Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Rafail is easy thumped by Su-30 MKK and Su-35S.

bla bla bla.
Always the same, without any proof.
Are you trying to persuade yourself? in this case it's hard. You have an iron head.... difficult to put some fresh idea inside.

 

[Immanuel]

A russian one? You're full of, so a pb of autonomy.
A US one? When you'll need to use it, be affraid of a stop in delivering of spares and support (UAE experience)
Gripen? a good light plane, but you need a medium one. (MMRCA : M like.... Medium)
Tejas? study not terminated (complete combat system absolutely not mature), too light (see Gripen), and you can doubt HAL is able to deliver 15/20 pcs/year....
EF? Anticipate 10 years of dealing (4 nations....)

What else? euhhhhhh..... RAFALE !

Well Why not a Russian one, we are adding more Indian aircraft for once so the force is diversified enough. We have French Mirages, Anglo-French Jaguars, Russian Mig-29s/MKIs. Mig-21s and Mig-27s will be phased out in the next 5 years.

A US one, why not, no issues for us so far in using the aircraft as we please, again quite your whining, India is not a pushover like France.

Gripen is on offer but won't happen because the Tejas is quite similar even if it does, its good enough, a low cost aircraft.

Tejas, mature enough to have continued investment, still remains the most cost effective fighter program ever. With a more powerful AESA than the Rafale's coming in 2017, lower weight, better TW ratio, etc etc.

After wasting our time with the Frecnh for 4 years on the singular Rafale deal, why not disscuss with 4 nations for another 4 years what have we to loose but our own time, how does it matter to you?

What else??? Ehhh anything but Rafale.

 

[Immanuel]

I understand very well, thank you.
Just imagine : Russia, for a reason or another, stopped to send some key component for SU engine. In some weeks (or months...) you'll be in big trouble.
You are already very dependant on russia. For SU, for tanks.

It's why india will try to find another main battle fighter, not russian (may be not french also).

And please, stop to write "Rafail". don't be so litlle....

What does depending on Russia have to do with anything? The problems with MKI's maintence and spares were because of the IAF and partly the MOD, these are the folks who delayed setting up the MROs, holding enough spares at BRDs etc. Again, things of the past, MKI availability by end 2015 was already at over 65%, Q1 2016, they will achieve 70% by Q3 that figure will reach 80% and will remain constant during peacetime and by end of year, they will have the ability to have short bursts of 95% for just over 1 month and 90% for sustained bursts of around 2 months after more than enough.

For the rest these days, we have slowly moved away from just Russia, a lot of stuff our now comes from US/ Israel as well.

 

[Tactical Frog]

A fighter has to be seen from the perspective of how it performs in war.
By all accounts the Su-30 and Su-35 are doing well in Syria.

We have no idea what France is doing in Syria, whatever it is, has no significant impact.

The problem with France is that it has not carried out an independent campaign in ages, only as part of NATO. To think that French equipment is the best is hard to verify.

Russian equipment has done well in South Asian wars.

Rafale were the first to enter Lybian airspace in 2011. Without any prior strike against radars or missile defences. Speaks volumes about the confidence of French armee de l' air in Spectra.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Some users there seem to like to repeat here and again that Rafale is not combat proven because it has not been involved in any peer-to-peer war. Can they give examples of peer-to-peer wars fought during the operational lifetime of Rafale ( 2001-2016) ?

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale were the first to enter Lybian airspace in 2011. Without any prior strike against radars or missile defences. Speaks volumes about the confidence of French armee de l' air in Spectra.

Air defence radars were softened up by US cruise missile strikes before Raffy went in to clear out some old SA-2 remnants.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Air defence radars were softened up by US cruise missile strikes before Raffy went in to clear out some old SA-2 remnants.

That is totally false. Try to document yourself for once. No US strikes in the first 24 hours.

 

[Immanuel]

That is totally false. Try to document yourself for once. No US strikes in the first 24 hours.

The operation began the same day as the summit andUS cruise missiles were on the way towards their targets, around a 112 T-Hawk cruise missiles were used on day-1 i.e the 19th of March

I don't need to document anything, please read through, your own people admit the first bombs from Rafale were dropped on the 21st of March 2011 while the US had already begun cruise missile strikes on the 19th


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/world/africa/20libya.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The main barrage of missile strikes began around 2 p.m. Eastern time, when the United States Navy fired cruise missiles that struck Libya roughly an hour later, Vice Adm. William Gortney told reporters in Washington. He said the Pentagon had not yet assessed the damage that the missiles had caused and would not be able to do so until dawn broke in Libya.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/frances-rafale-fighter-proves-its-omnirole-skills-357687/

Rafales dropped their first weapons against Libyan targets on 21 March, with these early strikes having been launched from Saint-Dizier air base on the French mainland. Two days later, a major raid also involving navy Rafale Ms flying from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle attacked a Libyan air force base 250km (135nm) inland, and saw France's debut combat use of MBDA's Scalp-EG cruise missile. Identical to the Storm Shadow weapons employed by UK's Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado GR4 strike aircraft earlier in the conflict, they were used to take out infrastructure targets during the French mission.

