Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Switzerland has two official languages as I know, German and French, Why would they publish that report in English?

Indan evaluation: Both EF and Rafale were declared fulfilling the requirement of IAF, but Rafale was declared L1 but some members of the CNC did point out that Dassault bid was incomplete and lot of assumtopns were made and the data tfor assumption was given by NAK Browne (who else but the Crook IAF chief)

If you compare most planes, F-35, F/A-18, F-16, each of them has bigger order book than Rafale, even Eurofighter and Gripen. So everyone is giving the hint to the French. The best plane of france is only needed in France, for the rest of the world there are options that do not suck them dry.

English is the official langage of aerospace industry.
And no one never said this was a false report. The defence swiss ministry was angry about this leak.... because from the beginning he was a firm partisan of Gripen, and swiss air force don't want it... so.... a leak was organized.

Book order? Rafale were produced in serial 2 years before EF, and the line of EF will close well before Rafale, because european country are now involved in F35, which drain a lot of money, Germany has already reduce it's order, and there are only export contrats. Koweit help to postponed a little.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Switzerland has two official languages as I know, German and French, Why would they publish that report in English?

Indan evaluation: Both EF and Rafale were declared fulfilling the requirement of IAF, but Rafale was declared L1 but some members of the CNC did point out that Dassault bid was incomplete and lot of assumtopns were made and the data tfor assumption was given by NAK Browne (who else but the Crook IAF chief)

If you compare most planes, F-35, F/A-18, F-16, each of them has bigger order book than Rafale, even Eurofighter and Gripen. So everyone is giving the hint to the French. The best plane of france is only needed in France, for the rest of the world there are options that do not suck them dry.

Never tired of posting all this nonsense, huh ?

Arms market is not like cars market. There are are very few " open " markets for fighter jets. India is one of them. The Americans tolerate the Eurofighter because it is an UK leaded project. Yet the Typhoon was only exported to Austria ( Germany' s neighbour) , Saudi Arabia, Oman and now Koweit. Thei American jets come with plenty of strings attached. There are no strings attached with Rafale. My advice to India : if you dont want to become like North Korea or Japan , never ever buy combat systems from US. Even buying Apache was a huge mistake.

 

[Immanuel]

Never tired of posting all this nonsense, huh ?

Arms market is not like cars market. There are are very few " open " markets for fighter jets. India is one of them. The Americans tolerate the Eurofighter because it is an UK leaded project. Yet the Typhoon was only exported to Austria ( Germany' s neighbour) , Saudi Arabia, Oman and now Koweit. Thei American jets come with plenty of strings attached. There are no strings attached with Rafale. My advice to India : if you dont want to become like North Korea or Japan , never ever buy combat systems from US. Even buying Apache was a huge mistake.

You can quit your whining, you keep talking like France is immune to US pressure, looking at the Russian Mistral deal clearly points to how France sings like a canary everytime Unkil lays down the cow boy charm. As far as India is concerned the experience with buying american is good so far, all aircraft are being delivered in time. EUMA related inspections have never been implemented and CISMOA was not signed when we didn't like the initial text. No loss here. As for the French, the Mirage upgrade deal with an arm twister in terms of cost, the same upgrade could have been done better by the Israelis at a lower cost and with better avionics. The Scorpene deal was again a nightmare when it comes to final execution, everything from price to TOT agreements were shitted upon by the French. Finally it comes down to what happens in reality and not what may or may not happen.

May be the Apache, P-8, C-130J, C-17, Chinook deals were a mistake but atleast they are always delivered on time, the deals were as transparent as they can get in the context and we know where every dollar went. The FMS system allows to have a clear view on where the costs are going. Also from experience of the last few years P-8, C-130J, C-17 have the best availability times, consistency in maintanence and recurring costs.

Don't go lecturing us on what to buy, while your own forces operate things like the Javelin, E-3 sentries, E-2Cs, Reaper UAVs, Tankers, C-130 etc.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Don't go lecturing us on what to buy, while your own forces operate things like the Javelin, E-3 sentries, E-2Cs, Reaper UAVs, Tankers, C-130 etc.

