Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Fighters jets actually spend most of their time in the parking lot, if the Rafale can't dominate the parking lot, how will it dominate the skies????

No, you don't understand.
F4 was winner because flying as Rafale was on the parking. If not..... F4 is to Rafale what a Fort T is to a Mustang.

 

[smestarz]

Darling? Hummmm.....
Gripen will have Meteor. has already AMRAAM, IRIS. 1° class armament.
Have you seen the Tejas Show on video? Sorry, but not impressiv.

Tejas is not an acrobatic aircraft but it is highly maneuverable, further it will be carrying the longer range R-77 missile which as of now out ranges the Meteor and AMRAAM . It will later have K-77M with AESA seeker, Two-pulse motor and that missile has almost twice the range of Meteor or AMRAAM, so when the tejas radar detects the planes even like Rafale, it can safely launch its K-77M missile well outside the missile range of its Meteor and then then the K-77M's own AESA will take over. Its not only the plane, but also the armament that it has. And there are more options like derby, python for shorter ranges. So Tejas with K-77M against even Rafale , Tejas is bound to emerge as the winner..

 

[Tactical Frog]

So he tried to get favourable deal with Hollande with 36 planes in fly off conditions and at price at same as French air force, unfortunately now Modi realises that French have been lying about the price all the time.

Absolutely . Modi asked for getting the Rafale at the same price as French air force. It is probably a good baseline for this deal. But later he also asked for offsets .. that is a game changer.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I don't think.
DA has already increased production rate. The ramp will grow to 33 pieces/year in 2018 (from 11 to day. that means 11 to 15 this year, maybe 20 in 2017 25/30 in 2018 , 33 in 2019).
France can reduce it's need to some pcs/year for 5 years. Saying 5/year
Egypte need it's plane 6/year.
Qatar will received its plane 11/year by 2018 +

=> There is space for India. nearly 10 in 2017, 10 to 15 each year after. The 36 could be delivered easily before end of 2020.

BUT (there always is at least a "but"...) to deliver these plane fastly :

1) India must not request a very exotic version of Rafale, if not there is developpement time. If it's F3 like during test it's OK, if not....
2) Has India enough cash to pay 10 to 15 plane /year ?

DA is able to deliver these plane fastly (see Egypt). The sole problem is price. And no one here knows exactly the story and liar game between France Govt and Indian Govt.

The question is not about timeline but about built in annual escalation 5% which are built into every contract so for a plane delivered after 3 years it becomes costly by 17% automatically due to escalations

Same is the case with spares

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Dassault will NEVER sell with a loss. If this plane is too costly for India : no deal and Dassault will never regret.

I really hope it turns out that way

I sincerely hope dasault sticks to 12 billions and maybe ask for 3 billion more

Which should lead to cancelation of deal

 

[BON PLAN]

Only to the French its not impressive, because they do see the Rafale deal to india FAILING, They did try hard using the various ways to kill Tejas, but unfortunately for the French, it persisted and stayed.

We have no possibility to kill Tejas. We even propose help to finish Kaveri. You don't want our help, or find it too costly and... Kaveri was killed in the egg (and please, don't say Kaveri is a great success.... it is even not a Drone engine).

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale did not have countries showing interest when it flew out of the country. Rather even now France has tund the purchase for the sale, means France is actually paying the customer to buy the Rafale. This might be a taste of sour grapes for France and Rafale and already you are showing the symtoms of the same

What is that story? We paid Customer to buy Rafale? You're mad Bro.
In this case we should have exported Rafale until 10 years ! First of all in 2007 with Morocco.
You really are not objectiv.

 

[BON PLAN]

China as of now would not be willing to get into war with India, but with all the Su-30 MKI and the MiG-29 SMT and MiG-29K we can safely take over the threat of China and Pakistan at the same time.

I'm afraid not.
It's not Paki which is the main threat. It is China. With SU, J11, J10, in the next future J20 and J31.... They are powerfull than India. In all role.
And honnestly, I like india. I found China too imperialist now.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas is not an acrobatic aircraft but it is highly maneuverable, further it will be carrying the longer range R-77 missile which as of now out ranges the Meteor and AMRAAM . It will later have K-77M with AESA seeker, Two-pulse motor and that missile has almost twice the range of Meteor or AMRAAM, so when the tejas radar detects the planes even like Rafale, it can safely launch its K-77M missile well outside the missile range of its Meteor and then then the K-77M's own AESA will take over. Its not only the plane, but also the armament that it has. And there are more options like derby, python for shorter ranges. So Tejas with K-77M against even Rafale , Tejas is bound to emerge as the winner..