Next time before labelling me false, better research yourself.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas, mature enough to have continued investment, still remains the most cost effective fighter program ever. With a more powerful AESA than the Rafale's coming in 2017, lower weight, better TW ratio, etc etc.

1) When Mirage 2000 and super Mirage 4000 were developped, Thomson studied a radar for Super Mirage 4000 (it was the AdlA choice : a twin engine). When france (president giscard d'Estaing) choose the Mirage 2000 on a cost basis, Dassault tried to put radar of the larger SM4000 in the nose of Mirage 2000 : it doesn"t fly well. Aerodynamically it was not good. So Thomson had to modify its radar (end that explain why first Mirage 2000 had an intermediate radar called RDM instead of RDI).
Have a look to the Tejas : short, big nose, air intake not very integrated. body not fluent. I'm curious to know it's max speed... My evaluation : Mach 1.6.

2) TW ratio? what TW ratio? with the actual Tejas? with the actual Tejas after weight and wetcher cure? with Tejas 1A ? We speak about that with the final Tejas, as seen in squadron.

3) Last quality you don't mention : range. Tejas is a point defense fighter.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well Why not a Russian one, we are adding more Indian aircraft for once so the force is diversified enough. We have French Mirages, Anglo-French Jaguars, Russian Mig-29s/MKIs. Mig-21s and Mig-27s will be phased out in the next 5 years.

A US one, why not, no issues for us so far in using the aircraft as we please, again quite your whining, India is not a pushover like France.

Gripen is on offer but won't happen because the Tejas is quite similar even if it does, its good enough, a low cost aircraft.

Tejas, mature enough to have continued investment, still remains the most cost effective fighter program ever. With a more powerful AESA than the Rafale's coming in 2017, lower weight, better TW ratio, etc etc.

After wasting our time with the Frecnh for 4 years on the singular Rafale deal, why not disscuss with 4 nations for another 4 years what have we to loose but our own time, how does it matter to you?

What else??? Ehhh anything but Rafale.

Mirage 2000 : 50 units. few.
Jag : how many? but in the end of life.
Mig 29 : how many? and russian.
Mig 21/27 : phasing out.

SU is the backbone of your air defense. You need anotheer supplier plane.

 

[BON PLAN]

What does depending on Russia have to do with anything? The problems with MKI's maintence and spares were because of the IAF and partly the MOD, these are the folks who delayed setting up the MROs, holding enough spares at BRDs etc. Again, things of the past, MKI availability by end 2015 was already at over 65%, Q1 2016, they will achieve 70% by Q3 that figure will reach 80% and will remain constant during peacetime and by end of year, they will have the ability to have short bursts of 95% for just over 1 month and 90% for sustained bursts of around 2 months after more than enough.

For the rest these days, we have slowly moved away from just Russia, a lot of stuff our now comes from US/ Israel as well.

You don't have 5 years of spares ! Imagine russia stopped sending spares, you are in big trouble.
It's all what I say.
You have US stuff, like Apache and P8I, but no fighters.

 

[BON PLAN]

Air defence radars were softened up by US cruise missile strikes before Raffy went in to clear out some old SA-2 remnants.

NO. no US cruise missile fired before first french flights.
If not, why speaking about SA2. They will be destroyed no?

 

[Tactical Frog]

The operation began the same day as the summit andUS cruise missiles were on the way towards their targets, around a 112 T-Hawk cruise missiles were used on day-1 i.e the 19th of March

I don't need to document anything, please read through, your own people admit the first bombs from Rafale were dropped on the 21st of March 2011 while the US had already begun cruise missile strikes on the 19th


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/world/africa/20libya.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The main barrage of missile strikes began around 2 p.m. Eastern time, when the United States Navy fired cruise missiles that struck Libya roughly an hour later, Vice Adm. William Gortney told reporters in Washington. He said the Pentagon had not yet assessed the damage that the missiles had caused and would not be able to do so until dawn broke in Libya.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/frances-rafale-fighter-proves-its-omnirole-skills-357687/

Rafales dropped their first weapons against Libyan targets on 21 March, with these early strikes having been launched from Saint-Dizier air base on the French mainland. Two days later, a major raid also involving navy Rafale Ms flying from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle attacked a Libyan air force base 250km (135nm) inland, and saw France's debut combat use of MBDA's Scalp-EG cruise missile. Identical to the Storm Shadow weapons employed by UK's Royal Air Force Panavia Tornado GR4 strike aircraft earlier in the conflict, they were used to take out infrastructure targets during the French mission.

