Know Your 'Rafale'

[gadeshi]

Have a look at https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/p10-13_criticalmaterial_final.pdf
You don' t expect met to dismantle a RBE2 like it was an iPod, do you

So where are the proofs?
There are just declarative statements from EC on financing critical materials for a years to come. But not a word about they are successful
There are only failures in fact for now because $750 a piece in 1000pcs batches is a hell of a fuckup.
That's why friench weapons are so expensive while their capabilities are very modest at the time.

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[BON PLAN]

It is all about export version which is traditionally 25% worse than internal used one. If KTRV says it is true, then it is so.
If Meteor has so brilliant (actually has inferior for the ramjet one) data, why MBDA hides the data? It will be a great advertisement
And compare the prices - $400K for R-77E-1 and $2.5M for Meteor with sucking flight package

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For marketing reason, you always give the best datas available before selling something, even if you are a russian compagny. So I don't accept your argument about these 25% ...
What is inferior in the Meteor Ramjet?
The range officially given is "more than 100km". It's enough to give some idea. The real customer (european country, Qatar, some prospects) have more precise information.
Price? Ask Indians pilot what they think of Russian short range air to air missile during wars against Pak AF .... Cheap but not soo efficient !

 

[Tactical Frog]

So where are the proofs?
There are just declarative statements from EC on financing critical materials for a years to come. But not a word about they are successful
There are only failures in fact for now because $750 a piece in 1000pcs batches is a hell of a fuckup.
That's why friench weapons are so expensive while their capabilities are very modest at the time.

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French

So where are the proofs?
There are just declarative statements from EC on financing critical materials for a years to come. But not a word about they are successful
There are only failures in fact for now because $750 a piece in 1000pcs batches is a hell of a fuckup.
That's why friench weapons are so expensive while their capabilities are very modest at the time.

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All I am saying is that the Rafale is not dependent upon American chips or electronic components .. United Monolithic Semiconductors makes all we need to remain independent from US sources. They have a website too : http://www.ums-gaas.com/accueil.php
Feel free to say that all of this is corporate communication.

 

[gadeshi]

For marketing reason, you always give the best datas available before selling something, even if you are a russian compagny. So I don't accept your argument about these 25% ...
What is inferior in the Meteor Ramjet?
The range officially given is "more than 100km". It's enough to give some idea. The real customer (european country, Qatar, some prospects) have more precise information.
Price? Ask Indians pilot what they think of Russian short range air to air missile during wars against Pak AF .... Cheap but not soo efficient !

Why are you western guys are so ignorant???
Decreasing export versions data by some 25% from internal ones is long time tradition since USSR.
This is because USSR and Russia don't do weapons as merchandise or commodity. They do reliable and performant weapons for real war, not for defence market. So, it KTRV say that export R-77E-1 (RVV-SD) flies to 110km (not "about" or "more than" or "probably" or so) then it is so with no dought. Russians don't play secrecy about their export weapons. Western weapons makers put maximal physical values that cannot be achieved in real life (it is in the best case). But most of all cases it's just advertisement that doesn't have any real confirmation (see AIM-120C7 range about 130km... but while launch from 25km with a carrier speed of 2750km/h)

 

[gadeshi]

French
All I am saying is that the Rafale is not dependent upon American chips or electronic components .. United Monolithic Semiconductors makes all we need to remain independent from US sources. They have a website too : http://www.ums-gaas.com/accueil.php
Feel free to say that all of this is corporate communication.

GaAs RF devices with a frequencies up to 100GHz??? WTF???
Why to use GaAs on such a miserably slow frequencies while Russians and Americans use them on 10 (GaAs) to 100 (GaN) times greater frequencies???

 

[sasum]

Parrikar’s Quest for Affordable Air power
Published February 22, 2016
SOURCE: VISHAL KARPE / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Quest for Affordable Air power has led to two major developments for Indian Air Force lately. Sukhoi has agreed to cap joint development cost of FGFA 5th generation fighter jet at $ 4 Billion each which means the Earlier price of $ 12 Billion demanded by Russia due to price inflation has successfully been reduced after hectic negotiations with visiting Sukhoi officials.

Parrikar was also instrumental in forcing Dassault to agree to sell Rafale Fighter jets at 2011 price submitted to India and refused to budge demands made by French negotiators who were adamant to sell Rafale fighter jets after adding current price inflation. Parrikar and his team were also successful in tackling many bluffs made by French team to force India to agree on a higher price.