K77 with more leg than Meteor? BS. What are your source? You can't compare a classical missile and a stato one.... the stato K77 is on the drawing board. Meteor is induce this year.

 

[BON PLAN]

So Tejas with K-77M against even Rafale , Tejas is bound to emerge as the winner..

Hi Hi HI.... Maybe at less than 200km from its own air base. You really are too optimistic.
In some posts you will say Tejas can outmatch F22 !

Focus on the end of study phase. It's not finished. The final version of Tejas is not born yet. So impossible to say such thing.

You are proud of Tejas and you're right, but it is and will remain a light, point to point fighter.

 

[smestarz]

I'm afraid not.
It's not Paki which is the main threat. It is China. With SU, J11, J10, in the next future J20 and J31.... They are powerfull than India. In all role.
And honnestly, I like india. I found China too imperialist now.

Purely on weapons to weapons basis.
PAF F-16 vs Su-30 MKI / MiG-29 IAF
PLAAF Su-35 etc etc vs Su-30 MKI IAF

IAF wont pit (if ever purchased by mistake) Rafale vs the chinese jets, it will be cannon fodder for the chinese planes. So Rafale in fact will only face the western sector (PAF) so in case of two front war, it will be advisable for India to dominate western sector with Su-30 MKI and then use MiG-29 to ensure the superiority, but on the eastern sector, they have to pit it against Su-30 MKI because if Rafale is put in easter sector, Rafale does not have the range, the firepower or capability to take on the Su-30 MKK or Su-35.
J-20 and J-31 are not in the production and to face them we need planes like PAKFA as that will bring the 5th gen capabilities, unfortunately Rafale is an older gen plane and not even capable to face Su-30 MKK let alone the likes of J-20

 

[smestarz]

K77 with more leg than Meteor? BS. What are your source? You can't compare a classical missile and a stato one.... the stato K77 is on the drawing board. Meteor is induce this year.

Technically France has not inducted Meteor so why are you talking about it as a capability? YOU DO NOT HAVE IT?
R-77 already outranges Meteor and AMRAAM and the best part is WE ALREADY HAVE IT, MiG-29, Su-30 MKI use these missiles and they will be qualified for Tejas too
K-77M should be available in few years and my estimate is that by the time France has purchased its 100 rounds of Meteor we shall be having maybe few rounds of K-77M (qualified for Su-30 MKI and MiG-29 and later for Tejas.
K-77M has almost twice the range of Meteor or AMRAAM

Have a read here
http://thediplomat.com/2013/12/new-russian-air-to-air-missiles-will-field-almost-perfect-accuracy/

K-77M at present info has an estimated range of upto 200 kms. by the way what is the range of Meteor or AMRAAM?

 

[smestarz]

Hi Hi HI.... Maybe at less than 200km from its own air base. You really are too optimistic.
In some posts you will say Tejas can outmatch F22 !

Focus on the end of study phase. It's not finished. The final version of Tejas is not born yet. So impossible to say such thing.

You are proud of Tejas and you're right, but it is and will remain a light, point to point fighter.

The production version Mk 1A is already flying, did you not see in Bahrain? Just few more qualification on missiles and it gets its FOC and that means in production. What you are talking about (study phase) is Tejas Mk2 and Mk3
It seems the sight of the Tejas flying and turning in Bahrain have really scared the french that they started $#itting their pants already. Tejas ia a platform like Rafale or Mirage 2000,

Rafale will have an AESA and so will Tejas, albeit, Tejas has a bigger nose and hence more chances of a bigger Radar and hence better detection range than Rafale. Advantage Tejas

Rafale has twin engines and longer range than Tejas.. Advantage Rafale.

Tejas will be having R-77 which outranges Meteor of Rafale, and later Tejas will have K-77M which will be more killer missile.. BIG ADVANTAGE TEJAS.

Thus if Rafale armed with Meteor faces Tejas with R-77, there is high chance that Tejas will win the combat. Because it will detect and fire at Rafale well before Rafale can fire. And with K-77M, Tejas will do it with much ease.

Rafales only hope is to somehow get into the dog fight range, but then it will be Derby/Python of Tejas vs MICA where things are more or less evenly matched, So, it might be a draw at WVR.
Actually with all this it might be soon that Rafale might end up being an expensive scrap.

versus F-22? Why not? F-22 is a stelath plane, but the Mk1A is not planed to have the phototronic radar that is developed by Russia for PAKFA. But AND WITH BIG IF, India buys/uses that Russian tech and produces a Radar for Tejas, then Phoototronic Radar + K-77M and we can take on even F-22. Unfortunately as of now there is no news about Phototronic Radar for Tejas.But maybe in future.

