Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

Who said 12 billions ?
In the 30 billions no weapons, no spare, no training, no support, no air bases adaptation. Just 127 planes on the parking.
And 30 billions to day are... 50 in 5 years.
and 7 years to day will be 10 ore 12.

Now you know why Rafale bid was considered unreliable and two members had objections, Some few months ago and still many french members still want people to believe that the flyway cost of Rafale is less than 80 million dollars. Anyway, I do not consider you as reliable source.
the point being that again.. TEJAS AND SU-30 MKI AND EVEN PAKFA SEEMS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFICIENT PLANES THAN BUYING RAFALE

 

[smestarz]

It sounds so movie like

" the deal is there on the table take it or leave it "

That is precisely what the French negotiating team does not understand, It is no longer a sellers market, there are a lot of sellers who want to sell to India at Indian terms

 

[smestarz]

You speak as if rafales will come next day without any cost escalations

Even rafales will be delivered after 3 years and within 7 years

They too will apply cost escalations clauses

So 300/million will become 450/million

I dont think 300 million will become 450 million unless the GoI is going to ask for delaying the production or that Indian govt does not pay the installments. But even now the prices offered by French are are too high.
I guess its best for them to sell to the middle east countries who are more comfortable paying the price using their oil.

 

[BON PLAN]

You speak as if rafales will come next day without any cost escalations

Even rafales will be delivered after 3 years and within 7 years

They too will apply cost escalations clauses

So 300/million will become 450/million

I don't think.
DA has already increased production rate. The ramp will grow to 33 pieces/year in 2018 (from 11 to day. that means 11 to 15 this year, maybe 20 in 2017 25/30 in 2018 , 33 in 2019).
France can reduce it's need to some pcs/year for 5 years. Saying 5/year
Egypte need it's plane 6/year.
Qatar will received its plane 11/year by 2018 +

=> There is space for India. nearly 10 in 2017, 10 to 15 each year after. The 36 could be delivered easily before end of 2020.

BUT (there always is at least a "but"...) to deliver these plane fastly :

1) India must not request a very exotic version of Rafale, if not there is developpement time. If it's F3 like during test it's OK, if not....
2) Has India enough cash to pay 10 to 15 plane /year ?

DA is able to deliver these plane fastly (see Egypt). The sole problem is price. And no one here knows exactly the story and liar game between France Govt and Indian Govt.

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually PAKFA discussion is going on, and the level of ToT is being discussed with Russia relaxing its stance, now the Defence minister has made it clear that the difference in prices are few thousand crores and some make tit as different as 20-25%. So in a way Rafale deal seems have hit the roads where s PAKFA is being discussed. Also now the Indian currency is depreciating and hence automatically the price for Rafale goes up in terms of Indian currency... and for Russia, their currency has depreciated too, so in a way it has balanced out.

As RAFALE disussion is going on.

With India all is going on. But nobody knows when it will end.

 

[BON PLAN]

Now you know why Rafale bid was considered unreliable and two members had objections, Some few months ago and still many french members still want people to believe that the flyway cost of Rafale is less than 80 million dollars. Anyway, I do not consider you as reliable source.
the point being that again.. TEJAS AND SU-30 MKI AND EVEN PAKFA SEEMS CHEAPER AND MORE EFFICIENT PLANES THAN BUYING RAFALE

TEJAS more efficient ? You're pulling my leg. It doesn't match Gripen ! Cheaper OK. More efficient NO.
SU30 ? Yes a real beast.
PAKFA : a paper plane. As SU47 BERKUT was in its time. With petrol crisis, let's see if Russia can afford to finish it. Last news was that Russian air force will only receive 1 squad. ONE SQUAD !!! Sure it's sexy enough to hurry study, R&D, tests.....

 

[BON PLAN]

That is precisely what the French negotiating team does not understand, It is no longer a sellers market, there are a lot of sellers who want to sell to India at Indian terms

Dassault will NEVER sell with a loss. If this plane is too costly for India : no deal and Dassault will never regret.

 

[Immanuel]

In Belgium also there are sausage eaters. First of all : You.

And I know Belgium very weel : I was born in Belgium, I live near the belgium border for 20 years and I've spent all my summer Holidays in belgium these 20 years.

So are you Deutch or Belgian ?

Damn you are Belge then, good for you, I am neither, I am an Indian. Quit your bitching and change your flag first.

 

[Immanuel]

Brazil hasn't any F4.... another proof of your inexperience, young Jedi ! :blah::blah:

Ooops my bad, its worse, it was a German F-4, must be humiliating

 

[Immanuel]

Who said 12 billions ?
In the 30 billions no weapons, no spare, no training, no support, no air bases adaptation. Just 127 planes on the parking.
And 30 billions to day are... 50 in 5 years.
and 7 years to day will be 10 ore 12.

First you claim the price is not known for the Rafale deal and that includes everything but what makes you an expert to say what the said 30 billion for PAKFA deal includes? Piss off, ass wipe

 

[BON PLAN]

Ooops my bad, its worse, it was a German F-4, must be humiliating

Ah yes. A german F4 shoot down a Rafale during parkink trial...

 

[BON PLAN]

And what makes you an expert to say the Tejas can't match Gripen by the way? Again piss off.

Just see the two flying.
One is well designed, with nice curves. It is operational until dozen years.
The other is harsh. A new version coming every 2 years (with Kaveri, with F4004, with F414, with EJ200 ?). See it flyind in middle east : not impressiv.

 

[Immanuel]

Just see the two flying.
One is well designed, with nice curves. It is operational until dozen years.
The other is harsh. A new version coming every 2 years (with Kaveri, with F4004, with F414, with EJ200 ?). See it flyind in middle east : not impressiv.