Dassault also has agreed to allow Indian weapons integration into Rafale fighter jets including indigenously developed Astra BVRAAM and also share some of its technology so that it can be incorporated in India’s LCA MK-II and AMCA fighter jet project.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar by limiting Rafale fighter jets to just 36 has also saved India from going bankrupt in Indian air force quest to acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets for its fleet. Parrikar clearly seems to have understood the real needs of the air force instead of airforce dictating what it wants to defend India from regional rivals.

Parrikar also made Air force to agree to procure upgraded LCA Tejas fighter jet proposed by HAL with new AESA radar and modern avionics and let scientist mature MK-II variant and also start work on AMCA. India is also open to procure another affordable fighter jet which will be made in India by Private defence sector which will fill up slots vacated by retiring Mig-21 and Mig-27 in Indian Airforce.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar truly has turned fortunes for Indian Air force while bringing affordable at the table for India in maintaining a modern yet affordable air force keeping its traditional supremacy of its Military in the region rather than bankrupting India’s Economy inexpensive military procurement.

 

[BON PLAN]

Proof?
2 years ago this factory has reported a "success" of reducing one peace price from $1100 to $750 in 1000 peace batches which is fucking much while econimically sane is under $100 in a 1000 peace batches
Americans have 85 in 1000 peace batch, Russians have $75 in the same batches.
That's why all the western radars use NG-made TRMs which USA sells for $100 in a 1000 pieces batch. Even Israelis.

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All you say is not about a US furniture or TRM to europe customer, it is about price. Don't mix the twe.

SO TO END THIS NO DEBATE : EUROPEAN AESA RADAR ARE MADE WITH EUROPEAN TRM.

 

[gadeshi]

All you say is not about a US furniture or TRM to europe customer, it is aabout price. Don't mix the twe.
SO TO END THIS NO DEBATE : EUROPEAN AESA RADAR ARE MADE WITH EUROPEAN TRM.

Uppercase doesn't make you right
Actually, we (Russians) believe that the only who writes uppercase are stupid blonds which nail stucked in the keyboard (and which believe that uppercase makes it more expressive : ) ) and 1C Accountant APP developers

 

[BON PLAN]

And what about R-37 (Item 610):
It is heavy long range missile for AWACS, tankers, transports and heavy jammers shut up as well as for knocking down cruise missiles.
It had never been designed to shoot down fighters.
Nevertheless, its range is about 400km.

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Post that specially to Smestarz.

 

[BON PLAN]

Uppercase doesn't make you right
Actually, we (Russians) believe that the only who writes uppercase are stupid blonds which nail stucked in the keyboard (and which believe that uppercase makes it more expressive : ) ) and 1C Accountant APP developers

You think all you want. Just don't answer to a question of producing source with a problem of money.

And I note the debate is CLOSED (I'm not blond)

 

[smestarz]

Post that specially to Smestarz.

I know what is R-37, Since we were talking of long range missiles and you were giving Crap about how MBDA is understating the range of Meteor and that the Range of the Meteor is by some experts of MBDA about 50% more than 100 kms (that makes it 150 kms) .
Further we were talking about Missiles that were used by India (R-77 and K-77M in future) and by France (MICA now and Meteor in future) And during that discussion you did bring in AIM-54C which was used only on F-14 Tomcat and your own posting said that its retired long way back, So why did you have to post it? Since then you were apparently going on a different track. I did just add the point that AA-13 and Novator have longer ranges than even AIM-54C. Now it seems to be the French way to poke the noses into something and when proven wrong they start to blame others. The conversation is there to see, go and check yourself.

 

[smestarz]

Parrikar’s Quest for Affordable Air power
Published February 22, 2016
SOURCE: VISHAL KARPE / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

India’s Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Quest for Affordable Air power has led to two major developments for Indian Air Force lately. Sukhoi has agreed to cap joint development cost of FGFA 5th generation fighter jet at $ 4 Billion each which means the Earlier price of $ 12 Billion demanded by Russia due to price inflation has successfully been reduced after hectic negotiations with visiting Sukhoi officials.

Parrikar was also instrumental in forcing Dassault to agree to sell Rafale Fighter jets at 2011 price submitted to India and refused to budge demands made by French negotiators who were adamant to sell Rafale fighter jets after adding current price inflation. Parrikar and his team were also successful in tackling many bluffs made by French team to force India to agree on a higher price.

Dassault also has agreed to allow Indian weapons integration into Rafale fighter jets including indigenously developed Astra BVRAAM and also share some of its technology so that it can be incorporated in India’s LCA MK-II and AMCA fighter jet project.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar by limiting Rafale fighter jets to just 36 has also saved India from going bankrupt in Indian air force quest to acquire 126 Rafale fighter jets for its fleet. Parrikar clearly seems to have understood the real needs of the air force instead of airforce dictating what it wants to defend India from regional rivals.