You are probably right . I should not lecture India about buying American stuff. There are strings attached for France too. We are working very hard on trying to replace every bit of American hardware in the future ... takes time. Our UAV wont come out before 2025. The E-3 sentries will be eventually replaced by an Airbus platform, just like the tankers will be replaced by A330 MRTT. Takes times and money !

 

[smestarz]

It seems (on another forum) that price for these 36 was agreed, but that now indians want a uprated/updated engine, avionic modifications, add of some weapons, and ask for some support price. The Pb is that package has a cost, and it's not the same to divide this cost by 36 or by.... 126 !

The information on forum cannot be really taken as genuine unless reported officially by the parties involved (Dassault France or Indian govt)

I agree that the package has the costs but ultimately the total package cost reflects in the cost of the plane. One cannot buy the package without the planes, I mean do you buy Truck tyres if you do not own a truck? At least in India we dont.

Ultimately the calculation is that, Price of planes say A,
price of the maintenance package B
Price of Spares C
Weapons, D etc etc
Ultimately the cost per plane will be A + B + C +D + ....) / Nos of planes.

If you did notice that in the RFP Rafale was declared L1 on basis of lower LCC, which means for assumed package as informed there. Even the ToT if any added and averaged out per plane..

Whatever I have calculated has a base and it seems only you do not agree with it, not surprising with your cock brain, I do not comprehend that you understand it either. The approx costing given by me would have been appoximate what we would have been paying (US$ 50 Bn) Now Dassault must be looking at this figure and now 6.5 Bn figure and crying its heart out having lost a big big chance to earn a fat cheque, Unfortunately France and Dassault are too greedy.

 

[smestarz]

English is the official langage of aerospace industry.
And no one never said this was a false report. The defence swiss ministry was angry about this leak.... because from the beginning he was a firm partisan of Gripen, and swiss air force don't want it... so.... a leak was organized.

Book order? Rafale were produced in serial 2 years before EF, and the line of EF will close well before Rafale, because european country are now involved in F35, which drain a lot of money, Germany has already reduce it's order, and there are only export contrats. Koweit help to postponed a little.

English maybe the language of the aerospace world, But evaluation of a plane by a govt is not a matter of International Aerospace but that of a Nation. Do you see the reports pertaining to Rafale used in France in ENGLISH IN YOUR SENATE REPORTS? You just said official language of aerospace industry .... ?

Even in India, for official things pertaining to GoI there are two languages, English and Hindi. So if a country evaluates something for its govt, it will report to its Govt in the official language, as the officials have to understand it. Does it make sense that a person who Evaluates the plane knows say 3 languages A B and C. A and B being the official language and C being the international language. Would he write the report in C lang and then get a translator to translate it in A and B?

Lets make it simple how many times has a French president who has gone out of France say to USA or any other English speaking country say India and given an official statement in English? I remember one had done, and it was some statement about nuclear Testing, was it Mitterand or Chirac not sure, but then there was outroar in France calling for his resignation...

There might be Swiss leak,, but that does not mean that the leak that is there is the genuine one.

Eurofighter is being produced by 4 different countries simulataneously, and that shows how capable the consortium was. They did business like a private sector company should. Where as France is subsidizing Dassault as its the only hope france has. IF Dassault closes shop, the French cannot talk of any aerospace industry.

 

[smestarz]

Never tired of posting all this nonsense, huh ?

Arms market is not like cars market. There are are very few " open " markets for fighter jets. India is one of them. The Americans tolerate the Eurofighter because it is an UK leaded project. Yet the Typhoon was only exported to Austria ( Germany' s neighbour) , Saudi Arabia, Oman and now Koweit. Thei American jets come with plenty of strings attached. There are no strings attached with Rafale. My advice to India : if you dont want to become like North Korea or Japan , never ever buy combat systems from US. Even buying Apache was a huge mistake.

