Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Tejas : Combat radius: 500 km
MiG-27: Combat radius: 780 km

But then Tejas has aerial refueling capability and carries 20% more load than MiG-27, MiG-27 carries 4 tons, Tejas can carry 5 tons. Thus that is better useful load,

Also as I had mentioned in my earlier post, we have 3 planes that can fulfill the missions done by MiG-27. Those are Jaguar, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29. Also we have BAe Hawk which is known ground attack plane.
There is also the vaunted Su-30 MKI which will be an overkill, but the point is, that for MiG-27 roles we already have enough planes. Rafale does not bring something new.

When Tejas....

And When Tejas....

and....

The only one question : When the definite TEJAS will be iinduct ?

 

[Immanuel]

$ 10 billion for 124 planes : was it an estimation or an official cap ?
$ 8 billion for 36 planes with a good weapon load : very fair price for getting the best fighter-bomber in the world.
It is not about milking Inda. It is about France offering to a friendly country the very best of its engineering, some real gem crafted with love and against formidable resistance. It comes with. a price .. but the Rafale is unique and will prove it I am afraid in years to come.
You will learn to like the Rafale

No one cares, for the same price we can have double the MKI, hence double the firepower and don't be corny about the Rafale, its at best a good aircraft, to be the best fighter bomber, it still needs to beat the newest F-15SA which on any given day can deploy more ordance at a far lower price.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/this-is-a-fully-armed-f-15sa-the-most-advanced-product-1715732294

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

MICA demonstrate a real range of 67km in 1997 with a fire from a Taiwanese M2000 against a flying drone. And don't expect Taiwanese air force to give China the real max range of one of its weapon, so real max range of MICA is more than 67km. It was in 1997.... we can expect it has been ameliorated since (MBDA doesn't add to its products information about batch, as AMRAAM A, C5, D ....).
French force baught only 100 missile because :
1) They think such a range is quite useless, except against target like tanker, awacs, C17 like... It why next gen of MICA will not emphasize on range, but on speed. Why? Because in a real hard intensity war the sky will be too encombrate and with such electronic signals perturbations all around it would be impossible to fire at such a range without risk of friendly shoot.
2) When your main competitors has such missile (Meteor on EF and Gripen, New AMRAAM on american plane...) you must have something identical.

During Kargil, your M2000 wasn't "-5" one, ie without MICA, but Magic like and SUPER 530D. To carry bombs, you must put tanks under wings, so no SUPER 530D. Is as simple as that.

You lack of true information Guy. It's not first time I realized that.

Missiles ranges are just a joke

Especially when it is thrown around without other data like

Head on mode or tail chase mode
At what altitude
Etc

 

[Immanuel]

Hmm. So if I get it straight, you want the Rafale at a lower price than Pakistan new F16s. 699 million $ for 8 jets , with training , radar and other equipment. And you want offsets too, unlike Pakistan. I did not realize how hard it was to chit chat with Indians !

The cost of 8 Paki F-16s include, training, service, spares and other equipment while the fly away costs of the Rafale I mention is only the cost of the bird at €80 million, I don't assume add-ons. Stop being a lil bitch, your people at Dassault knew since day one exactly what they were getting into and now you're bitching when the going gets tough? Block 52's have a flyaway cost of around 55-60 million.

 

[BON PLAN]

When was the last.mig 21/crash in iaf ?

IN AUGUST 2015....

THE Indian EXPRESS
Mig-21 crash: No replacement for the ‘Flying coffin’ in near future
The Defence Ministry spokesperson said the fighter aircraft had taken off from Srinagar airfield on a routine training sortie; a court of inquiry has been ordered into the cause of the accident.

Written by Sushant Singh | Updated: August 24, 2015 7:08 pm
The wreckage of the Indian Air Force MiG-21 aircraft after it crashed and landed in the fields near village Soibugh of Budgam district, about 15 kilometres, southwest of Srinagar. (Source: AP)

A Mig-21 Bison aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed in the fields of Soibugh, Budgam district of Jammu and Kashmir this morning, with no loss of life reported in the accident. The pilot was able to eject from the aircraft and was rescued by an army helicopter.

The Defence Ministry spokesperson said the fighter aircraft had taken off from Srinagar airfield on a routine training sortie; a court of inquiry has been ordered into the cause of the accident.


Historically, Mig-21 fighters have had a poor track record when it comes to flight safety. Due to its poor safety record, the Russian-origin fighter aircraft has been given the tag, “Flying Coffin” in popular discourse. As per official records, more than 170 IAF pilots have been killed in MIG-21 accidents since 1970. Data collected by an aviation expert shows that at least six Mig-21 Bisons have been lost to accidents in the last five years.