Parrikar also made Air force to agree to procure upgraded LCA Tejas fighter jet proposed by HAL with new AESA radar and modern avionics and let scientist mature MK-II variant and also start work on AMCA. India is also open to procure another affordable fighter jet which will be made in India by Private defence sector which will fill up slots vacated by retiring Mig-21 and Mig-27 in Indian Airforce.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar truly has turned fortunes for Indian Air force while bringing affordable at the table for India in maintaining a modern yet affordable air force keeping its traditional supremacy of its Military in the region rather than bankrupting India’s Economy inexpensive military procurement.

Now since the cat is out of the bag and price of Rafale are now clear, everyone is asking for the rafale deal to be scrapped
Few more facts Dassault asking for rs 90000 crore and GoI insisting on almost 30% less than this price, the chances of this deal happening is ZERO
The MoD has also put a time frame for this that the deal if any has to happen in THIS FINANCIAL YEAR which means by 31st March 2016
@PaliwalWarrior start the timer again till 31st March 2016

 

[sasum]

Now since the cat is out of the bag and price of Rafale are now clear, everyone is asking for the rafale deal to be scrapped
Few more facts Dassault asking for rs 90000 crore and GoI insisting on almost 30% less than this price, the chances of this deal happening is ZERO
The MoD has also put a time frame for this that the deal if any has to happen in THIS FINANCIAL YEAR which means by 31st March 2016
@PaliwalWarrior start the timer again till 31st March 2016

Let this proposal die a natural death. Dassault had declined to transfer their AESA radar tech. citing immaturity of Indian Defence industry to absorb it. About pricing, they are playing hard ball knowing well IAF is backing them to the hilt...and after all this they will not complete delivery before 2022 i.e,..after meeting their domestic demand. Shit..we are not beggars.

 

[sorcerer]

Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets' Price
NEW DELHI: Under pressure to conclude the much-hyped Rafale warplanes deal with France, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have fired a warning shot to the French negotiators to reduce the price by 30 per cent if they want to ink the deal in this financial year.
An MoD official said India wants to pay `65-68,000 crore (8 billion euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets fitted high-end weapons and radars systems, while Dassault-which manufactures the aircraft-has quoted `90,000 crore (12 billion euros).
“Though the French have come down marginally on their previous stand, we have categorically told them to come down to nearly 30 per cent if they want to clinch the deal in the current financial year,” an MoD official told Express. IAF is expected to get the aircraft three years after signing the contract.
In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande visit to New Delhi as chief guest for the during Republic Day. In a joint statement on January 25, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in “a couple of days”. Dassault Aviation had also said it expected a complete agreement on the planes in four weeks.
Dassault negotiators are believed to have committed setting up a production line in India, but MoD officials are sticking to serious cost bargaining. Moreover, France has also apparently agreed to 30 per cent offsets in the Rafale deal, which means French companies such as Dassault will have to plough 30 per cent of the contract value back into India as offsets. From the beginning, MoD was eyeing at least 20 per cent less per aircraft compared to what was offered in the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal during UPA-II.
The 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond visual range missiles and defensive weapon systems. During his France visit, the Prime Minister had announced the decision to buy 36 Rafale jets, citing operational necessity of IAF, which is down to 34 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42.
Source>>

 

[smestarz]

Let this proposal die a natural death. Dassault had declined to transfer their AESA radar tech. citing immaturity of Indian Defence industry to absorb it. About pricing, they are playing hard ball knowing well IAF is backing them to the hilt...and after all this they will not complete delivery before 2022 i.e,..after meeting their domestic demand. Shit..we are not beggars.

For this deal there was no ToT in the cost, it was just to be the 36 planes in fly off conditions, weapons, spares, training and equipment for 2 bases. Now the Radar is from Thales, which is not part of Dassault Aviation. So for ToT of radar we would have to talk to Thales, The French have also in past tried to push us calling India as inferior, Even they are implying that Tejas is knock off of Mirage 2000. Incidentally Mirage III is knock of the American Convair F-102 Delta Dagger. Congress govts in the past have always potrayed India as a weak country and that is why other countries were eager to take benefit, Even for the Mirage 2000 upgrade, it cost more than a new Su-30 MKI. And Su-30 MKI outclasses even Rafale which the French say handles workload of 3 Mirage 2000. Aerospace industry is a buyers market and not sellers market. Congress govt and corrupt IAF top brass like NAK Browne have in past tried to push for Rafale deal by having press conference at critical times during price discussions which makes one wonder whose interest is the IAF chief looking at? And by the way, he is the same joker who wanted to scrap Tejas and insisted that Rafale deal is just US$ 10 billion for 126 planes. Now the people know what the true cost of the planes is when the Def minister informs it officially. There is no more speculation on price of the deal.

