Know Your 'Rafale'

[gadeshi]

Give me proof. And not a russian Wikipédia link please....

Wikipedia is for ignorant stupid hamsters.
There is only manufacturers site a true source.

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[gadeshi]

This is about R-77E-1: http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/902/

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[BON PLAN]

where as Meteor which has similar range is touted by French as LONG RANGE

Forget I'm french please.
METEOR is a european missile, mainly funded by GB.... and made by a european company, MBDA, with by exemple a stato développed and produce by a germany company...

 

[BON PLAN]

Lol, since you did ask for proof of R-77 here
http://www.deagel.com/Air-to-Air-Missiles/RVV-SD_a001032004.aspx
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/
Two links and both are not wikipedia, and mind it R-77 is medium range missile as per Russian standards where as Meteor which has similar range is touted by French as LONG RANGE.
There are other missiles like R-37 (AA-13 arrow) and Novator which boith have range twice as that of Meteor and further there is K-77M in the pipleline

They said :
This missile was designed as the Soviet/Russian counterpart to the United States Air Force AIM-120 AMRAAM. The R-77 enables the Mig-29 and Su-27 fighter aircraft families to engage multiple airborne threats simultaneously thanks to its fire and forget capability. There are other versions fitted with infrared and passive radar seekers instead of active radar homing. Future plans call for increasing the missile range well beyond 150 kilometers.
The RVV-SD air-to-air missile features an increased maximum range of up to 110 kilometers and can engage fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft as well as cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles

So it is as I said an AMRAAM competitor. Same range of weight....
Futur plan call for increasing range .... it is the stato version.
Maximum range of 110km : depend how you calculate range : fired from high altitude, and you leave the missile on a ballistic trajectory : easy to reach more than 100 km, like a rocket. But Pk at the end = 0,0000....

 

[BON PLAN]

What you did fail to notice is also DATE RETIRED.... 2004, and is there any missile used by USA or other Nato forces after it was retired? AIM-54 was retired and replaced by AMRAAM and AMRAAM does not have that range. By the way AIM-54 was F-14 TOMCAT SPECIFIC WEAPON ONLY, USA did not use it operationally on any other plane. And in contrast and as I pointed out R-77 is operational on many planes and that too in IAF

If US was able to do that 40 years ago..... absolutely no Pb to do so today. But for what use?
Phénix was intended to shoot Tu22 aver the sea, when they attacked US carriers. With quite no others plane in the air, because over the ocean.
A long range utility is questionnable, specially in high intensity war : too much plane in the air (foe but also friend!), too electronical conter mesures, situation evoluating too fastly. It's the way ADlA think. May be they are wrong. May be not.

 

[BON PLAN]

So, I was right, not all the Rafale operational have AESA . just few of those, .. Thank you.

60 (25 our 30 already delivered nearly) on 180 ordered. That is 1/3. Not so bad as fighters flew in pair ou more, and just one with radar open is enough.
Next batch (45) will have it of course.

 

[BON PLAN]

We are talking of Meteor yes, but the the point is that you are offering Meteor as a capability which in a way you are not really trusting (buying just 100 rounds)
As you rightly said Rafale can be good in small intensity wars with countries such as Libya which do not have credible air defence, but when it comes to countries like Pakistan which has more professional air force and with better weapons, its different ball game altogether.
We already have better air launched cruise missiles in works like Brahmos and Prahar, The point i am trying to again make is, buying Rafale is waste of tax payers money on plane which is inferior to what we use now (su-30MKI) and the French plane will not come with Qualfications of the various weapons we already use, but we have to pay extra for the qualifications (and which french dont want to do) but insist on india to buy expensive weapons package... I think i did try to explain clearly... as compared to Su-30 MKI, Rafale is just cannon fodder.
Please sell it to PAF we would love to shoot them down.

