Know Your 'Rafale'

BON PLAN

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It's coz you went crying like a bitch to your saviours across the channel and the Atlantic. Anyways, moron you know little about flags, I am in Belgium you franco-fon piece of shit
In Belgium also there are sausage eaters. First of all : You.

And I know Belgium very weel : I was born in Belgium, I live near the belgium border for 20 years and I've spent all my summer Holidays in belgium these 20 years.

So are you Deutch or Belgian ?
 
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BON PLAN

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The same Brazilian pilots had dogfight kills on the Rafale using the F-4. Why discuss Brazil or any other competitive sale for that matter, so far all have been failures, including Switzerland. Only the stooges at Dassault are capable of not selling a great aircraft. Materials matter little, finally in this day and age what matters is cost and value.
Brazil hasn't any F4.... another proof of your inexperience, young Jedi ! :blah::pound::blah:
 

BON PLAN

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fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin
PTI | Feb 10, 2016, 06.13 PM IST
The Indian "perspective multirole fighter" is to be based on the under development Russian FGFA called PAK-FA ... Read More
NEW DELHI: After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Alsom cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.

A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said. "We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday," the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues. Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

So PAKFA is a long long road again....
 
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smestarz

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fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin
PTI | Feb 10, 2016, 06.13 PM IST
The Indian "perspective multirole fighter" is to be based on the under development Russian FGFA called PAK-FA ... Read More
NEW DELHI: After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Alsom cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.

A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said. "We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday," the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues. Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

So PAKFA is a long long road again....
You did not understand the article did you?
 

BON PLAN

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You did not understand the article did you?
TOTAL ARTICLE :

fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin
PTI | Feb 10, 2016, 06.13 PM IST
The Indian "perspective multirole fighter" is to be based on the under development Russian FGFA called PAK-FA.

NEW DELHI: After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Alsom cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.

A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said. "We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday," the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues. Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK-FA fighters. In 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter.

The code name of the project in India is perspective multirole fighter (PMF).

The Russian delegation will also hold talks with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 200 Kamov 226T light helicopters to replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, in a deal estimated to be worth $1 billion under the "Make in India" initiative.
The defence ministry had in August last year scrapped a scam-tainted tender worth over Rs 6,000 crore to procure 197 light utility helicopters for Army and Air Force to replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are used to move troops and equipment to high-altitude locations like Siachen.
Following Russia's offer to manufacture Kamov in India, the defence acquisition council, chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, accepted it.
Though the initial order is only for 200 helicopters, it is likely to be increased later on.

SO TO DAY THE PAKFA / FGFA IS FAR FROM BEIING INDUCE. we only speak of ToT and 3 prototypes...for 3.7 billion. Negociations in course... Let's spend 7 to 10 years and 1 or 2 billion more to see the first in IAF I think.
 

smestarz

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TOTAL ARTICLE :

fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin
PTI | Feb 10, 2016, 06.13 PM IST
The Indian "perspective multirole fighter" is to be based on the under development Russian FGFA called PAK-FA.

NEW DELHI: After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Alsom cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.

A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said. "We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday," the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues. Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK-FA fighters. In 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter.

The code name of the project in India is perspective multirole fighter (PMF).

The Russian delegation will also hold talks with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 200 Kamov 226T light helicopters to replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, in a deal estimated to be worth $1 billion under the "Make in India" initiative.
The defence ministry had in August last year scrapped a scam-tainted tender worth over Rs 6,000 crore to procure 197 light utility helicopters for Army and Air Force to replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are used to move troops and equipment to high-altitude locations like Siachen.
Following Russia's offer to manufacture Kamov in India, the defence acquisition council, chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, accepted it.
Though the initial order is only for 200 helicopters, it is likely to be increased later on.

