in the Kargil conflict. With a few changes and upgrades, Vayu Bhavan felt that it could become the future multi-role aircraft—not only bridging the gap between the heavyweight Sukhoi Su-30 and the light-weight Tejas, but also compensating for the eventual de-induction of MiG-21s.

However, there was a fly in the ointment. Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, was now producing a more advanced variant—the Mirage 2000-5. Dassault was also on the verge of closing down the entire Mirage 2000 production line unless it had some orders.

The joint secretaries in the defence ministry refused to treat the IAF proposal as merely a “repeat order on a past supplier” as envisaged in the “fast track procedure” of Defence Procurement Procedure 2006. They insisted that as the Mirage 2000-5 was an entirely “new” aircraft, the IAF should follow the standard process of drawing up an air staff requirement, and then floating a request for proposal.


Ironies unlimited
The irony is that if the IAF was willing to settle for the older Mirage 2000 instead of the Mirage 2000-5, it could have got the fighters under existing rules. But that is like wanting to buy a discontinued motorcar model when the latest was already in the market.

The Mirage 2000 acquisition, too, has a bit of a history. When the original deal was signed, the “intention to proceed” contract was for an initial order of 40 aircraft for outright purchase in fly-away condition and an option to produce another 110 aircraft in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in Bengaluru with total technology transfer. If this plan were carried forward, the IAF would not have needed the MiG-29. But, in 1984, the then defence minister R Venkatraman visited Moscow and, shortly after his return, stated in Parliament that India was going to select a “futuristic aircraft to meet the challenge posed by the presence of the F-16 in a neighbouring country.” The inference was clearly with regard to the MiG-29.

The other irony of this was that the justification for the Mirage 2000 acquisition was also because of the US’ decision to give Pakistan the latest F-16 fighters.

How the Mirage 2000 came to be is also an interesting story. In the mid-1970s, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation was finalising a future fighter. The competition was between the Dassault Mirage F-1 and America’s General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon. The F-16 got the order. Dassault then developed the more versatile Mirage 2000 to beat the F-16 at its own game. The first Mirage 2000 flew in 1982, and the first lot of IAF Mirage 2000s landed in Gwalior in 1984. Incidentally, Rajiv Gandhi, then a newly elected member of Parliament and Congress general secretary, saw it put through its paces at the Paris Airshow. He was very impressed. He sat in on the official meeting in the ministry of defence that decided to acquire Mirage 2000. Gandhi had just become a qualified Boeing 737 pilot and this was presumably considered expertise enough.

Nevertheless, the deal to make 110 more Mirage 2000s in Bengaluru made eminent sense—both for the IAF and the economy. But it was dropped no sooner than when the first lot of 40 fighters in a flyaway condition were delivered. Why this deal was terminated remains a mystery, but one reason was certainly the price. The MiG -29 was available to India at Rs5 crore a unit, while the Mirage 2000 cost double that.

Replacing MiG-21 and MiG-27
The Indian Air Force will soon retire several squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27 jets at the end of their life cycle. Replacing these aged fighters will be the latest Su-30MKI, a 4+ generation long endurance air dominance fighter, now being assembled by HAL.

The MiG-21 is a short endurance lightweight and high-speed interceptor with limited ground attack capability. The Russians describe it as a frontal aviation aircraft. The Sukhoi, being an air dominance fighter, can perform both these roles, as well as undertake deep penetration strikes. The Su-30 is a Mercedes Benz SUV compared to the MIG-21’s Maruti 800. Now let’s say the IAF wants to intercept a Pakistan Air Force or People’s Liberation Army Air Force JF-17. The IAF’s fighter of choice for this is likely to be a MiG-21bis rather than the Su-30MKI. While the Sukhoi can do the job effectively, sending a 4+generation aircraft weighing in at over 18 tonnes against a much older and cheaper JF-17 weighing less than 6.5 tonnes would not only be overkill but also very cost ineffective.

 

[BON PLAN]

[Please are you listening ... there is no more dog fighting[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure.
High intensity war =>
- air full of electronic jamming.
- Air full of planes. Foe and.... friend !
- Long range situation will changing fast.
- West country need to avoid civilian and friend casualties, so a positiv identification requested before fire.

So I think short range will be frequent, so as to be sure not firing a friend. No with canon, but with short range missile.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well as long as the EL-2052 fits, it won't matter since its still a better radar than that on the Rafale.