Yes, ADlA is not a fervent promotor of Meteor. They think such a range is useless. But we need to have it to match others west air force.
It's not because rafale fight in the sole conflict of today (ie small intensity) it is not abl to fight in high intensity one ! Don't badly translate my words please. Remenber Rafale is the second leg of France deterrence ! Normally the first to be used (last advertisement), so important to be sure our plane do its mission.
For the rest, you are a polemical guy, not more.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN, you are just an ignorant fool.
K-77-1 (Item-177) has 110 km range without ramjet engine. Meteor is about 100km with a ramjet. Ramjet is more effective on active part of trajectory when engine is on, but engine is on in 1/10 of the range, the rest trajectory is inertial with engine off. In this case ramjet intakes just create a parasite drag without useful output which reduces range and decrease maneurability because their drag eats inertial energy on turns.
This is because K-77PD (180km with ramjet) is not aimed to shoot down fighters (at least with one piece).
So EU engineers have just failed to make an effective missile. One time again after SkyFlash and Aspide fails.

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Guy, maybe you are a king about russian shit, but on european one, not.
110 km is a kind of "ballistic" trajectory of a missile fired at high altitude against a virtual target on the level 0.
the officially 100km+ of Meteor is with full Pk. And unofficially range is said to be at least 50% better.

An AMRAAM like used a booster and burnt all the first seconds. A stato missile has a booster to reach the right speed to open stato, and then the stato can be open ALL the trajectory. On this point you're wrong !

You compare a 175/190 kg missile, with fuel+oxidizer Inside the booster against a 185kg missile wich doesn't have to bring oxidizer.... Excuse me but it's clear ! Advantage to the second.

And Skyflash was a succes. Short range, but with an active seeker.
MICA is a great success.
Aspide? Yes. you're right.

 

[BON PLAN]

With US made GaAs TRMs instead of Thales failed indigenous ones

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FALSE. All european AESA (RBE2 AESA, and Selex futur one) used european made TRM. There is a special european factory to do so.

 

[BON PLAN]

This is about R-77E-1: http://www.ktrv.ru/production/68/649/902/

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OH ! YES !

And you think all is true?

It's like to think Georges Bush 2 said the truth about evil axis and massives destruction arms in Irak ....

 

[gadeshi]

OH ! YES !

And you think all is true?

It's like to think Georges Bush 2 said the truth about evil axis and massives destruction arms in Irak ....

It is all about export version which is traditionally 25% worse than internal used one. If KTRV says it is true, then it is so.
If Meteor has so brilliant (actually has inferior for the ramjet one) data, why MBDA hides the data? It will be a great advertisement
And compare the prices - $400K for R-77E-1 and $2.5M for Meteor with sucking flight package

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[gadeshi]

FALSE. All european AESA (RBE2 AESA, and Selex futur one) used european made TRM. There is a special european factory to do so.

Proof?
2 years ago this factory has reported a "success" of reducing one peace price from $1100 to $750 in 1000 peace batches which is fucking much while econimically sane is under $100 in a 1000 peace batches
Americans have 85 in 1000 peace batch, Russians have $75 in the same batches.
That's why all the western radars use NG-made TRMs which USA sells for $100 in a 1000 pieces batch. Even Israelis.

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[gadeshi]

And what about R-37 (Item 610):
It is heavy long range missile for AWACS, tankers, transports and heavy jammers shut up as well as for knocking down cruise missiles.
It had never been designed to shoot down fighters.
Nevertheless, its range is about 400km.

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[Tactical Frog]

No American electronics onboard Rafale, sorry. USA dont like Rafale and France wants to keep things 100% sovereign with components for Spectra and RBE2.

 

[gadeshi]

No American electronics onboard Rafale, sorry. USA dont like Rafale and France wants to keep things 100% sovereign with components for Spectra and RBE2.

Another one time: proof please!

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[cannonfodder]

Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price

Under pressure to conclude the much-hyped Rafale warplanes deal with France, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have fired a warning shot to the French negotiators to reduce the price by 30 per cent if they want to ink the deal in this financial year.

An MoD official said India wants to pay `65-68,000 crore (8 billion euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets fitted high-end weapons and radars systems, while Dassault-which manufactures the aircraft-has quoted `90,000 crore (12 billion euros).

Though the French have come down marginally on their previous stand, we have categorically told them to come down to nearly 30 per cent if they want to clinch the deal in the current financial year,” an MoD official told Express. IAF is expected to get the aircraft three years after signing the contract.