SO TO DAY THE PAKFA / FGFA IS FAR FROM BEIING INDUCE. we only speak of ToT and 3 prototypes...for 3.7 billion. Negociations in course... Let's spend 7 to 10 years and 1 or 2 billion more to see the first in IAF I think.
You still did not understand the article, The Article is Kamov Ka-226 centric ad there is some info about PAKFA and the details you posted are available from 25th Jan 2016, so you are late to post this.

The PAKFA discussion is going on with India to get 3 planes for testing, and these planes shall be be tested by IAF and then the modffications suggested for the Indian version FGFA or you can call it PAKFA MKI.
 

tejas warrior

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No Rafale deal unless price is right: ParrikarParrikar

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 19th Feb 16


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar bluntly stated on Thursday that negotiations for buying 36 Rafale fighters from French aerospace vendor, Dassault, were deadlocked on the issue of price, and that no deal would be signed until the price was right.

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. “The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily --- about 25 per cent.”

Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Euro 12 billion (Rs 91,548 crore), while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Euro 9 billion (Rs 68,499 crore).

Parrikar told India Today TV: “Price is the problem which has to be resolved. Unless I get the right price, I cannot sign.”

Debunking recent media articles that a deal was imminent, most recently in Hindustan Times on February 11, Parrikar said ironing out the remaining issues would take “a few months”.

Pressed on the question of time-frame, Parrikar responded: “You can’t commit yourself to a time, because this is not a negotiation for a few hundred crores. This is thousands of crores. I should not… put a time line on my price negotiation.”

On January 25, during his visit to Delhi, French President Francois Hollande declared after signing an inter-governmental agreement for the supply of 36 Rafales, “There are some financial issues that will be sorted out in a couple of days…” It now appears he may have been speaking figuratively.

On January 27, French ambassador to New Delhi, Francois Richier, put a deadline of four months for the price to be negotiated.

Today, Parrikar also confirmed that India had demanded offsets worth 50 per cent of the deal value, and that Dassault had agreed to that condition.

“We have resolved all the other issues. There were terms of guarantees, there were terms of supply, there were terms of how it will be done”, said Parrikar.

The defence minister denied that the window was open for buying more Rafale fighters, beyond the 36 being currently negotiated. “As of now, the negotiation is for 36 (fighters). There are many possibilities, but this deal is for 36”, he said.

When Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on a visit to Paris last April, requested for 36 Rafales, New Delhi and had Paris agreed the price would be less than what Dassault had quoted in response to the Indian tender of 2007 for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). Of those 126 fighters, the first 18 were to be supplied in “flyaway condition”, i.e. fully built. Since 36 Rafales are now being bought in “flyaway condition”, their per-piece price must be lower than what Dassault quoted for those 18 fighters.


The Indian Air Force had chosen the Rafale on January 31, 2012, in India’s tender for 126 MMRCA aircraft. However, in protracted price negotiations that followed, the defence ministry found problems in Dassault’s financial bid. Eventually, Modi chose to abandon the MMRCA tender, and instead buy 36 Rafales over-the-counter.
 

BON PLAN

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You still did not understand the article, The Article is Kamov Ka-226 centric ad there is some info about PAKFA and the details you posted are available from 25th Jan 2016, so you are late to post this.

The PAKFA discussion is going on with India to get 3 planes for testing, and these planes shall be be tested by IAF and then the modffications suggested for the Indian version FGFA or you can call it PAKFA MKI.
Not only about Ka226.

Indian PAKFA project was frozzed.
It will cost at least 3.7 billions to have ToT (what ToT ?) and 3 prototypes.
Lead time? some years. And years in Indian langage is not what we see on a calendar.

So PAKFA MKI is a mid term solution. not a short one.
 
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BON PLAN

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PM Modi’s Russia visit: New, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter planes
The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

Written by Sushant Singh | New Delhi | Updated: December 23, 2015 9:02 am
Russia President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi. (Source: AP photo)
Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.

Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.


India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion. (ouh ouh.... without support, weapons....)

