Know Your 'Rafale'

[gadeshi]

Bigger radar? no radar for the moment.
TRM? more than 1000 in the Rafale radar. And european made please !
longer range missile? K77M not available.

Dreamer and Liar you are.

Even then you are a Kid.

@BON PLAN you are fool. And a blind one.
I have written several times in this thread about R-77M. Cure your eyes and read.
There is no R-77M exists.
There is R-77-1 (Item 177) and its export version R-77E-1 (Item 177E or RVV SD).
Its range is 110km without any ramjet (which tells us about SRM quality and especially its specific pulse ratio).
It is operational and is used by Su-35S in Syria. It is shown on lots of photos and videos in Su-35S thread. Russian VKS have 3000 pieces of them purchased from 2012 to 2014 (according to KTRV CEO Boris Obnosov and proven by Russian government purchases website).
Moreover this, Syrian MiG-29 (9-12B) which were updated to MiG-29SE (9-17E) standard are using it as well (we can see AKU-170E catapult launchers on their photos).
So I don't see any obstacle for IAF to have it.

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[gadeshi]

Bigger radar? no radar for the moment.
TRM? more than 1000 in the Rafale radar. And european made please !
longer range missile? K77M not available.

Dreamer and Liar you are.

Even then you are a Kid.

About radar: detection range depends not on TRMs number but from amount of energy power they can convert to pure radiation and from antenna size (square space) which forms the aperture. The third and fours are TRM signal to noise ratio and signal processing algorythms quality. But the first 2 are the main ones.
So, if you make even 2000 TRM radar in the small antenna like Rafales nosecone diameter can hold, you will not have detection ranges even comparable to those which heavy fighters have regarding their cone sizes.
And of course, energy supply capabilities of pair of 12-15 tons class engines are much wider than for smaller ones.

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[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN you are fool. And a blind one.
I have written several times in this thread about R-77M. Cure your eyes and read.
There is no R-77M exists.
There is R-77-1 (Item 177) and its export version R-77E-1 (Item 177E or RVV SD).
Its range is 110km without any ramjet (which tells us about SRM quality and especially its specific pulse ratio).
It is operational and is used by Su-35S in Syria. It is shown on lots of photos and videos in Su-35S thread.
Moreover this, Syrian MiG-29 (9-12B) which were updated to MiG-29SE (9-17E) standard are using it as well (we can see AKU-170E catapult launchers on their photos).
So I don't see any obstacle for IAF to have it.

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You are part of the Indian Mafia on this forum?

The K77 stato powered (called it as you want, but it's your compatriot Smerstarz who speak about it) is not ready, and only on the drawing board. I called it a dream.

Nothing explaining how a futur missile in the 175 kg range could be more effective than another ram powered of 185kg ! This is to answer to Smestarz.

And for you, nothing explaining how a "classical" powder engine of 190kg can be more range and/or speed effective than a stato powered one of 185kg. Without the need to bring oxydizer, stato is more effective for a same mass class (and the same "generation" of powder).

 

[BON PLAN]

About radar: detection range depends not on TRMs number but from amount of energy power they can convert to pure radiation and from antenna size (square space) which forms the aperture. The third and fours are TRM signal to noise ratio and signal processing algorythms quality. But the first 2 are the main ones.
So, if you make even 2000 TRM radar in the small antenna like Rafales nosecone diameter can hold, you will not have detection ranges even comparable to those which heavy fighters have regarding their cone sizes.
And of course, energy supply capabilities of pair of 12-15 tons class engines are much wider than for smaller ones.

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It's why Thales is developping skin conformal radar. To have the maximum aperture.

 

[BON PLAN]

" Tactical Missile Corporation, also known as TRV, unveiled the RVV-SD and RVV-MD missiles for the first time at the Moscow Air Show (MAKS) in August 2009. The RVV-SD is an improved version of the R-77, while the RVV-MD is a variant of the R-73. The RVV-SD includes the upgrades associated with the izdeliye 170-1, or R-77-1. The RVV-SD, along with the RVV-MD, seem to be part of Russia's bid for India's MMRCA . Both designations were included by MiG on a presentation covering MiG-35 Fulcrum armament during Aero India Air Show in February. The initial RVV-SD offering is likely no more than a stopgap to try to maintain its position, and to provide a credible radar-guided weapon to offer as part of fighter export packages and upgrade programs.

According to specifications, the R-77-1 and its export variant RVV-SD is 15 kg (33 lb) heavier than the basic R-77 / RVV-AE, weighing 190 kg (420 lb) rather than 175 kg (386 lb). Maximum range is increased to 110 km (68 mi) from 80 km (50 mi). The missile is also slightly longer at 3.71 metres (12.2 ft), rather than the 3.6 metres (11.8 ft) of the basic variant. Additional improvements include upgrades to the missile's radar seeker and boat tail rear section to reduce drag. Russian missile manufacturer Agat previously confirmed it was working on seeker upgrades for the R-77, implying that at least two projects were underway, one for export and one for the Russian air force.