 

[vishwaprasad]

The production version Mk 1A is already flying, did you not see in Bahrain? Just few more qualification on missiles and it gets its FOC and that means in production. What you are talking about (study phase) is Tejas Mk2 and Mk3
It seems the sight of the Tejas flying and turning in Bahrain have really scared the french that they started $#itting their pants already. Tejas ia a platform like Rafale or Mirage 2000,

Rafale will have an AESA and so will Tejas, albeit, Tejas has a bigger nose and hence more chances of a bigger Radar and hence better detection range than Rafale. Advantage Tejas

Rafale has twin engines and longer range than Tejas.. Advantage Rafale.

Tejas will be having R-77 which outranges Meteor of Rafale, and later Tejas will have K-77M which will be more killer missile.. BIG ADVANTAGE TEJAS.

Thus if Rafale armed with Meteor faces Tejas with R-77, there is high chance that Tejas will win the combat. Because it will detect and fire at Rafale well before Rafale can fire. And with K-77M, Tejas will do it with much ease.

Rafales only hope is to somehow get into the dog fight range, but then it will be Derby/Python of Tejas vs MICA where things are more or less evenly matched, So, it might be a draw at WVR.
Actually with all this it might be soon that Rafale might end up being an expensive scrap.

versus F-22? Why not? F-22 is a stelath plane, but the Mk1A is not planed to have the phototronic radar that is developed by Russia for PAKFA. But AND WITH BIG IF, India buys/uses that Russian tech and produces a Radar for Tejas, then Phoototronic Radar + K-77M and we can take on even F-22. Unfortunately as of now there is no news about Phototronic Radar for Tejas.But maybe in future.

Wow Tejas has so many advantages over Rafale...Poor IAF should note this post... Means we are just one step closer to defeat Raptor ....

 

[BON PLAN]

IAF wont pit (if ever purchased by mistake) Rafale vs the chinese jets, it will be cannon fodder for the chinese planes.

Explain why? Rafale is able to face russian planes, so chineese.... easyer.

 

[BON PLAN]

Technically France has not inducted Meteor so why are you talking about it as a capability? YOU DO NOT HAVE IT?
R-77 already outranges Meteor and AMRAAM and the best part is WE ALREADY HAVE IT, MiG-29, Su-30 MKI use these missiles and they will be qualified for Tejas too
K-77M should be available in few years and my estimate is that by the time France has purchased its 100 rounds of Meteor we shall be having maybe few rounds of K-77M (qualified for Su-30 MKI and MiG-29 and later for Tejas.
K-77M has almost twice the range of Meteor or AMRAAM

Have a read here
http://thediplomat.com/2013/12/new-russian-air-to-air-missiles-will-field-almost-perfect-accuracy/

K-77M at present info has an estimated range of upto 200 kms. by the way what is the range of Meteor or AMRAAM?

Meteor is induced this year on Gripen. So Meteor is operationnal in some month. Who speak here about Rafale?
Meteor out range actual K77 by a large margin. (Meteor : officially more than 100km (and unofficially near 150km) K77 : 80 km)
K77 is an ARRAAM like. not a Meteor like.
Stoto K77 is on the drawing board.
It's not because I say "my Toyoya Lexus is able to reach 250km/h that it's true". Too easy before engineering to promise extraordinary perf....

 

[BON PLAN]

Tejas ia a platform like Rafale or Mirage 2000

Like Mirage 2000, maybe. Tomorrow.
Like Rafale, never. It's like to compare F16 and F15 (but in my case, a F15 with FBW)

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale will have an AESA

AESA delivered on all Rafale until 2013.

 

[smestarz]

Wow Tejas has so many advantages over Rafale...Poor IAF should note this post... Means we are just one step closer to defeat Raptor ....

In modern era each plane has some edge over the other, and its upto the pilots to realise it and then use to their advantage. And that is where Tactics are very important. ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ADVANTAGE TEJAS HAS OVER RAFALE IS PRICE. Considering that Rafale say costs abt US$ 200 million + per plane, we can at same time buy 5 Tejas, Numbers is also an attribute. Bigger nose means bigger radar and hence longer detection does it not? One of the big advantage Rafale has is twin engines, longer range and higher top speed. . But Tejas can have a longer ranged radar and also HAS LONGER RANGED MISSILE. Its simple logic.. Give it some time and you will notice that IAF realises that MMRCA was a bad atter thought

 

[smestarz]

AESA delivered on all Rafale until 2013.

You mean to say all Rafales in service are carrying AESA?