The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.

But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”

Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...-on-sukhoi-fighter-jets/#sthash.2bKbeT8N.dpuf
 
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PaliwalWarrior

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127 fgfa in 30 billions and

36 rafales in 12 billions ?
= 108 rafales in 36 billions !!!!!

Forget rafales get fgfa
 

tejas warrior

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Reasons Why the Modi govt stuck on Rafale
Posted on February 19, 2016 by Bharat Karnad
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a TV interview (to Karan Thapar) yesterday evening sounded very determined that 36 Rafales would be brought from Dassault Avions, France, and that Paris would have to meet Delhi’s stated price (not exceeding $7 billion, which figure, of course, he didn’t mention). In this context, when queried about the significance of the MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) signed when Hollande was here for the Republic Day parade, he stated that this document is “meaningful only to the extent that the procedure [for advancing the deal] is laid out.” The only relief for India, ironically, would be if the French too stick to their negotiating figure of $11+ billion.

The trouble with making price the decisive factor — “Price, he said, “is the only issue…is the problem”, and implied India would walk away from the deal unless India “gets the right price” — is that all the other negatives attending on this horrendous buy are sought to be ignored. While the Indian position is now firmed up, Parrikar’s support for the Rafale suggests that despite his instinct telling him to go in for many more Su-30MKIs obtainable for the same investment, the BJP regime feels bound to honour PM Narendra Modi’s word to Hollande, and is doing its mostest to get the deal done, whatever the other costs (such as complicating operations, logistics, infrastructure, etc) that the IAF and country will have to bear for decades to come.

This raises the question — what exactly is Paris’ quid for the Indian quo? Some well connected persons believe it is Hollande’s promise of supporting India’s candidature for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council, whenever that issue formally comes up for consideration. Realistically speaking, and short of the UN imploding as did the League of Nations in the 1930s when that body proved incapable of stopping Mussolini from occupying Ethiopia, Imperial Japan from absorbing Manchuria, and Hitler from taking over the Sudentanland region of Czechoslovakia, and a new world body is erected in its place, that is never. The provincial politician in Modi, however, seems to be acting as per the Gujarati trader’s credo of honouring a verbal commitment. Except the Rafale deal is in the external realm where “the word” counts for less than nothing, a fact-of-life the PM either does not understand and, if he does, does not quite appreciate. And India ends up paying the price. Any argument therefore about the uneconomical aspects of the Rafale deal are for the birds!

But why’s the IAF so dumb as to disregard the operational aspects and push so vehemently for the Rafale? In a previous piece, I had stated that for the unit cost of $270 million per Rafale, India could buy three LCAs @ $90 million or 2 Su-MKIs @ $130 million. Vice Admiral AK Singh, former FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, and a stalwart of the military procurement process, called to say that my figures were, perhaps, for fully weaponised Tejas and Su-30 and, by way of more “correct” figures, mentioned that the cost of a clean Tejas (as released by HAL) is $30 million, and $50 million for a Su-30MKI. By the AK Singh calculus then the country can have NINE LCAs or FIVE Su-30s. Fully armed and equipped, the cost figures for these three aircraft get even more skewed. A basic weapons load (of A2A missiles & A2G rockets/bombs) will up the price of a Rafale to $400 million per aircraft, $50 million/Tejas, and $90 million/Su-30. Thus, all-up cost ($400 million) of a Rafale will actually fetch IAF EIGHT fully-armed Tejas and 4.5 Su-30s.

In my books and writings have stressed the importance of quantity over quality, and how an exorbitantly-priced Rafale, assuming it is fielded in war considering the Indian military’s inclination to not deploy its most prized platforms during hostilities (recall Vikrant confined to Vizag harbour during the 1965 War! Mirage 2000 was featured in Kargil because of Vajpayee govt’s order to IAF not to cross LoC) would be swarmed and killed by the more numerous Pakistan-assembled, Russian MiG-21 design Chinese rejigged JF-17s, say, each costing Islamabad no more than $22 million. (The $22 million price tag for the JF-17 being disclosed to VADM Singh by retd PAF AVM Shehzad Chaudhury at a recent 2nd-track meet.)

