Know Your 'Rafale'

[garg_bharat]

It is a mischievous title by TOI. The budgetary allocation is for purchasing mmrca & Subs. Rafalla is just a candidate aircraft and subject to signing of the final agreement. Probably Rafalla will fall through if Dassault fails to freeze the deal at $7-8 billion or raise the offset to 50% of the agreed price.

I think offered amount is 9B Euro. The news is that French are asking 11B Euro. So government is ready to pay 10B USD for 36 planes. These are completely made in France. I doubt there are any offsets.

 

[Tactical Frog]

I have a feeling Dassault may be merged with a much bigger entity by 2019-20 when it is scheduled to start delivery of Rafalla to India, and India will have to renegotiate the deal. Dassault lacks financial muscle to scale up production, stocking of spares and supplies for clients, MRO etc.
We have seen many smaller players like Hughes Aircraft, Northrop Corp, McDonnell Douglas etc. being cannibalised by much bigger companies.

Not going to happen. Dassault is much bigger as a player than you think in the european defence sector. They have a 26 % stake in Thales, and actual control of the company. . Thales itself controls DCNS with 35 % stake. That way the Dassault family is very central to the French defense industry.

 

[sasum]

I think offered amount is 9B Euro. The news is that French are asking 11B Euro. So government is ready to pay 10B USD for 36 planes. These are completely made in France. I doubt there are any offsets.

I give a link to the final offer made by MoD to Dassault. It is $7 billion, not €. Euro costs more and India never negotiates in other currencies. There is insistence on offset investment of 50% of the value of contract. It need not be Rafalla or related components though.
http://m.rediff.com/news/special/revealed-price-is-holding-up-the-rafale-deal/20160126.htm
Of course I believe both parties are still willing to give/ take more quarters. French needs this order more than us; it will set a bench-mark price for negotiating with other countries.

 

[Bornubus]

So what is really the problem?

The problem is that you failed to understand what tin buckets means in the army,it isn't BMP 2.

As for T 72 there won't be any more upgrade these 72s already upgraded to CIA standard with 1000 HP engine and Night fighting capabilities among other things.

 

[garg_bharat]

I give a link to the final offer made by MoD to Dassault. It is $7 billion, not €. Euro costs more and India never negotiates in other currencies. There is insistence on offset investment of 50% of the value of contract. It need not be Rafalla or related components though.
http://m.rediff.com/news/special/revealed-price-is-holding-up-the-rafale-deal/20160126.htm
Of course I believe both parties are still willing to give/ take more quarters. French needs this order more than us; it will set a bench-mark price for negotiating with other countries.

Rediff is not a very good source.

 

[garg_bharat]

The problem is that you failed to understand what tin buckets means in the army,it isn't BMP 2.

As for T 72 there won't be any more upgrade these 72s already upgraded to CIA standard with 1000 HP engine and Night fighting capabilities among other things.

Why Army cannot upgrade BMP-2?
Logically that makes sense ($800M) until FICV arrives on the scene.

How many T-72 have received upgrades? I quoted T-72B3 due to its better protection. What about counter-measures against ATGMs?

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas will evolve and into something much bigger and better than Rafale. Rafale will drain India's budget after sabotaging India's Air Force over many years and will be outdated before it even joins IAF. Then India will be forced to pay more to France for MLU. India will get into a vicious cycle by getting into this Rafale deal. In addition, Dussault is not a high throughput manufacturer to fulfill India's needs. I believe Indian PM and DM are slowly getting out of this deal.

You're a dreamer !
Tejas is always on study. Actual version is over weighted. It will remain a light, single engine fighter.
It will never be a tejaF 22 !!!

STOP DREAMING.

 

[Immanuel]

Okay you saying, Brahmos can't be intercepted, due to it's high speed, and low reaction time, anyway soon we can see those Brahmos parents can be intercepted by Western systems in Mediterranean theater.
Please are you listening ... there is no more dog fighting

Brahmos for the time frame out to 2030 is virtually unstoppable, quite simply because Brahmos when used against very high value targets like Carriers will be launched in salvos, use clever waypoints that allow for multiple missiles simulatenously impacting the target from various directions, use lo-lo-lo trajectories flying barely under 10 meters(will be hard to detect till last minute in the 1st place), its possible one or two are shot down by CIWS/Anti-air but some will get through.

Simply speaking even older super sonic missiles like Club are quite hard to intercept because of clever use of tactics and they aren't even manuevering.

Quite silly thing to say the least about no dogfighting, you have little or no clue of what you're talking about. Dogfighting in this day and age is quite important as cutting edge EW suites, jammers etc can often negate the use of missiles or severly deplete their full potential.

 

[BON PLAN]

AdlA ordering 100 missiles for 141 planes is really surprising and when you say that it ordered it for some other customer is more funny

Where have you seen we ordrerd it for other customers?
Dassault need to have it integrated on Rafale so as not to leave EF and Gripen sole to have it.
AdlA will only use it to protect awacs, tanker, and to protect carrier. Not nore, because this range is unsuitable. That's all.

 

[Immanuel]

From the link
did we signed the contract .. nope

I've to tell one thing ..keeping 75% service availability known best figure in Aviation, and we need more than three years to achieve this ..