And, of course, you have proof to say so.

Remember Israelis gave Lavi's plan to China to help them to developp J10. just an exemple.

Are you sur they don't give them some news about... radars and missile ?

 

[garg_bharat]

And, of course, you have proof to say so.

Remember Israelis gave Lavi's plan to China to help them to developp J10. just an exemple.

Are you sur they don't give them some news about... radars and missile ?

Your tone and tenor are frivolous and none of it really make Rafale's case.

We control neither Israel nor France. Any country is free to deal with another country. This is irrelevant.

LCA program is not related to Rafale either.

The issue is simple that the deal is not moving forward.

 

[smestarz]

You don't have 5 years of spares ! Imagine russia stopped sending spares, you are in big trouble.
It's all what I say.
You have US stuff, like Apache and P8I, but no fighters.

Are you going to talk of IFs and Buts? IF the russians dont send spares? BTW do you know that each Su-30 MKI has two spare engines so, IF Russia stops sending spares.. not an immediate problem. Also after the problem with MiG-21 crashes, which was related to cheap spares imported, GoI is now working closely with some israeli companies that are producing the spares. So Indian MiG-21has a lot of non russian spares in it. We can always do that for Su-30 MKI.

 

[smestarz]

Mirage 2000 : 50 units. few.
Jag : how many? but in the end of life.
Mig 29 : how many? and russian.
Mig 21/27 : phasing out.

SU is the backbone of your air defense. You need anotheer supplier plane.

Mirage 2000 : Already as outdated as MiG-21, and its being upgraded because it is one of the plane that did well in Kargil and IAF is nostalgic about it, As of now, MiG-29 UPG and Su-30 MKI are also given Strike roles along with that of Air dominance,

MiG-29, about 59, and being upgraded to UPG standard. As I understand 6 aleady upgraded. And these become as capable as Rafale and and since IAF is bothered about weight, then its lighter than Rafail.

Mirage 2000 we had 51, and after signing the upgrade contract, two crashed.. and at least one crashed due to engine failure. So much for the reliability of French engine. BTW Mirage 2000 that is being upgraded, the last one will be completed by 2040.. It will be the first upgraded cannon fodder paid by IAF. Brilliant.

BTW, as per admin here Mirage 2000 in IAF fllies roughly 100-150 hours a year, lets take the higher
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/iaf-fighter-pilots-annual-flying-hours.28942/#post-377008
The first lot of Mirage 2000 arrived in 1984, and the two crashed in 2011. Thats engine hours of 4000 hours.
17 years. See, how much less the IAF is flying the reliable Mirage 2000, and on other hand Su-30 MKI completed 4000 hours in 17 years.. So IAF calls Mirage 2000 a nice plane, but its sparingly used as compared to Su-30 MKI
That is the difference between nicely designed french planes and Robust Russian planes. Russian have a simple doctrine, during a war (when the plane has to prove itself) there will not be ideal air fields, or everything nice, Those planes are designed to be robust and to take any sort of handling.

 

[smestarz]

Your tone and tenor are frivolous and none of it really make Rafale's case.

We control neither Israel nor France. Any country is free to deal with another country. This is irrelevant.

LCA program is not related to Rafale either.

The issue is simple that the deal is not moving forward.

In a way that is showing how desperate rafale fanboys are getting. The deal has aleady slipped out, and come april it will be just allowed to die a natural death.

 

[smestarz]

Well if the gates open France will be the first in the West to sell to China, for years France has been wanting to lift the ban of sale of weapons to China. It's ok, we can manage our own friendships thank you

The French in a way are now experts in trying to blackmail countries. We had Mirage 2000 upgrade on similar track, The tone of the Rafale fan boys are of same arrogant french attitude. Even this Rafale discussion, the way the french are behaving, they know that IAF top brass has their heart set on it. So there is no need for the French to budge on the price, they have the drooling IAF which has given too many irresponsible statments specially when discussion is on. Presently the IAF chief has been asked to keep his comments to himself as those comments will affect (Already have) the discussion.
On the other side the Russians have reduced the prices for PAKFA. So in a way making business with russia is better because our economies are such that there is actual chances of price reduction.
France will not be able to sell top tech to China, France knows for sure that if they sell something to China, then the tech will be copied and available general in span of few years. Rather the chinese with their expertise can make it better and cheaper than french can. So France should go and sell highly sensitive defence products to China !!