Next time before labelling me false, better research yourself.

Are you slighlity dysfunctional or what ? Even your NY link states that " The campaign began with French warplanes, which started their attacks even before the end of an emergency meeting among allied leaders in Paris" . This is documented everywhere on serious sources like the Aviationist . http://theaviationist.com/2011/03/20/operation-odyssey-dawn-explained/

 

[Immanuel]

1) When Mirage 2000 and super Mirage 4000 were developped, Thomson studied a radar for Super Mirage 4000 (it was the AdlA choice : a twin engine). When france (president giscard d'Estaing) choose the Mirage 2000 on a cost basis, Dassault tried to put radar of the larger SM4000 in the nose of Mirage 2000 : it doesn"t fly well. Aerodynamically it was not good. So Thomson had to modify its radar (end that explain why first Mirage 2000 had an intermediate radar called RDM instead of RDI).
Have a look to the Tejas : short, big nose, air intake not very integrated. body not fluent. I'm curious to know it's max speed... My evaluation : Mach 1.6.

2) TW ratio? what TW ratio? with the actual Tejas? with the actual Tejas after weight and wetcher cure? with Tejas 1A ? We speak about that with the final Tejas, as seen in squadron.

3) Last quality you don't mention : range. Tejas is a point defense fighter.

The Tejas's main issue was weight, for the design, it was around 800 kg over weight and this will be resolved by 2017 as they are busy with weight reduction. As for body, its far more fluent than the base F-16 and Mirage which is good enough. Top speed for the Tejas during IOC was around mach 1.6 at 7000m. FOC will have its entire envelop opened up, max speed should be mach 1.8 which is more than enough. So what is Tejas is a point defence fighter, having a good number of them allows to protect a good number of points.

 

[Immanuel]

You don't have 5 years of spares ! Imagine russia stopped sending spares, you are in big trouble.
It's all what I say.
You have US stuff, like Apache and P8I, but no fighters.

What the fuck are you on about, why will Russia stop supply of spares, you're truly a retard. Most of MKI is made in India you little dim wit.

 

[Immanuel]

Are you slighlity dysfunctional or what ? Even your NY link states that " The campaign began with French warplanes, which started their attacks even before the end of an emergency meeting among allied leaders in Paris" . This is documented everywhere on serious sources like the Aviationist . http://theaviationist.com/2011/03/20/operation-odyssey-dawn-explained/

So what if Rafale bombed a few tanks, Libya's air defences should hardly be an issue for the Rafale. Big fucking deal, fact is you French become more and more irrelevant in these times.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Can' t help noting some level of hypocrisy when all non french sources explain that the lybian air defences around Benghazi were inactive. Probably most of them were but you never know ... The Americans still felt the need to launch a massive Tomahawk strike against Libyan defences. Maybe just for the show ?

 

[BON PLAN]

The Tejas's main issue was weight, for the design, it was around 800 kg over weight and this will be resolved by 2017 as they are busy with weight reduction. As for body, its far more fluent than the base F-16 and Mirage which is good enough. Top speed for the Tejas during IOC was around mach 1.6 at 7000m. FOC will have its entire envelop opened up, max speed should be mach 1.8 which is more than enough. So what is Tejas is a point defence fighter, having a good number of them allows to protect a good number of points.

I agree, except for the aerodynamically aspect of Tejas vs M2000, which is very pure and clean (max speed : Mach 2.2+)

 

[Immanuel]

Mirage 2000 : 50 units. few.
Jag : how many? but in the end of life.
Mig 29 : how many? and russian.
Mig 21/27 : phasing out.

SU is the backbone of your air defense. You need anotheer supplier plane.

Mirages: 50 units
Mig-29 UPG: Around 60
Mig-29K:45
LCA MK-1A: Around 100 by 2022
MKI: 220 in fleet with another 50 to be delivered and perhaps another 40 to be ordered total fleet around 300+
Jag: 120, to be upgarded to DARIN 3 standards including with Israeli AESA and hopefully uprated engines

 

[Immanuel]

Can' t help noting some level of hypocrisy when all non french sources explain that the lybian air defences around Benghazi were inactive. Probably most of them were but you never know ... The Americans still felt the need to launch a massive Tomahawk strike against Libyan defences. Maybe just for the show ?

Everything the Aemricans do is just for show, the more they use their stockpile of weapons, the more they can order more and that keep the war industry running.