Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

But my love, I only answered to you when you said France or USA cannot handle such a range K77M is intended to have....
Your post is below :

smestarz said: ↑
K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

To have a small head is one thing (Zika effect ?). To loose memory another.

Dear Zika baby, did I not tell you that the missile that you mentioned is already retired?

 

[BON PLAN]

Let this proposal die a natural death. Dassault had declined to transfer their AESA radar tech. citing immaturity of Indian Defence industry to absorb it. About pricing, they are playing hard ball knowing well IAF is backing them to the hilt...and after all this they will not complete delivery before 2022 i.e,..after meeting their domestic demand. Shit..we are not beggars.

Dassault with the ramp up already decided is able to deliver all 36 before end of 2020 is an order arrived soon and for a plane not too different vs ADlA one.
Price is another thing. And nobody"s here knows exactly the truth.... It's a kind of poker game.

 

[BON PLAN]

For this deal there was no ToT in the cost, it was just to be the 36 planes in fly off conditions, weapons, spares, training and equipment for 2 bases. Now the Radar is from Thales, which is not part of Dassault Aviation. So for ToT of radar we would have to talk to Thales, The French have also in past tried to push us calling India as inferior, Even they are implying that Tejas is knock off of Mirage 2000. Incidentally Mirage III is knock of the American Convair F-102 Delta Dagger. Congress govts in the past have always potrayed India as a weak country and that is why other countries were eager to take benefit, Even for the Mirage 2000 upgrade, it cost more than a new Su-30 MKI. And Su-30 MKI outclasses even Rafale which the French say handles workload of 3 Mirage 2000. Aerospace industry is a buyers market and not sellers market. Congress govt and corrupt IAF top brass like NAK Browne have in past tried to push for Rafale deal by having press conference at critical times during price discussions which makes one wonder whose interest is the IAF chief looking at? And by the way, he is the same joker who wanted to scrap Tejas and insisted that Rafale deal is just US$ 10 billion for 126 planes. Now the people know what the true cost of the planes is when the Def minister informs it officially. There is no more speculation on price of the deal.

Also the projects which IAF were dismissing as being useless (Tejas and PAKFA/FGFA) are coming to reality and their true potential is being revealed. IAF which was earlier pushing the govt to get what it wants is now being told by the govt that they are professionals and they should justify the need for their needs and whims will not be considered. Let us now hear our ACM talk about "need for Rafale" I am sure the people of the country are going to ask him to first take steps to first secure the air bases where the planes are and learn to take care what they have rather than stupidly chasing something that we dont really need.

bla bla bla.
Not tired to write the same things post after post?

YOU don't like Rafalle.

IAF like Rafale.

The problem is you have nothing to say on this deal or no deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

Now the Radar is from Thales, which is not part of Dassault Aviation. So for ToT of radar we would have to talk to Thales,

The russian radars aren't made by the plane maker. So you would have to talk with Phazotron.
The US radars aren't made by the plane maker. So ...
The Eurofighter radars are politically under the authority of 4 country.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dear Zika baby, did I not tell you that the missile that you mentioned is already retired?

It's not the problem.
It prove that 40 years ago US was able to do what you think was impossible now !
You're too light for me my baby.

 

[gadeshi]

But my love, I only answered to you when you said France or USA cannot handle such a range K77M is intended to have....
Your post is below :

smestarz said: ↑
K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

To have a small head is one thing (Zika effect ?). To loose memory another.

R-77M (K-77M) does not exist.
There are R-77-1 (Item 177) and its export version R-77E-1 (Item 177E or RVV-SD).

And a new one for PAK FA internal bays - Item 180, its ramjet version Item-180PD and their export versions - Item 180E and Item 180PDE.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[BON PLAN]

Did you not read my post? Indians have given the final info to Dassault
The Offset are at 50% and this is already accepted.

The things Indians want and which seems non negotiatble is upto Rs 65000 crore for the package which is 30% less than what Dassault is quoting.

Also now GoI have given France/Dassault the time limit 31st March 2016 if France does not sign by then, then its bye bye Rafale. So now, its French turn to either accept or Reject.. We did give France a chance, but seems the french demands are exorbitant

Dassault never sell a product with loss. If these 30% are too much, and I doubt there is a 30% margin after 5 years of tractation.... No deal. And Dassault will not regret it in this case.