Indian armed services are known for stodginess, not strategic imagination and operational verve. And the civilian bureaucrats running the show in MOD are entirely innocent of any specialized knowledge. So one can pretty much know the quality of advice provided the national security-wise unlettered politicians. Even so, one expected Parrikar to be a bit more on the ball, use his common sense and publicly available information to +try and convince Modi about the sheer wastefulness of the Rafale deal, and decide on more reasonable, money-saving, options (including purchasing Mirage 2000s from UAE and Qatar, as proposed in an earlier blog).

Then again, just may be, IIT grads are not all they are cracked up to be.
 

BON PLAN

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127 fgfa in 30 billions and

36 rafales in 12 billions ?
= 108 rafales in 36 billions !!!!!

Forget rafales get fgfa
Who said 12 billions ?
In the 30 billions no weapons, no spare, no training, no support, no air bases adaptation. Just 127 planes on the parking.
And 30 billions to day are... 50 in 5 years.
and 7 years to day will be 10 ore 12.
 

BON PLAN

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Reasons Why the Modi govt stuck on Rafale
Posted on February 19, 2016 by Bharat Karnad
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in a TV interview (to Karan Thapar) yesterday evening sounded very determined that 36 Rafales would be brought from Dassault Avions, France, and that Paris would have to meet Delhi’s stated price (not exceeding $7 billion, which figure, of course, he didn’t mention). In this context, when queried about the significance of the MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) signed when Hollande was here for the Republic Day parade, he stated that this document is “meaningful only to the extent that the procedure [for advancing the deal] is laid out.” The only relief for India, ironically, would be if the French too stick to their negotiating figure of $11+ billion.

The trouble with making price the decisive factor — “Price, he said, “is the only issue…is the problem”, and implied India would walk away from the deal unless India “gets the right price” — is that all the other negatives attending on this horrendous buy are sought to be ignored. While the Indian position is now firmed up, Parrikar’s support for the Rafale suggests that despite his instinct telling him to go in for many more Su-30MKIs obtainable for the same investment, the BJP regime feels bound to honour PM Narendra Modi’s word to Hollande, and is doing its mostest to get the deal done, whatever the other costs (such as complicating operations, logistics, infrastructure, etc) that the IAF and country will have to bear for decades to come.

This raises the question — what exactly is Paris’ quid for the Indian quo? Some well connected persons believe it is Hollande’s promise of supporting India’s candidature for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council, whenever that issue formally comes up for consideration. Realistically speaking, and short of the UN imploding as did the League of Nations in the 1930s when that body proved incapable of stopping Mussolini from occupying Ethiopia, Imperial Japan from absorbing Manchuria, and Hitler from taking over the Sudentanland region of Czechoslovakia, and a new world body is erected in its place, that is never. The provincial politician in Modi, however, seems to be acting as per the Gujarati trader’s credo of honouring a verbal commitment. Except the Rafale deal is in the external realm where “the word” counts for less than nothing, a fact-of-life the PM either does not understand and, if he does, does not quite appreciate. And India ends up paying the price. Any argument therefore about the uneconomical aspects of the Rafale deal are for the birds!

