Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

They want to get independence, even having some lower package, yes.
We have seen this earlier when UK has developed Skyflash to be independent from AIM-7. We all know the results The same Italy have developed Aspide for the same reason, but the result was poor.
Both results were poor, especially when you'll compare it to AIM-7M.
But they have got some (not complete) independence from US for the price of lower caps package and bigger price (EU has much lower production rates and very expensive energetics and workforce)

You're right for Skyflash and Aspide. But it was 30 years ago...

Meteor use a seeker directly issued of that in MICA EM (and also used in ASTER missile), a ramjet made by Bayern Chemie (and every body knows german are weak in chemie.....). In fact the best Europe can made. And a 350 millions+ Europe can do at least same job a 150 millions- russia can do.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sure!
I will make a separate thread on this forum!

Send me the link as soon as it is ready. I'm waiting.....

 

[gadeshi]

Send me the link as soon as it is ready. I'm waiting.....

Yeah, but one NY greeting furst

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[gadeshi]

You're right for Skyflash and Aspide. But it was 30 years ago...

Meteor use a seeker directly issued of that in MICA EM (and also used in ASTER missile), a ramjet made by Bayern Chemie (and every body knows german are weak in chemie.....). In fact the best Europe can made. And a 350 millions+ Europe can do at least same job a 150 millions- russia can do.

Yeah, but EU will always loose because of lower production rates, higher initial costs and wide lack of engineering force last 15 years at last.
Just compare engineers and scientists per every 1000 people of population.

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[PaliwalWarrior]

Egypt need only one base to be equiped.
Egypt don't need extra weapons or equipment to be integrated.
Egypt take the actual french definition fighter on assembly line.
Egypt don't want offset.
We don't know exactly the support package of Egyptian planes. Probably less consistant than indian need.
etc...

Honnestly, Dassault earn some money on Egyptian deal. They would be very happy in selling Rafale under the same terms. But these famous terms are indian's one.... And indian's terms involved lo loose money, because too harsh. And Dassault will never conclude a deal loosing money.

You should remember that the Indian terms are simple
1 they have to better than those under mmrca - even 3-5% better will be OK

2 it was dasault itself that bid under mmrca and gave India those figures

Now you can't come back saying that Indian conditions are harsh and dasault.will loose money + if that was the.case dasault shouldn't have.bid or put those loss making amount in the bids

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

FIND ON ANOTHER FORUM
from http://**********/members/taygibay.33538/


A lot of folks quote jet prices out of their ...

Most posters find one mention of an extreme that fits their views, i.e. very low if they like the aircraft
and very high if they don't and go with that as proof hence. At best the mention is from an uninformed
journalist and at worst from a fellow poster on any given forum.

Sometimes, you'll also find the case of a poor sap dividing a quote for a deal by the number of planes
which is correct but forgetting what else that contract covered. Recently, Qatar bought 24 Rafales
for example for 6.3 B €. So some went 6B divided by 24 and thus obtained a unit price of 250M € each.
They were of course forgetting training for the pilots & mechanics or these weapons : 300 MICA, 300
AASM 140 SCALP, 60 Exocets latest blocks and possibly Meteors in undisclosed amounts.
Avec le Rafale, le Qatar rentre dans la cour des grands | Le portail des passionnés d'aviation
The numbers above are not exact as explained in the source but still valid rough estimates. And for
any mil avia worth their salt, that's a lot of cash as such missiles are pricey. An export AASM costs
around 250 000 € by itself so that in this case, the weapons constitute about half the deal's worth.

There is a much simpler way to source the real price of a fighter. Simply go to the government that
had them made and check their documentation. For the Rafale that would be the French Sénat :
"aux conditions économiques de 2014, soit un coût unitaire
(hors coût de développement) de 73 millions d'euros pour le Rafale B
(pour 110 avions), 68 millions pour le Rafale C (pour 118 avions)
et 78 millions pour le Rafale M (pour 58 avions)."
Projet de loi de finances pour 2015 : Défense : équipement des forces

So a single Rafale costs an average of 73M €, far from the dreams of our above semi-trolls & fanboys.
I chose the 2014 price voluntarily as that fell within the last Defence Program Law that is now closed.
This price won't change much in the coming years but it can fluctuate. Inflation and exchange rates
will impact it and if the price could go up with new equipment, it should go down with added buys, be
those foreign or national, due to series effect.