OR, OR, Dassault has a real agrement for next add on.... who knows???

France lost a max selling Leclerc Main Battle Tank to UAE (et those time Nexter was not a private society). Sure it will not arrived another time !

 

[smestarz]

bla bla bla.
Not tired to write the same things post after post?

YOU don't like Rafalle.

IAF like Rafale.

The problem is you have nothing to say on this deal or no deal.

I dont like Rafails, IAF liked Rafails
MoD made it clear to IAF that if Dassault does not discount it by 30% then no deal
Now IAF nor anyone is in no position to get 30% dscount.

Even if IAF likes it, its the GoI that pays and signs, so IAF can like whatever, the responsibility of what to buy is of GoI and not IAF... so good bye Rafail

 

[smestarz]

Dassault never sell a product with loss. If these 30% are too much, and I doubt there is a 30% margin after 5 years of tractation.... No deal. And Dassault will not regret it in this case.

OR, OR, Dassault has a real agrement for next add on.... who knows???

France lost a max selling Leclerc Main Battle Tank to UAE (et those time Nexter was not a private society). Sure it will not arrived another time !

Good then, we are in Agreement, that no Rafail for India.. now France has to come to terms with it, All that speculations and art of Rafail in IAF colours, best might be repainted

 

[sasum]

For this deal there was no ToT in the cost, it was just to be the 36 planes in fly off conditions, weapons, spares, training and equipment for 2 bases. Now the Radar is from Thales, which is not part of Dassault Aviation. So for ToT of radar we would have to talk to Thales, The French have also in past tried to push us calling India as inferior, Even they are implying that Tejas is knock off of Mirage 2000. Incidentally Mirage III is knock of the American Convair F-102 Delta Dagger. Congress govts in the past have always potrayed India as a weak country and that is why other countries were eager to take benefit, Even for the Mirage 2000 upgrade, it cost more than a new Su-30 MKI. And Su-30 MKI outclasses even Rafale which the French say handles workload of 3 Mirage 2000. Aerospace industry is a buyers market and not sellers market. Congress govt and corrupt IAF top brass like NAK Browne have in past tried to push for Rafale deal by having press conference at critical times during price discussions which makes one wonder whose interest is the IAF chief looking at? And by the way, he is the same joker who wanted to scrap Tejas and insisted that Rafale deal is just US$ 10 billion for 126 planes. Now the people know what the true cost of the planes is when the Def minister informs it officially. There is no more speculation on price of the deal.

Also the projects which IAF were dismissing as being useless (Tejas and PAKFA/FGFA) are coming to reality and their true potential is being revealed. IAF which was earlier pushing the govt to get what it wants is now being told by the govt that they are professionals and they should justify the need for their needs and whims will not be considered. Let us now hear our ACM talk about "need for Rafale" I am sure the people of the country are going to ask him to first take steps to first secure the air bases where the planes are and learn to take care what they have rather than stupidly chasing something that we dont really need.

This 36 Jet deal doesn't involve ToT, but here is what appeared in an IDN article:
"According to official sources, the negotiations have dragged on for so long due to issues related to 50% offsets requirement and transfer of technology. The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar, citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb critical technologies."
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/02/budget-2016-rafale-jet-deal-unlikely-in.html?m=1

 

[smestarz]

This 36 Jet deal doesn't involve ToT, but here is what appeared in an IDN article:
"According to official sources, the negotiations have dragged on for so long due to issues related to 50% offsets requirement and transfer of technology. The French, it appears, are unwilling to transfer technology such as that of the electronically scanned AESA radar, citing lack of maturity of the Indian defence industry to absorb critical technologies."
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/02/budget-2016-rafale-jet-deal-unlikely-in.html?m=1

Also read this article,
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-india-agree-details-rafale-offsets/75061854/

 

[Tactical Frog]

Seems to me that the Indian side is losing ground ;-) € 8 billion sounds okish looking at deals with Egypt and Qatar. Times of India was estimating the deal at $4 billion in January. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ring-Hollandes-visit/articleshow/50554942.cms
But with offsets and possibly several adds-on my bet is that we are heading to a € 9 billion deal.