I know what Arms market is and how it works. We are not Saudi or Oman, We are professional force and this has been acclaimed by everyone who has ever been associated with us. The American just with lot of strings yes, We also have 4 options from Russia,, MiG-35 with Israeli avionics, Su-30 MKI, Su-35S, PAKFA. and we have our own products too. The main difference between Japan and India is that Japan is geographically small and hence its defence requirement is for small nos but high quality. They do not have huge tract of land to put 50 squadrons, They would prefer to put just say 20 squadrons but make sure that each plane is top of the line and capable than the 50 squadrons of planes that other country has. Do you see Saudi, Oman, Kuwait or or even Germany as of now developing a 5th Gen plane? Japan are doing that, They would not mind paying high price for a 5th Gen plame but they know it will be well worth at least 10 generic planes that are in operation now and hence take care of the costs. Further, in Japan there are no chances of Kickbacks.. Thanks for the advice
Apache are the for the Army Strike capability against tank formations. We also have LCH and Rudra which are light Attack helicopters to compliment Apache, We do not keep all eggs in one basket. We know its dangerous to depend on one country.

 

[BON PLAN]

You can quit your whining, you keep talking like France is immune to US pressure, looking at the Russian Mistral deal clearly points to how France sings like a canary everytime Unkil lays down the cow boy charm. As far as India is concerned the experience with buying american is good so far, all aircraft are being delivered in time. EUMA related inspections have never been implemented and CISMOA was not signed when we didn't like the initial text. No loss here. As for the French, the Mirage upgrade deal with an arm twister in terms of cost, the same upgrade could have been done better by the Israelis at a lower cost and with better avionics. The Scorpene deal was again a nightmare when it comes to final execution, everything from price to TOT agreements were shitted upon by the French. Finally it comes down to what happens in reality and not what may or may not happen.

May be the Apache, P-8, C-130J, C-17, Chinook deals were a mistake but atleast they are always delivered on time, the deals were as transparent as they can get in the context and we know where every dollar went. The FMS system allows to have a clear view on where the costs are going. Also from experience of the last few years P-8, C-130J, C-17 have the best availability times, consistency in maintanence and recurring costs.

Don't go lecturing us on what to buy, while your own forces operate things like the Javelin, E-3 sentries, E-2Cs, Reaper UAVs, Tankers, C-130 etc.

NO.
We canceled the Mistral deal to be fair with others european country, specially north east one (Poland....).
We can't see Russia supporting civilian war in Ukrainia and taking Crimea without reaction.
It was the political decision of our President. I was not for, but it is the real reason.

If en israeli's update of M2000 cost less, why dealing with Dassault? think a lot with your brain and not your d..k

Scorpene? The first boat is only on sea (and not Under) that you conclude lack of ToT.... It's at the end you can conclude. The first is always made with a great amount of supplier component, and after there is a transfer to local Producer.
But are the local Producers at the right level to made such high tech component? It's just a question. Remember Boeing cancelling a contract for spares for lack of quality.

 

[BON PLAN]

Don't go lecturing us on what to buy, while your own forces operate things like the Javelin, E-3 sentries, E-2Cs, Reaper UAVs, Tankers, C-130 etc.

We are a small country, not economicaly able to do all our force need. Awacs? 4 +2 unit... too few. Reaper? Nothing to compete with and a need of 12 or 16 unit.

 

[BON PLAN]

The information on forum cannot be really taken as genuine unless reported officially by the parties involved (Dassault France or Indian govt)

I agree that the package has the costs but ultimately the total package cost reflects in the cost of the plane. One cannot buy the package without the planes, I mean do you buy Truck tyres if you do not own a truck? At least in India we dont.

Ultimately the calculation is that, Price of planes say A,
price of the maintenance package B
Price of Spares C
Weapons, D etc etc
Ultimately the cost per plane will be A + B + C +D + ....) / Nos of planes.

If you did notice that in the RFP Rafale was declared L1 on basis of lower LCC, which means for assumed package as informed there. Even the ToT if any added and averaged out per plane..

Whatever I have calculated has a base and it seems only you do not agree with it, not surprising with your cock brain, I do not comprehend that you understand it either. The approx costing given by me would have been appoximate what we would have been paying (US$ 50 Bn) Now Dassault must be looking at this figure and now 6.5 Bn figure and crying its heart out having lost a big big chance to earn a fat cheque, Unfortunately France and Dassault are too greedy.