This is very much the case with another fighter : the F-35. If you took the program cost and unit value
of the very first Lighting II together ( program costs are never supposed to be computed as they only
count for the government that started it ), stopped production and again applied it to that single jet by
way of a division, it should have come to between half and three-fourths of a Trillion $.
What? A 500B$ fighter? Yes!

The program continues to this day however so that with each new lot signed for, the unit price of the
F-35 goes down. In this case, concurrency or the fact of developing the planes after production has
started muddles things up a lot. Some fanboys including at the Pentagon dream of it costing the price
of a 1985 F-16 which alas won't happen but it will go down. Check here :

http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-160208-044.pdf
In the FY 2016 columns, you find 64,467 M ( AC ) + 16,743 M ( Electronics ) + 13,060M for engines that
add up to 94,270M to which one adds the ECO (1,885M )but also non-recurring cost. Alas, the last is bundled
so that here, you do need to check quantities ( 47 to be bought this year ) and divide 438,085 by 47 to get
9,320M and a grand total of 105,475M $ per plane ( approx. 96.5 M € ).

Why then are some claiming that the F-35 could go down to say 85M $ a piece?
Simply put, contrary to our Rafale example, this plane has not yet achieved full production and the ac-
quisition costs above are based on the 2017FY. Next year, the price should come down by 2.5M$ each.
If the program goes well ( better might be in order here but still ), the F-35 will indeed cost less every year.
It was almost 10M $ more last year even if it won't go down by as much every 12 months.
Of course, that is not a guarantee as full post-development production is yet to come and it is the price
for those partner nations, others should expect to pay a bit more.
Still, 105.5M$ is not the final price of the JSF/Lightning II. It will dip below 100M, possibly below 90M.

There are many many variables that I have not mentioned but those 2 examples are sufficient for now.
For a finished product like Rafale F3+, pick last closed acquisition law. For an unfinished program, use
many years and check the evolution of its costs. BUT PLEASE ... in both instances, get your numbers
from the people who designed and buy them, not from your neighbour's third cousin's landlord ...
even if he's a compatriot and posts news snippets on PDF or elsewhere!
And have a great evening all, Tay.

Source: http://**********/threads/real-jet-fighter-prices-rafale-f-35-2015-16.423797/#ixzz41qs52ZYE

Well so program costs for f35 will go down every year with more orders

Also what about production lines
Wouldn't it require a new production line for a certain set of new orders ?
Wouldn't that increase the unit costs ?


Are you trying to tell us that -

So if rafale production is to be increased it will costs more - even to ramp up production forget about setting up another production line

But f35/costs will decrease with more orders ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Rafale on Installments is the Answer to Defence Ministry's Tight Budget
New Delhi: When the Rafale fighter deal with France is inked later this year, the Ministry of Defence or MoD will have to pay nearly Rs. 6,000 crore for it, which is roughly one-tenth of the total cost of the deal, top Ministry officials told NDTV.


"I am not unduly worried," a top a Ministry official told NDTV, adding, "out of box thinking and imaginative accounting will see us through."


Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs. 60,000 crore. The Ministry of Defence has a little above Rs. 80,000 crore to pay for new acquisition this financial year out of its total budget of about Rs. 2,50,000 crore.

Of the Rs. 80,000 crore, three-fourth will have to be set aside for "committed liabilities" - the MoD's phrase for payments to be made for previous purchases.


Sources told NDTV that for the financial year 2014-15's purchases, Rs. 66,000 crore is still being paid for.

In the current financial year, India signed up to purchase defence hardware worth Rs. 44,000 crore. This includes two additional Airborne Warning And Control Systems ( AWAC) for the Indian Air Force. Also, And, it expects to ink deals for purchases of about another Rs. 15,000 crore by month-end.


The UPA Government in 2013-14 signed for purchases worth Rs. 37,000 crore which the Modi Government paid for in the last two years. In an effort to better manage funds, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has asked the three forces to re-evaluate 342 cases of pending purchases - some even a decade old - worth Rs. 509 lakh crore.


"Much of these proposed purchases are of technology which is obsolete now and can be cancelled, reducing demand on the available resources," the officer added.

For the Rafale acquisition, to be able to pay in installments is the big relief for the MoD. "We will have just enough to pay the first installment given the current allocation," the officer said.

Source>>

All defence buys are in installments only

We never pay all up front

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

It's why Thales is developping skin conformal radar. To have the maximum aperture.