 

[BON PLAN]

I dont like Rafails, IAF liked Rafails
MoD made it clear to IAF that if Dassault does not discount it by 30% then no deal
Now IAF nor anyone is in no position to get 30% dscount.

Even if IAF likes it, its the GoI that pays and signs, so IAF can like whatever, the responsibility of what to buy is of GoI and not IAF... so good bye Rafail

OK.
Paki will be very interested in....

 

[shankyz]

OK.
Paki will be very interested in....

Typical blackmail attitude.

Feel free to go and sell to Paki beggars.

Sent from Moto G using Tapatalk

 

[sasum]

Also read this article,
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...-india-agree-details-rafale-offsets/75061854/

I don't know...the above article is datelined Nov 8, 2015. Defence purchase negotiations keep changing in scope & dimension as govt has to shift goal-posts over time and selling companies tweak terms and conditions accordingly.

 

[smestarz]

Seems to me that the Indian side is losing ground ;-) € 8 billion sounds okish looking at deals with Egypt and Qatar. Times of India was estimating the deal at $4 billion in January. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ring-Hollandes-visit/articleshow/50554942.cms
But with offsets and possibly several adds-on my bet is that we are heading to a € 9 billion deal.

Actually you cannot be more far from the truth, Indian side is on steady ground they have already given their "final quote" to France, which is US$ 6 billion or so, but the French side seems to be insisting on 9 billion+ (some say upto 11 billion dollars)and this figure varies from source to source. Indian Def. Min has categorically informed the difference being 30% and this is hard for India to bridge, now its upto the French side if they accept the price and sign it, or they get out of it. Also to make it easy, the discussions will be valid by 31st March 2016
So now the clock is ticking for the french. How important is India for France and what potential they see in India.
As per me the deal is NO GO.
India already has several other options for example more Su-30 MKI, PAKFA/FGFA which is more advanced. Su-35S, And for the numbers part, its already being taken care by orders for Tejas.
Whatever Egypt or Qatar purchased is as per their negotiating skills, why would india use them as yardstick to decide the "fair price"

Also, this article is prior to the visit of Hollande, it is almost a month since he returned home, Seems the french are really eager to send waves to somehow get the deal. In Military aviation, India is one of the movers. If India purchases something, the world does take notice and that does help the sales.
Even for Brazilian competition, Brazilians did get report of the evaluation done by IAF of the various competitors

 

[smestarz]

OK.
Paki will be very interested in....

Actually you should sell to them. We shall be very glad to see them off with our Su-30 MKI or even Tejas 1A
in future.

 

[BON PLAN]

Typical blackmail attitude.

Feel free to go and sell to Paki beggars.

Sent from Moto G using Tapatalk

Just have a look to the previous mail before answering...

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually you cannot be more far from the truth, Indian side is on steady ground they have already given their "final quote" to France, which is US$ 6 billion or so, but the French side seems to be insisting on 9 billion+ (some say upto 11 billion dollars)and this figure varies from source to source. Indian Def. Min has categorically informed the difference being 30% and this is hard for India to bridge, now its upto the French side if they accept the price and sign it, or they get out of it. Also to make it easy, the discussions will be valid by 31st March 2016
So now the clock is ticking for the french. How important is India for France and what potential they see in India.
As per me the deal is NO GO.
India already has several other options for example more Su-30 MKI, PAKFA/FGFA which is more advanced. Su-35S, And for the numbers part, its already being taken care by orders for Tejas.
Whatever Egypt or Qatar purchased is as per their negotiating skills, why would india use them as yardstick to decide the "fair price"

Also, this article is prior to the visit of Hollande, it is almost a month since he returned home, Seems the french are really eager to send waves to somehow get the deal. In Military aviation, India is one of the movers. If India purchases something, the world does take notice and that does help the sales.
Even for Brazilian competition, Brazilians did get report of the evaluation done by IAF of the various competitors

Don't use the brazilian exemple. Brazil is in peace with all its neighbors. India not. And we will see what's happend when Gripen will have an engine shut down over the giant forest...
Rafale is a plane made for war, not for peace time borders operations.

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually you should sell to them. We shall be very glad to see them off with our Su-30 MKI or even Tejas 1A
in future.

Tejas 1A ...... against Rafale? You're a joker man. Your plane is to day at more an acrobatic team plane, not a war fighter.