Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

Like Mirage 2000, maybe. Tomorrow.
Like Rafale, never. It's like to compare F16 and F15 (but in my case, a F15 with FBW)

It has already surpassed Mirage 2000 and its more close to Rafale in terms of some ablilites, but as I said, it cannot Rafale on even scale in some roles as Rafale has long range, and two engines, And rafale cannot compete with Su-30 MKI as Su-30 MKI has higher internal fuel than Rafale that it can complete misssions on internal fuel alone for which Rafale will defintely need external tanks and that corresponds to reduced War load

 

[smestarz]

Meteor is induced this year on Gripen. So Meteor is operationnal in some month. Who speak here about Rafale?
Meteor out range actual K77 by a large margin. (Meteor : officially more than 100km (and unofficially near 150km) K77 : 80 km)
K77 is an ARRAAM like. not a Meteor like.
Stoto K77 is on the drawing board.
It's not because I say "my Toyoya Lexus is able to reach 250km/h that it's true". Too easy before engineering to promise extraordinary perf....

Meteor is introduced on Gripen, .. ok, How many rounds do AdlA have of Meteor as of now? ZERO
India already has R-77 operational on its Su-30 MKI and MiG-29. In a way Meteor on Rafale and R-77 on Tejas are in same stage. It is the official or proven info that counts R-77 range officially is 105 kms. you try to read more about R-77. K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

 

[smestarz]

Explain why? Rafale is able to face russian planes, so chineese.... easyer.

Rafale is unable to even match Su-30 earlier versions. Su-30 MKI outclasses Rafale in every way... EVERY WAY. Weapons, Range, capability etc. so, Rafale vs Chinese AF Russian planes, Its an easy victory for the Chinese planes. Funnily the IAF top brass candidly admitted that Rafale will be used ONLY AGAINST PAF... that does in a way tell you what IAF truly thinks of the ability of Rafale vs Russian Su-30 planes.

 

[BON PLAN]

In modern era each plane has some edge over the other, and its upto the pilots to realise it and then use to their advantage. And that is where Tactics are very important. ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ADVANTAGE TEJAS HAS OVER RAFALE IS PRICE. Considering that Rafale say costs abt US$ 200 million + per plane, we can at same time buy 5 Tejas, Numbers is also an attribute. Bigger nose means bigger radar and hence longer detection does it not? One of the big advantage Rafale has is twin engines, longer range and higher top speed. . But Tejas can have a longer ranged radar and also HAS LONGER RANGED MISSILE. Its simple logic.. Give it some time and you will notice that IAF realises that MMRCA was a bad atter thought

NO, NO et NO.
Price of Rafale is 80/85 million. It's the price French air force pay for each rafale at the end of Dassault plant.. This is the price you must use to compare with others.
BUT this price doesn't include support, spares, weapons, offset (50% !!!)

And Tejas as being not inducted, nobody knows how cost support.... Reliability of this product is far from being proved.

Size of the nose? could you give us some datas? Until 10 years, Rafale will have conformal radars in the nose and in the sides....
Rafale has an AESA radar until 3/4 years. Operational every day. With 15 years of feed back with PESA software.

Longer range missile? against MICA yes. Agains METEOR no. Absolutely no. K77 and ASTRA are AMRAAM like competitor, but far from Meteor.

If you said yourself such false news, at the end you certainly think it's the truth. But it's already arrived I think.

 

[BON PLAN]

You mean to say all Rafales in service are carrying AESA?

NO.
But all the 60 Rafale from last batch (N° 4), felivery beginning from 2013, are equiped with directly from factory.

All the others can received this antenna.
And because PESA antenna, apart from less range and less conter mesures capacity, are less reliable, sure in the near future all the french fleet will be equipped in retrofit.