Vympel, a which had merged to be part of TRV, has been developing a more extensive upgrade of the missile than the R-77-1. Designated the izdeliye 180, or K-77M, this missile is a mid-life upgrade for the weapon and is intended to be the main medium-range missile for thePAKFA . This upgrade aims to provide a further improvement in range, with the design including a dual-pulse motor configuration. The izdeliye 180 will use an AESA seeker and conventional rear fins instead of the R-77's lattice fins. This missile is intended to match the performance of the latest AIM-120 variants. Though it uses a similar designation as the earlier R-77M improvement program, it is not known if these two missiles are the same or are related "

=> To match performance of the latest AMRAAM..... Meteor is far away.

 

[gadeshi]

You are part of the Indian Mafia on this forum?
The K77 stato powered (called it as you want, but it's your compatriot Smerstarz who speak about it) is not ready, and only on the drawing board. I called it a dream.

By what source? Ramjet powered Item 180PD is not planned to be a mainstream, but Item 180 with standard SRM is already undergoing live fire trials in Akhtubinsk and will be introduced in 2017.
As we have seen by earlier cases with R-77-1 and R-37M, all the things which mr. Obnosov says are true (in a big difference from EU dreamers).

Nothing explaining how a futur missile in the 175 kg range could be more effective than another ram powered of 185kg ! This is to answer to Smestarz.
And for you, nothing explaining how a "classical" powder engine of 190kg can be more range and/or speed effective than a stato powered one of 185kg. Without the need to bring oxydizer, stato is more effective for a same mass class (and the same "generation" of powder).

[/QUOTE]
It explains nothing to you because you have no sufficient knowledge to talk about the subject.
Range depends much on SRM energetics which main quality is specific pulse ratio. The greater this ration is, the more energy capable and long-ranged missile is.
The main goal for SRM developers is to invent as much energy containing melange fuel as possible. And multiply its efficiency by computing and designing the most efficient fuel charge configuration.
So, Russian 95kg fuel charge can be twice more effective than French fuel charge of the same weight

 

[gadeshi]

=> To match performance of the latest AMRAAM..... Meteor is far away.

Yes, Meteor is far away REAR BEYOUND AIM-120C-7 and AIM-120D - 100 km and 130km (unconfirmed both, as far as Meteor, cause EU too shy to show it).
Nevertheless, even R-77-1 (Item 177) has 110km without ramjet.
Item 180 (R-77M is not accepted as program index, real new one is not known) ALREADY IS (because it is under the trials now intended to be ready by 2017 for the T-50 LRIP start) 30% more capable of energetics (range and maneurability) which estimates by the Russian experts as 150km.
Item 180PD with ramjet intended to reach 180 or 200km, but we don't know much about it.

 

[gadeshi]

You can see Su-35S with R-77-1 (Item 177) on Kmeymym AB on the following videos:
http://www.1tv.ru/news/techno/301491
http://www.vesti.ru/videos/show/vid/670053/cid/58/
This is Syrian MiG-29 (9-12B) updated to MiG-29SE (9-17E) standard with AKU-170E catapult launchers:

 

[gadeshi]

It's why Thales is developping skin conformal radar. To have the maximum aperture.

Developing while Istok Corp. and NIIP already produce them in TLC ceramic cases

 

[sorcerer]

India Will Have To Bear Cost of Rafale Weapons In Addition To Aircraft Price

India apart from the designated price for the 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets from France will have to bear the cost of weapons that would be integrated to the fighter aircraft.
The cost of the ammunition suite of the Dassault Rafale will be an additional element to the final price of the aircraft being negotiated between India and France, sources in the Anglo-French weapons manufacturer, MBDA told defenseworld.net Friday.

MBDA has already sent its proposal to the Indian Air Force (IAF) that they can furnish the Rafale aircraft with a full weapon suite including Meteor, Mistral and Mica missiles besides laser guided bombs (LGBs).

The cost of these will have to be added to the estimated price of 36 Rafales believed to be between $ 7-9 billion. While the sources refused to divulge the price of the weapons package, they stated the government to government deal being negotiated now will take note of this.
The French weapons manufacturer has earlier sold MICA and Mistral missiles to the Indian armed forces. The latter is being used by the Dhruv ALH for its air to air capability, and as V-SHORAD (Very Short Range Air Defence) by India.

Milan ATGM is being manufactured by the defence public sector unit (DPSU), Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) in collaboration with MBDA.

They also say that the Scorpene submarines, being built in jointly with another French giant DCNS by the Mazagon Docks Ltd (one has already been built) will be equipped with variants of Exocet anti-ship missile. The missiles that the Scorpenes will have include SM39, AM39 and MM40.

Source>>

 

[BON PLAN]

By what source? Ramjet powered Item 180PD is not planned to be a mainstream, but Item 180 with standard SRM is already undergoing live fire trials in Akhtubinsk and will be introduced in 2017.
As we have seen by earlier cases with R-77-1 and R-37M, all the things which mr. Obnosov says are true (in a big difference from EU dreamers).