We only can conclude at the end.
End = Rafale deal OR no deal.
For the moment, bargaining continue....

At the end or YOU or ME be (peacely) victorious. Let's see Guy.

 

[BON PLAN]

English maybe the language of the aerospace world, But evaluation of a plane by a govt is not a matter of International Aerospace but that of a Nation. Do you see the reports pertaining to Rafale used in France in ENGLISH IN YOUR SENATE REPORTS? You just said official language of aerospace industry .... ?

Even in India, for official things pertaining to GoI there are two languages, English and Hindi. So if a country evaluates something for its govt, it will report to its Govt in the official language, as the officials have to understand it. Does it make sense that a person who Evaluates the plane knows say 3 languages A B and C. A and B being the official language and C being the international language. Would he write the report in C lang and then get a translator to translate it in A and B?

Lets make it simple how many times has a French president who has gone out of France say to USA or any other English speaking country say India and given an official statement in English? I remember one had done, and it was some statement about nuclear Testing, was it Mitterand or Chirac not sure, but then there was outroar in France calling for his resignation...

There might be Swiss leak,, but that does not mean that the leak that is there is the genuine one.

Eurofighter is being produced by 4 different countries simulataneously, and that shows how capable the consortium was. They did business like a private sector company should. Where as France is subsidizing Dassault as its the only hope france has. IF Dassault closes shop, the French cannot talk of any aerospace industry.

I just note no one in the EF consortium said "it's not the true report"..... so it is.

French bashing is so deployed, that in such a case we heard them a lot.

 

[Tactical Frog]

English maybe the language of the aerospace world, But evaluation of a plane by a govt is not a matter of International Aerospace but that of a Nation. Do you see the reports pertaining to Rafale used in France in ENGLISH IN YOUR SENATE REPORTS? You just said official language of aerospace industry .... ?

Even in India, for official things pertaining to GoI there are two languages, English and Hindi. So if a country evaluates something for its govt, it will report to its Govt in the official language, as the officials have to understand it. Does it make sense that a person who Evaluates the plane knows say 3 languages A B and C. A and B being the official language and C being the international language. Would he write the report in C lang and then get a translator to translate it in A and B?

Lets make it simple how many times has a French president who has gone out of France say to USA or any other English speaking country say India and given an official statement in English? I remember one had done, and it was some statement about nuclear Testing, was it Mitterand or Chirac not sure, but then there was outroar in France calling for his resignation...

There might be Swiss leak,, but that does not mean that the leak that is there is the genuine one.

Eurofighter is being produced by 4 different countries simulataneously, and that shows how capable the consortium was. They did business like a private sector company should. Where as France is subsidizing Dassault as its the only hope france has. IF Dassault closes shop, the French cannot talk of any aerospace industry.

The evaluation report was leaked in Swiss German medias first :
http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2011/11/switzerland-armasuisewiss-ranked-rafale.html

 

[BON PLAN]

English maybe the language of the aerospace world, But evaluation of a plane by a govt is not a matter of International Aerospace but that of a Nation. Do you see the reports pertaining to Rafale used in France in ENGLISH IN YOUR SENATE REPORTS? You just said official language of aerospace industry .... ?

Even in India, for official things pertaining to GoI there are two languages, English and Hindi. So if a country evaluates something for its govt, it will report to its Govt in the official language, as the officials have to understand it. Does it make sense that a person who Evaluates the plane knows say 3 languages A B and C. A and B being the official language and C being the international language. Would he write the report in C lang and then get a translator to translate it in A and B?

Lets make it simple how many times has a French president who has gone out of France say to USA or any other English speaking country say India and given an official statement in English? I remember one had done, and it was some statement about nuclear Testing, was it Mitterand or Chirac not sure, but then there was outroar in France calling for his resignation...

There might be Swiss leak,, but that does not mean that the leak that is there is the genuine one.