 

[BON PLAN]

It has already surpassed Mirage 2000 and its more close to Rafale in terms of some ablilites, but as I said, it cannot Rafale on even scale in some roles as Rafale has long range, and two engines, And rafale cannot compete with Su-30 MKI as Su-30 MKI has higher internal fuel than Rafale that it can complete misssions on internal fuel alone for which Rafale will defintely need external tanks and that corresponds to reduced War load

Max speed of Tejas?
Max take off capacity of Tejas?
Range of Tejas? (in AtoA and AtoG role).
Climb speed of Tejas?
AoA of Tejas?
Sustained G of Tejas?

I'm afraid REAL datas are cruel.

You speak about a plane not in production, evolving every 2 years, without a qualified weapons system....

At the end I'm sure Tejas will be a nice light plane, but it will remain a light plane, with short legs and limited weapons capacity.
It's the first independant (but not really, see engine and radar) try of India. No one among the main fighters producers can make a good light plane better than a good medium plane. And India lack of skill to do what all the others, with 60 years of experience, can't do. It's a simple as that.

 

[BON PLAN]

Meteor is introduced on Gripen, .. ok, How many rounds do AdlA have of Meteor as of now? ZERO
India already has R-77 operational on its Su-30 MKI and MiG-29. In a way Meteor on Rafale and R-77 on Tejas are in same stage. It is the official or proven info that counts R-77 range officially is 105 kms. you try to read more about R-77. K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

We are not speaking of ADlA but of Meteor.
Meteor is induced this year (on Gripen). It will be until 2018 on Rafale. Why only in 2018? because ADlA doesn't think it's a crucial capacity. But we need to have it in case of, and to maintain our rank among others air force (and for marketing reasons also, to sell Rafale).
ADlA emphasize on AtoG weapons (they boost Hammer missile instead of Meteor integration). And see all last war (small intensity war) : no AtoA missile fired. AtoG.... A LOT ! ADlA made what's seems to be a good choice.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is the official or proven info that counts R-77 range officially is 105 kms

Give me proof. And not a russian Wikipédia link please....

 

[BON PLAN]

K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

K77M ? an engineer dream to day. Not formaly lauched !
You think France or US can't match? France may be (but we don't speak of France, but of Europe in this area. MBDA is a european compagnie). US do that until.... 30 or 40 years my dear.

See below :

The AIM-54 Phoenix is a radar-guided, long-range air-to-air missile (AAM), carried in clusters of up to six missiles on the F14 tomcat, its only launch platform. The Phoenix was the United States' only long-range air-to-air missile. The combination of Phoenix missile and the new guidance radar was the first aerial weapons system that could simultaneously engage multiple targets.
Characteristics

A technical drawing of AIM-54C
The following is a list of AIM-54 Phoenix specifications:

• Primary function: long-range, air-launched, air-intercept missile
• Unit cost: about $477,000, but this varied greatly
• Power plant: solid propellant rocket motor
• Length: 13 ft (4.0 m)
• Weight: 1,000–1,040 pounds (450–470 kg)
• Diameter: 15 in (380 mm)
• Wing span: 3 ft (910 mm)
• Range: over 100 nautical miles (120 mi; 190 km) (actual range is classified)
• Speed: 3,000+ mph (4,680+ km/h)
• Guidance system: semi-active and active radar homing
• Warheads: high explosive
• Warhead weight: 135 pounds (61 kg)
• Users: US , Iran
• Date deployed: 1974
• Date retired (U.S.): September 30, 2004

 

[smestarz]

Give me proof. And not a russian Wikipédia link please....

Lol, since you did ask for proof of R-77 here
http://www.deagel.com/Air-to-Air-Missiles/RVV-SD_a001032004.aspx
http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/
Two links and both are not wikipedia, and mind it R-77 is medium range missile as per Russian standards where as Meteor which has similar range is touted by French as LONG RANGE.
There are other missiles like R-37 (AA-13 arrow) and Novator which boith have range twice as that of Meteor and further there is K-77M in the pipleline

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Chalo good news

Now even media who doesn't understand much is questioning the rafale deal on costs

Will get difficult for modi to sign it even if he can force Patrkkar to go along

 

[smestarz]

K77M ? an engineer dream to day. Not formaly lauched !
You think France or US can't match? France may be (but we don't speak of France, but of Europe in this area. MBDA is a european compagnie). US do that until.... 30 or 40 years my dear.