It explains nothing to you because you have no sufficient knowledge to talk about the subject.
Range depends much on SRM energetics which main quality is specific pulse ratio. The greater this ration is, the more energy capable and long-ranged missile is.
The main goal for SRM developers is to invent as much energy containing melange fuel as possible. And multiply its efficiency by computing and designing the most efficient fuel charge configuration.
So, Russian 95kg fuel charge can be twice more effective than French fuel charge of the same weight [/QUOTE]
And of course YOU have enough knowledge !

For your information, Meteor Ramjet is not french made, but a germany product. Sure european missile maker are not able to compute an efficient engine....
In your equation you forget Meteor engine, appart the initial booster, don't need oxydizer. I doubt SPR is better on non stato AA missile than on Meteor...

Your non stato missile is in the red bottom. Stato well above.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes, Meteor is far away REAR BEYOUND AIM-120C-7 and AIM-120D - 100 km and 130km (unconfirmed both, as far as Meteor, cause EU too shy to show it).
Nevertheless, even R-77-1 (Item 177) has 110km without ramjet.
Item 180 (R-77M is not accepted as program index, real new one is not known) ALREADY IS (because it is under the trials now intended to be ready by 2017 for the T-50 LRIP start) 30% more capable of energetics (range and maneurability) which estimates by the Russian experts as 150km.
Item 180PD with ramjet intended to reach 180 or 200km, but we don't know much about it.

Ah Ah Ah...... Russian Marketing?

Post after post, max range (in what conditions???) are greater.

 

[BON PLAN]

Developing while Istok Corp. and NIIP already produce them in TLC ceramic cases

On what plane can we seen it? .

 

[BON PLAN]

The missiles that the Scorpenes will have include SM39, AM39 and MM40.

I don't think so.
AM39 is the exocet variant only lauched from plane or helo. (AM = Air - Mer)
MM40 is the exocet variant only lauched from ship or littoral shelter or truck. (MM = Mer - Mer)

The only version lauchable from sub is SM39. (SM = ? Submarine - Mer ???)

 

[gadeshi]

Ah Ah Ah...... Russian Marketing?
Post after post, max range (in what conditions???) are greater.

Max range is obviousely reflect non-maneuvering target without ECM support for both manufacturers.
Name an exact value for Meteor, then we will speak about it.
KTRV names 110km freely, because they are responsible for any word they say.
Why don't MBDA name any numbers? What is "more than 100km"? How much more?
No range/altitude diagrams, just marketing, nothing more.

 

[gadeshi]

On what plane can we seen it? .

You can see serial built TRMs on NIIP radar prototypes and will see them on Okhotnik-B supersonic unmanned fighter-bomber in 2017.

 

[BON PLAN]

Max range is obviousely reflect non-maneuvering target without ECM support for both manufacturers.
Name an exact value for Meteor, then we will speak about it.
KTRV names 110km freely, because they are responsible for any word they say.
Why don't MBDA name any numbers? What is "more than 100km"? How much more?
No range/altitude diagrams, just marketing, nothing more.

Meteor is said to be "more than 100km".
MICA EM was said to be "more than 60km". In 1997 it hit a target drone at 67km fired by a Taiwanese Mirage 2000 in electronic countermesure ambiance. In 1997 ! since some improvements have been made, but MBDA, contrary to Raython, don't indicate a "block" as AMRAAM C-5 , C7 ....

MBDA keep the exact range secret. Only customers know the exact ranges (depending on respective altitude, presentation, speed of shooter, speed of target, manoeuvring target or not....)

Strangely UK which use a lot of US weapons, doesn't want to rely more on AMRAAM which is already integrated on Eurofighter and F35....
And I doubt they were not informed about AMRAAM developpments !
They are the main investor in Meteor. We could expect they paid more for this misssile to have a better service. Even against AMRAAM and sons in the foreseable futur.

 

[BON PLAN]

You can see serial built TRMs on NIIP radar prototypes and will see them on Okhotnik-B supersonic unmanned fighter-bomber in 2017.

Call me back when on flight. .

 

[gadeshi]

Meteor is said to be "more than 100km".
MICA EM was said to be "more than 60km". In 1997 it hit a target drone at 67km fired by a Taiwanese Mirage 2000 in electronic countermesure ambiance. In 1997 ! since some improvements have been made, but MBDA, contrary to Raython, don't indicate a "block" as AMRAAM C-5 , C7 ....

MBDA keep the exact range secret. Only customers know the exact ranges (depending on respective altitude, presentation, speed of shooter, speed of target, manoeuvring target or not....)

Strangely UK which use a lot of US weapons, doesn't want to rely more on AMRAAM which is already integrated on Eurofighter and F35....
And I doubt they were not informed about AMRAAM developpments !
They are the main investor in Meteor. We could expect they paid more for this misssile to have a better service. Even against AMRAAM and sons in the foreseable futur.

They want to get independence, even having some lower package, yes.
We have seen this earlier when UK has developed Skyflash to be independent from AIM-7. We all know the results The same Italy have developed Aspide for the same reason, but the result was poor.
Both results were poor, especially when you'll compare it to AIM-7M.
But they have got some (not complete) independence from US for the price of lower caps package and bigger price (EU has much lower production rates and very expensive energetics and workforce)

 

[gadeshi]

Call me back when on flight. .

Sure!
I will make a separate thread on this forum!