It won't take 3 years since the key changes needed to have 75% have already been implemented. The main reason was for IAF to hold more spares on hand at BRDs, the need of more maintanence facilties to be set-up by HAL and additinal spares agreements with Russia. IAF has already started holding more spares (implemented started already end 2014, hence the current availability is already 65%, HAL has opened a couple more facilties that will allow it to overhaul, maintain and repair more aircraft faster and get them back flying and now finally Russia will have shorter delivery schedules for spares related to the 332 components made in Russia, eventually they will also be made in India under TOT, the process is ongoing. Needless to say 75% can be quite easily achived by end of year, 80% can be achived once local manufacture of those remaining begins in India.

 

[Bahamut]

Stop comparing Rafale , Su 30 mki or Tejas they all belong to different class and as different primary role .The only problem with Rafale is it cost and no ToT and without ToT ,India will never buy more then 36 jet ,they sooner Dassult understand it the better,we can all way go to Mig 35 or KFX if needed .As for Su 30 MKI availability it will be higher then 75 % by the end of the year ,I have even given a link for it.As for Metro ,if we can add Russian and Israeli missile , then who need that expensive shit .

 

[Tactical Frog]

Where have you seen we ordrerd it for other customers?
Dassault need to have it integrated on Rafale so as not to leave EF and Gripen sole to have it.
AdlA will only use it to protect awacs, tanker, and to protect carrier. Not nore, because this range is unsuitable. That's all.

Sound strategy. You dont want to shoot at airliners or friendly assets

 

[smestarz]

You're a dreamer !
Tejas is always on study. Actual version is over weighted. It will remain a light, single engine fighter.
It will never be a tejaF 22 !!!

STOP DREAMING.

You really need to wake up and see the reality.. oh wait, you are now feeling threatened by Tejas !!!!
Tejas in a way will mature soon, It is not on study dear boy, its reality, Already IAF orders Tejas, The navy is buying N-LCA and after FOC, it will be available for exports. Even in its present form its almost 90% as capable as Rafale at Fraction of price!! I think Tejas will replace F-16 like planes in some countries. Too bad the French order book will never be filled.
All of the sudden with the Rafale being declared as L1 there was an interest in Rafale all over the world, and when Modi asked for 36 planes, there was order from egypt, but then we are not really buying the plane, We just suckered egypt into buying it.
Now in countries that are looking for a reliable MRCA at very reasonable cost, Tejas will be the obviious choice

 

[smestarz]

Not going to happen. Dassault is much bigger as a player than you think in the european defence sector. They have a 26 % stake in Thales, and actual control of the company. . Thales itself controls DCNS with 35 % stake. That way the Dassault family is very central to the French defense industry.

And without more orders for Rafale the cost per plane will be high and then the stocks of Dassault or Thailes or DCNS will not be rising

 

[garg_bharat]

And without more orders for Rafale the cost per plane will be high and then the stocks of Dassault or Thailes or DCNS will not be rising

I don't think buying Dassault shares gives any benefit.

As I said before, the issue with Rafale remains its high price. The MOD has to juggle many things.

India cannot depend on a single product or a single supplier. The politics of the world is complex and no supplier can be fully relied upon.

To this end, the first priority is domestic production. The imports will depend on long term viability.

 

[smestarz]

I don't think buying Dassault shares gives any benefit.

As I said before, the issue with Rafale remains its high price. The MOD has to juggle many things.

India cannot depend on a single product or a single supplier. The politics of the world is complex and no supplier can be fully relied upon.

To this end, the first priority is domestic production. The imports will depend on long term viability.

But russia has been a reliable partner than France which has a nice history of running back with tail between their legs.. READ ARGENTINA AND RUSSIA

 

[BON PLAN]

You really need to wake up and see the reality.. oh wait, you are now feeling threatened by Tejas !!!!
Tejas in a way will mature soon, It is not on study dear boy, its reality, Already IAF orders Tejas, The navy is buying N-LCA and after FOC, it will be available for exports. Even in its present form its almost 90% as capable as Rafale at Fraction of price!! I think Tejas will replace F-16 like planes in some countries. Too bad the French order book will never be filled.
All of the sudden with the Rafale being declared as L1 there was an interest in Rafale all over the world, and when Modi asked for 36 planes, there was order from egypt, but then we are not really buying the plane, We just suckered egypt into buying it.
Now in countries that are looking for a reliable MRCA at very reasonable cost, Tejas will be the obviious choice

words usually used to speak of Tejas : "soon", "already", "is buying (but not yet)", "drawing board", "over weighted", "almost as", "in late" ....

About the sell of Rafale to Egypte : bargaining begins in september 2014, firm order signed in january 2015. Modi came in france in april 2015. => Don't modify history to comply to your thinking please.

 

[garg_bharat]

words usually used to speak of Tejas : "soon", "already", "is buying (but not yet)", "drawing board", "over weighted", "almost as", "in late" ....

About the sell of Rafale to Egypte : bargaining begins in september 2014, firm order signed in january 2015. Modi came in france in april 2015. => Don't modify history to comply to your thinking please.

You give us Egypt's terms, we will give you order in one day.

 

[garg_bharat]

LCA Tejas has its own problems. However indications are that manufacturing issues are being tackled now.
I am always a pessimist when HAL is concerned, but hope is that units will start rolling out in later part of this year.

Tejas is no Rafale, and nobody should try to equate the two. However Tejas has a niche and it will be bought.

 

[Tactical Frog]

But russia has been a reliable partner than France which has a nice history of running back with tail between their legs.. READ ARGENTINA AND RUSSIA

Huh .. well if India has secret plans to annex Nepal or Mauritius, maybe you should let us know before we sell you any Rafale .