See below :

The AIM-54 Phoenix is a radar-guided, long-range air-to-air missile (AAM), carried in clusters of up to six missiles on the F14 tomcat, its only launch platform. The Phoenix was the United States' only long-range air-to-air missile. The combination of Phoenix missile and the new guidance radar was the first aerial weapons system that could simultaneously engage multiple targets.
Characteristics

A technical drawing of AIM-54C
The following is a list of AIM-54 Phoenix specifications:

• Primary function: long-range, air-launched, air-intercept missile
• Unit cost: about $477,000, but this varied greatly
• Power plant: solid propellant rocket motor
• Length: 13 ft (4.0 m)
• Weight: 1,000–1,040 pounds (450–470 kg)
• Diameter: 15 in (380 mm)
• Wing span: 3 ft (910 mm)
• Range: over 100 nautical miles (120 mi; 190 km) (actual range is classified)
• Speed: 3,000+ mph (4,680+ km/h)
• Guidance system: semi-active and active radar homing
• Warheads: high explosive
• Warhead weight: 135 pounds (61 kg)
• Users: US , Iran
• Date deployed: 1974
• Date retired (U.S.): September 30, 2004

What you did fail to notice is also DATE RETIRED.... 2004, and is there any missile used by USA or other Nato forces after it was retired? AIM-54 was retired and replaced by AMRAAM and AMRAAM does not have that range. By the way AIM-54 was F-14 TOMCAT SPECIFIC WEAPON ONLY, USA did not use it operationally on any other plane. And in contrast and as I pointed out R-77 is operational on many planes and that too in IAF

 

[smestarz]

NO, NO et NO.
Price of Rafale is 80/85 million. It's the price French air force pay for each rafale at the end of Dassault plant.. This is the price you must use to compare with others.
BUT this price doesn't include support, spares, weapons, offset (50% !!!)

And Tejas as being not inducted, nobody knows how cost support.... Reliability of this product is far from being proved.

Size of the nose? could you give us some datas? Until 10 years, Rafale will have conformal radars in the nose and in the sides....
Rafale has an AESA radar until 3/4 years. Operational every day. With 15 years of feed back with PESA software.

Longer range missile? against MICA yes. Agains METEOR no. Absolutely no. K77 and ASTRA are AMRAAM like competitor, but far from Meteor.

If you said yourself such false news, at the end you certainly think it's the truth. But it's already arrived I think.

If Rafale was so cheap as you said GOI would have signed it, unfortunately as the Defence minister said the difference in prices are "... few billon dollars.." and that too just for the 36 planes. So... Rafales are not apparently that cheap. BTW not all operational RAFALE have AESA many still fly with the older PESA Radars.. you can get the record straight..ASTRA is in class of MICA, unfortunately R-77 does outclass MICA and Meteor, And by the way the total French air force is going to buy just 100 missiles... so that would be termed as capability? You notice that its actually less than 1 missile per Rafale ?

 

[smestarz]

We are not speaking of ADlA but of Meteor.
Meteor is induced this year (on Gripen). It will be until 2018 on Rafale. Why only in 2018? because ADlA doesn't think it's a crucial capacity. But we need to have it in case of, and to maintain our rank among others air force (and for marketing reasons also, to sell Rafale).
ADlA emphasize on AtoG weapons (they boost Hammer missile instead of Meteor integration). And see all last war (small intensity war) : no AtoA missile fired. AtoG.... A LOT ! ADlA made what's seems to be a good choice.