Its ok darling, Gripen has no chance in India, it doesn't stand a chance against the LCA MK-1 armed with I-Derby-ER, Python-5. The LCA's performance in Bahrain was one of the best.

 

[Immanuel]

Angry and without argument you are. It's why you used insults. Insults are the answer of weak people.

Angry?? I am having fun here, don't take it too emotionally

 

[Immanuel]

Ah yes. A german F4 shoot down a Rafale during parkink trial...

Fighters jets actually spend most of their time in the parking lot, if the Rafale can't dominate the parking lot, how will it dominate the skies????

 

[Tactical Frog]

Few thoughts : lot of deja vu with Parikar ' s statements regarding Rafale. He is very good at playing bad cop next I expect Air Marshall Arup Raha saying " we need MMRCA type fast ! "
Time plays against the IAF , not against Dassault. It is India' s air strength that is dwindling, while Pakistan gets stronger.
PM Modi has committed some personal credibility into this deal. At a point , it is his call.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

@Immanuel - stick to topic and don't troll.

If you continue with your current language, you will be banned from this thread.

Relax everyone!

 

[smestarz]

Just see the two flying.
One is well designed, with nice curves. It is operational until dozen years.
The other is harsh. A new version coming every 2 years (with Kaveri, with F4004, with F414, with EJ200 ?). See it flyind in middle east : not impressiv.

Only to the French its not impressive, because they do see the Rafale deal to india FAILING, They did try hard using the various ways to kill Tejas, but unfortunately for the French, it persisted and stayed.

Now was the engine part. India ambitiously wanted to go for a total Indian plane with Indian design, avionics and engine, and it was badly assumed that all will be ready and the project would be on time, Unfortunately the thrust to weight Ratio was not good for IAF who insisted that they cannot take Tejas with this sort of engine ratio. So there was a delay thanks to IAF not being pro-active. Since there was little hope in developing Kaveri to the potential it had and losing more time. HAL went for the GE-F404 engine, which is well deigned has a good thrust to weight ratio and its perfect for Tejas, but after implementing it and being good, IAF again came with changed ASQR saying that they need more thrust, and so then HAL cme with best available option as of now F414 which was good enough for Indian Navy and IAF but then again IAF wants the engine to be more powerful and hence in the rumours came EJ-230. India wants to export Tejas also with there being a big need for a Capable single engine plane that is good as Light MRCA and does not cost an arm and leg to buy, easy to maintain and the country can put missiles of their choice without any restrictions. The Indians being new want to learn and hence willing to integrate any missile which the customer wants.
Also considering that this is sporting an American Engine F414 there are chances that America might veto the sames to some countries and hence having Eurojet EJ-230 has some advantage of NOT BEING AMERICAN

In Baharain it was a success and some countries already shown interest. Remember one thing, Rafale did not have countries showing interest when it flew out of the country. Rather even now France has tund the purchase for the sale, means France is actually paying the customer to buy the Rafale. This might be a taste of sour grapes for France and Rafale and already you are showing the symtoms of the same

 

[smestarz]

Few thoughts : lot of deja vu with Parikar ' s statements regarding Rafale. He is very good at playing bad cop next I expect Air Marshall Arup Raha saying " we need MMRCA type fast ! "
Time plays against the IAF , not against Dassault. It is India' s air strength that is dwindling, while Pakistan gets stronger.
PM Modi has committed some personal credibility into this deal. At a point , it is his call.

Let us analyse all the statements.
ACM Raha said many things, he did say We need MMRCA type, and he was specific to say that, he did not say Rafale, correct? A year back he was naming "Rafale" and now it becomes "MMRCA type" He will be saying MMRCA type sometimes and then he will just get over it

Parrikar has been on record many times, to say
a) MiG-21 will be replaced by Tejas
b) Rafale will not be replacing MiG-21
c) Rafales deal is difficult because the price difference is few thousand crores (that is few billion dollars)
He is the Minister of Defence, and he said he will not sign the deal with such a price difference.

Now we come to Modi, Modi did say that we want 36 planes and it should be G2G, the reason he said was he needed closure on MMRCA discussion since it was too complicated and difficult to quantity many things. So whoever signs the deal was bound to have political exile for the next decade or so. So he tried to get favourable deal with Hollande with 36 planes in fly off conditions and at price at same as French air force, unfortunately now Modi realises that French have been lying about the price all the time. He cannot call French liars and so this is a nice way. Earlier MoU was signed for 36 planes, and most condtiions were agreed were on IGA, but as now the GoI realises that the French tried to take them for a ride, so they cannot sign the deal at the prices, so technically the "deal" still hangs. Honestly your Ambassador in India is more smart than rest of the french lot, he is sure that if the deal is not signed within april, it will never will be.

With the air show in Bahrain, MoD is fully confident of Tejas and will induct it in IAF, and unfortunately for the IAF the GoI is now telling them WHO IS THE BOSS. The IAF top brass does not own the IAF and their whims are fancies are tertiary, Primary is defence of India and secondary is getting Indian made wares.

The way Defence minister set about improving the Availability rate of Su30 MKI after taking over the role shows how important Su-30 MKI is to India and not as french believe.
India has 242 Su-30 MKI as of now and these can safely put the entire PAF on the ground on day 1 of conflict.

China as of now would not be willing to get into war with India, but with all the Su-30 MKI and the MiG-29 SMT and MiG-29K we can safely take over the threat of China and Pakistan at the same time.

 

[BON PLAN]

Its ok darling, Gripen has no chance in India, it doesn't stand a chance against the LCA MK-1 armed with I-Derby-ER, Python-5. The LCA's performance in Bahrain was one of the best.

Darling? Hummmm.....
Gripen will have Meteor. has already AMRAAM, IRIS. 1° class armament.
Have you seen the Tejas Show on video? Sorry, but not impressiv.