But why’s the IAF so dumb as to disregard the operational aspects and push so vehemently for the Rafale? In a previous piece, I had stated that for the unit cost of $270 million per Rafale, India could buy three LCAs @ $90 million or 2 Su-MKIs @ $130 million. Vice Admiral AK Singh, former FOC-in-C, Eastern Naval Command, and a stalwart of the military procurement process, called to say that my figures were, perhaps, for fully weaponised Tejas and Su-30 and, by way of more “correct” figures, mentioned that the cost of a clean Tejas (as released by HAL) is $30 million, and $50 million for a Su-30MKI. By the AK Singh calculus then the country can have NINE LCAs or FIVE Su-30s. Fully armed and equipped, the cost figures for these three aircraft get even more skewed. A basic weapons load (of A2A missiles & A2G rockets/bombs) will up the price of a Rafale to $400 million per aircraft, $50 million/Tejas, and $90 million/Su-30. Thus, all-up cost ($400 million) of a Rafale will actually fetch IAF EIGHT fully-armed Tejas and 4.5 Su-30s.

In my books and writings have stressed the importance of quantity over quality, and how an exorbitantly-priced Rafale, assuming it is fielded in war considering the Indian military’s inclination to not deploy its most prized platforms during hostilities (recall Vikrant confined to Vizag harbour during the 1965 War! Mirage 2000 was featured in Kargil because of Vajpayee govt’s order to IAF not to cross LoC) would be swarmed and killed by the more numerous Pakistan-assembled, Russian MiG-21 design Chinese rejigged JF-17s, say, each costing Islamabad no more than $22 million. (The $22 million price tag for the JF-17 being disclosed to VADM Singh by retd PAF AVM Shehzad Chaudhury at a recent 2nd-track meet.)

Indian armed services are known for stodginess, not strategic imagination and operational verve. And the civilian bureaucrats running the show in MOD are entirely innocent of any specialized knowledge. So one can pretty much know the quality of advice provided the national security-wise unlettered politicians. Even so, one expected Parrikar to be a bit more on the ball, use his common sense and publicly available information to +try and convince Modi about the sheer wastefulness of the Rafale deal, and decide on more reasonable, money-saving, options (including purchasing Mirage 2000s from UAE and Qatar, as proposed in an earlier blog).

Then again, just may be, IIT grads are not all they are cracked up to be.
If you can have 4,5 x SU for one Rafale, I don't understand why you are always discussing with Dassault ! Order immediatly 36 x 4.5 = 162 SU. Please !!! You need it. Go fast.

I don't think Indians top are mad or greedy (maybe a little, but just a little). The equation is not so easy.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Who said 12 billions ?
In the 30 billions no weapons, no spare, no training, no support, no air bases adaptation. Just 127 planes on the parking.
And 30 billions to day are... 50 in 5 years.
and 7 years to day will be 10 ore 12.
You speak as if rafales will come next day without any cost escalations

Even rafales will be delivered after 3 years and within 7 years

They too will apply cost escalations clauses

So 300/million will become 450/million
 

smestarz

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Not only about Ka226.

Indian PAKFA project was frozzed.
It will cost at least 3.7 billions to have ToT (what ToT ?) and 3 prototypes.
Lead time? some years. And years in Indian langage is not what we see on a calendar.

So PAKFA MKI is a mid term solution. not a short one.
Actually PAKFA discussion is going on, and the level of ToT is being discussed with Russia relaxing its stance, now the Defence minister has made it clear that the difference in prices are few thousand crores and some make tit as different as 20-25%. So in a way Rafale deal seems have hit the roads where s PAKFA is being discussed. Also now the Indian currency is depreciating and hence automatically the price for Rafale goes up in terms of Indian currency... and for Russia, their currency has depreciated too, so in a way it has balanced out.
 

smestarz

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Who said 12 billions ?
In the 30 billions no weapons, no spare, no training, no support, no air bases adaptation. Just 127 planes on the parking.
And 30 billions to day are... 50 in 5 years.
and 7 years to day will be 10 ore 12.
Now you know why Rafale bid was considered unreliable and two members had objections, Some few months ago and still many french members still want people to believe that the flyway cost of Rafale is less than 80 million dollars. Anyway, I do not consider you as reliable source.
the point being that again.. TEJAS AND SU-30 MKI AND EVEN PAKFA SEEMS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFICIENT PLANES THAN BUYING RAFALE
 

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