Eurofighter is being produced by 4 different countries simulataneously, and that shows how capable the consortium was. They did business like a private sector company should. Where as France is subsidizing Dassault as its the only hope france has. IF Dassault closes shop, the French cannot talk of any aerospace industry.

Dassault is a private sector compagny (you can buy stakes of on the market), with a stake for the French state as it is a strategic compagny.

 

[Tactical Frog]

We are a small country, not economicaly able to do all our force need. Awacs? 4 +2 unit... too few. Reaper? Nothing to compete with and a need of 12 or 16 unit.

At least the Reaper' s successor is on track
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...germany-italy-uav-male-design-study/27545807/

When I am talking about strings attached , the Reaper is the perfect case study .. our American pals have requested we cannot use our own Reapers outside Africa .. grrr. Among other things .

 

[Jangaruda]

Rafale is a waste of our precious tym nd money.... Better to ditch the buying of rafale nd consider some other fighter

 

[Gessler]

Rafale is a waste of our precious tym nd money.... Better to ditch the buying of rafale nd consider some other fighter

LOL. And on what is this opinion of your's based upon?

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is a waste of our precious tym nd money.... Better to ditch the buying of rafale nd consider some other fighter

A russian one? You're full of, so a pb of autonomy.
A US one? When you'll need to use it, be affraid of a stop in delivering of spares and support (UAE experience)
Gripen? a good light plane, but you need a medium one. (MMRCA : M like.... Medium)
Tejas? study not terminated (complete combat system absolutely not mature), too light (see Gripen), and you can doubt HAL is able to deliver 15/20 pcs/year....
EF? Anticipate 10 years of dealing (4 nations....)

What else? euhhhhhh..... RAFALE !

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

A russian one? You're full of, so a pb of autonomy.
A US one? When you'll need to use it, be affraid of a stop in delivering of spares and support (UAE experience)
Gripen? a good light plane, but you need a medium one. (MMRCA : M like.... Medium)
Tejas? study not terminated (complete combat system absolutely not mature), too light (see Gripen), and you can doubt HAL is able to deliver 15/20 pcs/year....
EF? Anticipate 10 years of dealing (4 nations....)

What else? euhhhhhh..... RAFALE !

Wrong

Order more su30mki

40 more to be made in India by HAL &
,40 to be bought flyaway from Russia

80 du30mki & 120 tejas from HAL

 

[SajeevJino]

Wrong

Order more su30mki

40 more to be made in India by HAL &
,40 to be bought flyaway from Russia

80 du30mki & 120 tejas from HAL

Soon Iran too open a Sukhoi production line .. we will buy 40 from Iran too.makes the number 120 in short period

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale : India always talks about the price
According to the Indian Defence Minister , negotiations on the purchase of 36 Rafale could last several months. At issue: the price.
SOURCE AFP
Published on 02/18/2016 at 1:52 p.m. | the Point.fr

Negotiations on the purchase of 36 French Rafale combat aircraft by India always stumble over the price and could last several months, said Thursday the Indian defense minister. "The price is the problem yet to be solved, because as long as I do not get the right price, I can not sign, but we resolved the other issues in terms of safeguards, procurement and modalities manufacturing, "said Manohar Parrikar on channel India Today.
France and India have reached the end of January an interim agreement on the acquisition of 36 Rafale on the occasion of the visit of François Hollande in India, but without agreement on the financial arrangements. The CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, had then said he hoped to sign a contract within four weeks.
Optimism

"I can not hurry on the price as I am not satisfied," said the Indian minister. "We need the people concerned gather, exercise continues, I would say, for a few months," said Manohar Parrikar before specifying "do not want to set a deadline for the negotiations on the price." "I am optimistic about the success" of the negotiations, he said. He also assured that the two parties agreed on the fact that 50% of the contract amount will be invested on Indian soil. The amount of the contract is estimated at several billion euros.
The negotiations on the sale of French fighter aircraft to India for years are the red thread of relations between the two countries. Exclusive talks between Dassault and India over a wider control 126 devices had been opened in January 2012 without success. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi had then resized the contract by announcing in April that India wanted to buy 36 Rafale ready to use.