Also the projects which IAF were dismissing as being useless (Tejas and PAKFA/FGFA) are coming to reality and their true potential is being revealed. IAF which was earlier pushing the govt to get what it wants is now being told by the govt that they are professionals and they should justify the need for their needs and whims will not be considered. Let us now hear our ACM talk about "need for Rafale" I am sure the people of the country are going to ask him to first take steps to first secure the air bases where the planes are and learn to take care what they have rather than stupidly chasing something that we dont really need.

 

[BON PLAN]

QUOTE="smestarz, post: 1137794, member: 12163"]Further we were talking about Missiles that were used by India (R-77 and K-77M in future) and by France (MICA now and Meteor in future) And during that discussion you did bring in AIM-54C which was used only on F-14 Tomcat and your own posting said that its retired long way back, So why did you have to post it?[/QUOTE]

 

[BON PLAN]

Further we were talking about Missiles that were used by India (R-77 and K-77M in future) and by France (MICA now and Meteor in future) And during that discussion you did bring in AIM-54C which was used only on F-14 Tomcat and your own posting said that its retired long way back, So why did you have to post it?

But my love, I only answered to you when you said France or USA cannot handle such a range K77M is intended to have....
Your post is below :

smestarz said: ↑
K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

To have a small head is one thing (Zika effect ?). To loose memory another.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale Slipstream: India not to Budge on Lowering Jets’ Price

Under pressure to conclude the much-hyped Rafale warplanes deal with France, Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have fired a warning shot to the French negotiators to reduce the price by 30 per cent if they want to ink the deal in this financial year.

An MoD official said India wants to pay `65-68,000 crore (8 billion euros) for 36 Rafale fighter jets fitted high-end weapons and radars systems, while Dassault-which manufactures the aircraft-has quoted `90,000 crore (12 billion euros).

Though the French have come down marginally on their previous stand, we have categorically told them to come down to nearly 30 per cent if they want to clinch the deal in the current financial year,” an MoD official told Express. IAF is expected to get the aircraft three years after signing the contract.

In the absence of a mutually agreed price, the deal could not be inked during French President Francois Hollande visit to New Delhi as chief guest for the during Republic Day. In a joint statement on January 25, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Hollande had hoped to sort out the financial aspects in “a couple of days”. Dassault Aviation had also said it expected a complete agreement on the planes in four weeks.

Dassault negotiators are believed to have committed setting up a production line in India, but MoD officials are sticking to serious cost bargaining. Moreover, France has also apparently agreed to 30 per cent offsets in the Rafale deal, which means French companies such as Dassault will have to plough 30 per cent of the contract value back into India as offsets. From the beginning, MoD was eyeing at least 20 per cent less per aircraft compared to what was offered in the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal during UPA-II.

The 36 nuclear-capable Rafale jets will come to India in fly-away condition with weapon systems such as active electronically scanned phased array radar, high-end beyond visual range missiles and defensive weapon systems. During his France visit, the Prime Minister had announced the decision to buy 36 Rafale jets, citing operational necessity of IAF, which is down to 34 fighter squadrons against authorised strength of 42.

http://idrw.org/rafale-slipstream-india-not-to-budge-on-lowering-jets-price/

not fresh news.
And it seems indians need 50% offset.
Just wait some weeks, it will be 75% !

 

[smestarz]

But my love, I only answered to you when you said France or USA cannot handle such a range K77M is intended to have....
Your post is below :

smestarz said: ↑
K-77M is a different baby altogether. Something that something France or USA cannot handle.

To have a small head is one thing (Zika effect ?). To loose memory another.

Unfortunately seems very prevalent in France this effect.

 

[smestarz]

not fresh news.
And it seems indians need 50% offset.
Just wait some weeks, it will be 75% !

Did you not read my post? Indians have given the final info to Dassault
The Offset are at 50% and this is already accepted.

The things Indians want and which seems non negotiatble is upto Rs 65000 crore for the package which is 30% less than what Dassault is quoting.

Also now GoI have given France/Dassault the time limit 31st March 2016 if France does not sign by then, then its bye bye Rafale. So now, its French turn to either accept or Reject.. We did give France a chance, but seems the french demands are exorbitant