But then it is again a future thing

Is developing

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

India Will Have To Bear Cost of Rafale Weapons In Addition To Aircraft Price

India apart from the designated price for the 36 Dassault Rafale fighter jets from France will have to bear the cost of weapons that would be integrated to the fighter aircraft.
The cost of the ammunition suite of the Dassault Rafale will be an additional element to the final price of the aircraft being negotiated between India and France, sources in the Anglo-French weapons manufacturer, MBDA told defenseworld.net Friday.

MBDA has already sent its proposal to the Indian Air Force (IAF) that they can furnish the Rafale aircraft with a full weapon suite including Meteor, Mistral and Mica missiles besides laser guided bombs (LGBs).

The cost of these will have to be added to the estimated price of 36 Rafales believed to be between $ 7-9 billion. While the sources refused to divulge the price of the weapons package, they stated the government to government deal being negotiated now will take note of this.
The French weapons manufacturer has earlier sold MICA and Mistral missiles to the Indian armed forces. The latter is being used by the Dhruv ALH for its air to air capability, and as V-SHORAD (Very Short Range Air Defence) by India.

Milan ATGM is being manufactured by the defence public sector unit (DPSU), Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) in collaboration with MBDA.

They also say that the Scorpene submarines, being built in jointly with another French giant DCNS by the Mazagon Docks Ltd (one has already been built) will be equipped with variants of Exocet anti-ship missile. The missiles that the Scorpenes will have include SM39, AM39 and MM40.

Source>>

There goes into the dustbin the argument that 9 billion includes the weapons package

 

[BON PLAN]

Well so program costs for f35 will go down every year with more orders

Also what about production lines
Wouldn't it require a new production line for a certain set of new orders ?
Wouldn't that increase the unit costs ?


Are you trying to tell us that -

So if rafale production is to be increased it will costs more - even to ramp up production forget about setting up another production line

But f35/costs will decrease with more orders ?

No direct link with Rafale. Just information about F35

 

[Sam Biswas]

You're a dreamer !
Tejas is always on study. Actual version is over weighted. It will remain a light, single engine fighter.
It will never be a tejaF 22 !!!

STOP DREAMING.

Fighter jets are made of Dreams and Technology unless you are China then it is 100% copy. You can sell Rafale all you want, it will be a "White Elephant" for India. It will be a Showpiece not a war machine. Tejas will become a war machine like F-16 or F/A-18.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yeah, but EU will always loose because of lower production rates, higher initial costs and wide lack of engineering force last 15 years at last.
Just compare engineers and scientists per every 1000 people of population.

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Quality of your engineers are not seen in your car industry... or submarine one (Koursk) !

Quality and quantity are two différents things.

 

[gadeshi]

Quality of your engineers are not seen in your car industry... or submarine one (Koursk) !

Quality and quantity are two différents things.

Сar industry is not comparable to airspace one because of its dufferent importance.
However, if you'll compare your military automotive industry to Russian one, you will suck again

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[gadeshi]

Quality of your engineers are not seen in your car industry... or submarine one (Koursk) !

Quality and quantity are two différents things.

Russian engineers have developed the biggest (941 Ajula), the fastest (956 Gepard), the most quiet and the most deep capable submarines ever.
EU cannot create nothing even close compatible to them.
Kursk tragedy was excsess of harsh 90-th which was never hapoened after.

And about EU: your society is weak, wicked with postmodernism, nigilism and phagosy.
Your young men want to be lawyers, plastic surgeons, do-nothing managers and pussy shavers or even gay activists. There are too few of them are willing to be a scuentist or an engineer. And at the top of this you have simplified, stupidized educational system which makes your industry more and more lacking engineering force each year.

And of course, islamic migrants come to party...
Them and they children and even grand children will never be a qualufied technical force or science adepts. They will bring their savage 15-th century like lifestyle to your countries throwing you back in development.
You will not build planes and even cars in the next 2 decades but you will build a Mosque of Notre Damme

So, EU will just sit and swallow dust after US, Russia and China.

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[sorcerer]

RAFALE DEAL: Let me Save Money for the Nation: Manohar Parrikar

New Delhi, March 4: The government has kept "adequate money" for the purchase of Rafale fighter jets from France while provisions have been made to continue the process of raising a mountain strike corps, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said here on Friday.