We are talking of Meteor yes, but the the point is that you are offering Meteor as a capability which in a way you are not really trusting (buying just 100 rounds)
As you rightly said Rafale can be good in small intensity wars with countries such as Libya which do not have credible air defence, but when it comes to countries like Pakistan which has more professional air force and with better weapons, its different ball game altogether.
We already have better air launched cruise missiles in works like Brahmos and Prahar, The point i am trying to again make is, buying Rafale is waste of tax payers money on plane which is inferior to what we use now (su-30MKI) and the French plane will not come with Qualfications of the various weapons we already use, but we have to pay extra for the qualifications (and which french dont want to do) but insist on india to buy expensive weapons package... I think i did try to explain clearly... as compared to Su-30 MKI, Rafale is just cannon fodder.
Please sell it to PAF we would love to shoot them down.

 

[smestarz]

NO.
But all the 60 Rafale from last batch (N° 4), felivery beginning from 2013, are equiped with directly from factory.

All the others can received this antenna.
And because PESA antenna, apart from less range and less conter mesures capacity, are less reliable, sure in the near future all the french fleet will be equipped in retrofit.

So, I was right, not all the Rafale operational have AESA . just few of those, .. Thank you.

 

[smestarz]

Chalo good news

Now even media who doesn't understand much is questioning the rafale deal on costs

Will get difficult for modi to sign it even if he can force Patrkkar to go along

Modi created the "dharm sankat" for Parrikar, but then Parrikar is smart enough to show that the prices are way too high, The French promised lower than MMRCA but these seem to be more expensive, so based on this figure say 12 Bn for 36 planes and that too without tech transfer or Lines would reach US$ 42 Bn and adding tech transfer and Lines that would be close to 50 bn (this is just speculation) so the Rafale would have outshot the RFP by 400%

 

[gadeshi]

K77 with more leg than Meteor? BS. What are your source? You can't compare a classical missile and a stato one.... the stato K77 is on the drawing board. Meteor is induce this year.

@BON PLAN, you are just an ignorant fool.
K-77-1 (Item-177) has 110 km range without ramjet engine. Meteor is about 100km with a ramjet. Ramjet is more effective on active part of trajectory when engine is on, but engine is on in 1/10 of the range, the rest trajectory is inertial with engine off. In this case ramjet intakes just create a parasite drag without useful output which reduces range and decrease maneurability because their drag eats inertial energy on turns.
This is because K-77PD (180km with ramjet) is not aimed to shoot down fighters (at least with one piece).
So EU engineers have just failed to make an effective missile. One time again after SkyFlash and Aspide fails.

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[gadeshi]

Technically France has not inducted Meteor so why are you talking about it as a capability? YOU DO NOT HAVE IT?
R-77 already outranges Meteor and AMRAAM and the best part is WE ALREADY HAVE IT, MiG-29, Su-30 MKI use these missiles and they will be qualified for Tejas too
K-77M should be available in few years and my estimate is that by the time France has purchased its 100 rounds of Meteor we shall be having maybe few rounds of K-77M (qualified for Su-30 MKI and MiG-29 and later for Tejas.
K-77M has almost twice the range of Meteor or AMRAAM

Have a read here
http://thediplomat.com/2013/12/new-russian-air-to-air-missiles-will-field-almost-perfect-accuracy/

K-77M at present info has an estimated range of upto 200 kms. by the way what is the range of Meteor or AMRAAM?

One is bad - you have K-77E (RVV-AE) with 80km range.
But there are rumors about Modi's insistings on K-77E-1 (100 km) if IAF will accept MiG-29UPG and Super Sukhoi projects.

And there are no K-77M exists. There are K-77-1 (Item 177) is modern version of K-77 (R-77).

There is another one missile from this family - Item 180. It is for PAK FA internal MWBs. It will be 150km without ramjet and 220km with it.
But it is under the trials now (from 2013).
We expect it ready in 2017.
I'm not sure if it will be in FGFA package, but its export version will be for sure.

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[gadeshi]

AESA delivered on all Rafale until 2013.

With US made GaAs TRMs instead of Thales failed indigenous ones

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[gadeshi]

Give me proof. And not a russian Wikipédia link please....

So go to http:/ktrv.com - all the missiles are there.

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