In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande visit to New Delhi as chief guest for the during Republic Day. In a joint statement on January 25, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in “a couple of days”. Dassault Aviation had also said it expected a complete agreement on the planes in four weeks.

Dassault negotiators are believed to have committed setting up a production line in India, but MoD officials are sticking to serious cost bargaining. Moreover, France has also apparently agreed to 30 per cent offsets in the Rafale deal, which means French companies such as Dassault will have to plough 30 per cent of the contract value back into India as offsets. From the beginning, MoD was eyeing at least 20 per cent less per aircraft compared to what was offered in the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal during UPA-II.

The 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond visual range missiles and defensive weapon systems. During his France visit, the Prime Minister had announced the decision to buy 36 Rafale jets, citing operational necessity of IAF, which is down to 34 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42.

http://idrw.org/rafale-slipstream-india-not-to-budge-on-lowering-jets-price/

 

[Abhishek Shrivastava]

In my opinion India does not need Rafel at the Moment. Instead we need smart weapons which can tackle Militants without direct human involvement.
We are loosing our soldiers fighting non sense militant, which is sad and not worthy.

 

[smestarz]

Guy, maybe you are a king about russian shit, but on european one, not.
110 km is a kind of "ballistic" trajectory of a missile fired at high altitude against a virtual target on the level 0.
the officially 100km+ of Meteor is with full Pk. And unofficially range is said to be at least 50% better.

An AMRAAM like used a booster and burnt all the first seconds. A stato missile has a booster to reach the right speed to open stato, and then the stato can be open ALL the trajectory. On this point you're wrong !

You compare a 175/190 kg missile, with fuel+oxidizer Inside the booster against a 185kg missile wich doesn't have to bring oxidizer.... Excuse me but it's clear ! Advantage to the second.

And Skyflash was a succes. Short range, but with an active seeker.
MICA is a great success.
Aspide? Yes. you're right.

You want to believe in all the crap that you spin, and expect others to prove what they say? Hilarious,
If the Range of Meteor is X they would prefer to put itt as X as that is good for their sales, else it would be competing with AMRAAM, Even the approx range of missile can known by the various weights and propellant used. So presently as its fair, let us go by the manufacters data what they give and dont spin your BS specially since you do not pu an official link about it

 

[smestarz]

Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price

Under pressure to conclude the much-hyped Rafale warplanes deal with France, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have fired a warning shot to the French negotiators to reduce the price by 30 per cent if they want to ink the deal in this financial year.

An MoD official said India wants to pay `65-68,000 crore (8 billion euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets fitted high-end weapons and radars systems, while Dassault-which manufactures the aircraft-has quoted `90,000 crore (12 billion euros).

Though the French have come down marginally on their previous stand, we have categorically told them to come down to nearly 30 per cent if they want to clinch the deal in the current financial year,” an MoD official told Express. IAF is expected to get the aircraft three years after signing the contract.

In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande visit to New Delhi as chief guest for the during Republic Day. In a joint statement on January 25, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in “a couple of days”. Dassault Aviation had also said it expected a complete agreement on the planes in four weeks.

Dassault negotiators are believed to have committed setting up a production line in India, but MoD officials are sticking to serious cost bargaining. Moreover, France has also apparently agreed to 30 per cent offsets in the Rafale deal, which means French companies such as Dassault will have to plough 30 per cent of the contract value back into India as offsets. From the beginning, MoD was eyeing at least 20 per cent less per aircraft compared to what was offered in the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal during UPA-II.

The 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond visual range missiles and defensive weapon systems. During his France visit, the Prime Minister had announced the decision to buy 36 Rafale jets, citing operational necessity of IAF, which is down to 34 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42.

http://idrw.org/rafale-slipstream-india-not-to-budge-on-lowering-jets-price/

So the difference is 30% and the time frame is till 31st March 2016 if this is to be believed (current financial year)

 

[Tactical Frog]

Another one time: proof please!

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Have a look at https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/p10-13_criticalmaterial_final.pdf
You don' t expect met to dismantle a RBE2 like it was an iPod, do you