Addressing a press conference here, he said the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs.3,41,000 crore including defence pensions and this came to 17.23 percent of overall expenditure of Rs.19,78,060 crore.

As Rs.70,000 crore had been allocated in this year's budget for defence acquisition, he said that excluding defence pensions, the budget figure was Rs.2,59,000 crore which was 13.09 percent of overall expenditure.

To a query on the purchase of Rafale fighter jets, which has been stuck over price negotiations with France, Parrikar said that the government had "kept adequate money for Rafale deal".
"I am a tough negotiator. Let me save money for the nation," he said in answer to another query.

"It is better to cross the bridge when the time comes... A good buyer does not put his weakness in front. He keeps his cards close to his chest. Please do not ask me to reveal the card in national interest," he said.

Answering a query on a China-centric mountain strike corps, which was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) in September 2013, Parrikar said: "Whatever arrangements need to be made, have been done."

Asked about large sums to be spent on salaries and pensions in the wake of expected decision on the Seventh Pay Commission, Parrikar said the "expenditure is inevitable."
However, he said the government was keen on rationalising the strength of the army through a process undertaken by the army itself.

"We have asked army to do the exercise," he said.
Parrikar said that another way of cutting down expenditure was use of simulators in training of pilots and also drivers.

On the specific question of recommendations of the Seventh Pay Commission which are under consideration of the government, Parrikar said necessary steps will be taken by the ministry after discussions over the next two-three weeks.

The minister said that Rs.77,000 crore had been allocated for capital acquisition in 2015-16 and the anticipated spending was Rs.66,000 crore.

He said it was for the first time that the defence ministry took stock of military sales through an account held by the US government and found that due to "ill-management of this account, slightly less than $ 3 billion piled up".
"In May-June last year, we reviewed it. We have recalibrated it has come down from about $3 billion to $1.8 billlon," he said.

He said Rs.6,000 crore had been paid last year to the US for direct military sales and the ministry had saved money from its budget allocations.

"We have saved $700 to $800 million of foreign exchange," he said, adding that the ministry had been able to save about Rs.3,000 crore more through other measures.

The minister said that modernisation of forces was very important for the government and contracts of Rs.1,20,000 crore had been signed during the 21 months of the Modi government and contracts for about Rs.32,000 crore were in the process of final approval.
Source>>

 

[garg_bharat]

Сar industry is not comparable to airspace one because of its dufferent importance.
However, if you'll compare your military automotive industry to Russian one, you will suck again

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My friend, it is concentration of finance. The West benefits from it. The growth of industry and "quality" produced are very much products of money thrown in it.

Russians goods will remain inferior to Western ones in the near future. However Russian goods are cheaper too so less quality for less price.

For us in India, we have to balance between money and quality. We may want a Mercedes but end up buying a Suzuki, because we realized it does the job and costs 1/6th of Mercedes.

India is officially a "lower middle class country". So our purchases will reflect our pocket.

 

[garg_bharat]

Quality of your engineers are not seen in your car industry... or submarine one (Koursk) !

Quality and quantity are two différents things.

I think Russians are improving their manufacturing at a good clip. Their ability to sustain their economy has surprised me despite quite restrictive Western sanctions.

I would advise the French to maintain respect for Russians. I doubt Europe benefits from anti-Russia tirade.

 

[gadeshi]

My friend, it is concentration of finance. The West benefits from it. The growth of industry and "quality" produced are very much products of money thrown in it.

Russians goods will remain inferior to Western ones in the near future. However Russian goods are cheaper too so less quality for less price.

For us in India, we have to balance between money and quality. We may want a Mercedes but end up buying a Suzuki, because we realized it does the job and costs 1/6th of Mercedes.

India is officially a "lower middle class country". So our purchases will reflect our pocket.

Mostly true.
So I'm talking about social and vital importance. Russians put their financial resources into those economy branches which are crucially important and their products are best in the world.
But consumer goods and consumer automotive are not the first impirtance for now.

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[garg_bharat]

China has edged out India in consumer products. When India cannot compete with its cheap labour, how can Russia compete?

I am hearing that quality of Russian made vehicles has improved a lot.

 

[BON PLAN]

Сar industry is not comparable to airspace one because of its dufferent importance.
However, if you'll compare your military automotive industry to Russian one, you will suck again

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Hummm.... Russian tanks perform badly during all wars. T72 were smashed by AMX30, Abrams and Challenger in Irak.