An IAF official inspects near the wreckage of Mig-21 fighter jet that crashed in the Budgam district. (Source: AP)
IAF is the foremost user of MiG-21 today since its initial employment of the fighter aircraft in the 1965 Indo-Pak war. Mig-21 Bison is an upgraded version of the Mig-21 fighter which has helped the IAF prolong the life of its MiG-21 fleet. As of now, the IAF has six squadrons of the Bison.

The Mig-21s were to be replaced by the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by the HAL since the late 1990s. With the delay in development of the LCA, the IAF would have had to do away with the MiG-21s altogether if not for the Bison.

The IAF still plans to phase out all the variants of the Mig-21, now by 2022. The plan has been to replace the Mig-21 with the LCA and the

Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). With the continued delay in development of the LCA and the cancellation of the 126 Rafale MMRCA fighter deal—now the purchase of only 36 aircraft is on the cards — it is unlikely that this timeline can be adhered to.

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/ex...g-coffin-in-near-future/#sthash.skI3PfLr.dpuf

 

[BON PLAN]

Now the French are talking? A few years back when Rafale was selected the as L1 then Dassault did not deny saying anything about the nos of the price, rather they were confirming that the the price of 126 planes would come to US$ 10 billion, and then they came up with "rider" that the planes made by HAL would be expensive and so the price have to be raised. The point to note is that Dasault did not have any objection when the RFP was issued (they did sign the RFP accepting the terms set forth in the RFP) and after they were declared as L1 suddenly Dassault "realised" that HAL is not competent and the price have to be raise.

10 billion was the Official CAP.

Rafale might be good, but not worth the price because India has other options at far less price (read Su-30 MKI, Su-35, MiG-35, maybe even F/A-18 E/F..

Further for the "Medium" weight category, we have the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000, and for the Ground attack/Strike we have Jaguar, Mirage 2000, MiG-29, HAWK, also to be complimented by Tejas in few years We dont actually have a requirement for "Rafale type" plane nor in weight category nor in role.

Tejas getting the FOC this year will the final indication to France that we really do not need Rafale.

Even we dont really need PAKFA at this stage, but having them will give us the "first day of war" advantage of using a 5th Gen plane against these opponents, rather these planes might actually prove as a deterrent for China as they might have second thought of trying any mischief with india

PRICE IS ONE THING.

QUALITY vs PRICE IS ANOTHER.

YOU ARE TOO CONCENTRATE ON PRICE ONLY

 

[Tactical Frog]

Now the French are talking? A few years back when Rafale was selected the as L1 then Dassault did not deny saying anything about the nos of the price, rather they were confirming that the the price of 126 planes would come to US$ 10 billion, and then they came up with "rider" that the planes made by HAL would be expensive and so the price have to be raised. The point to note is that Dasault did not have any objection when the RFP was issued (they did sign the RFP accepting the terms set forth in the RFP) and after they were declared as L1 suddenly Dassault "realised" that HAL is not competent and the price have to be raise.

10 billion was the Official CAP.

I have been digging through old Livefist entries about the MMRCA and there is no mention of an official cap for the MMRCA tender. Figures just jumped higher and higher as rivers passed. Started with $ 10, 4 billion, then $ 12 billion, then jumped to $ 20 billion weeks before the final commercial bids from Eurofighter and Dassault were opened.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/01/eurofighter-lowest-bidder-in-indian.html

There were also in 2011 talks about a $ 10 billion deal for 60 Rafale with UAE. So I doubt that anyone in the Indian gov spheres was naive enough to expect getting 126 4.5 generation fighters for only $ 10 billion .

 

[BON PLAN]

Well it is ze french who bunged up their costing, the way the L-1 was determined was tainted to say the least, Dassault had tons of hidden costs in their bid, the truth became quite apparent over time, the real costs had risen by nearly 50%. Rafale was one of the two finalists and the prudent thing to do then would have been to evaluate both instead of focusing on the L-1. This was a grave mistake by the then MOD and UPA stooges.

You of all people shouldn't be saying much about HAL, HAL has its own challenges some of them stem directly from the ineffective MOD of the past years, IAF's fickle attitude towards anything domestic. LCA is a fantastic aircraft that since day 1 has incorporated everything the IAF has wanted over time, IAF has always changed its requirements often while having bastardly approach to the LCA, had they given a flying fuck since the start, they would have had a truly great aircraft by now.

HAL works well with-in the red tape that it's submerged in, if the other orgs. and ministries are efficient, they too can be brought quickly in line.

Dassault is run by pimps, liars and bigots and that is a fact. The MRCA RFP always stated HAL was the lead integrator, why then did Dassult do a U-turn when clearly since day one there was no option but to work with HAL. All of a sudden they were bitching about how HAL couldn't absord tech (biggest joke of that time), how the promised 100% TOT was dropped to less then 70%. Why did Dassult respond to the bid in the first place if working with HAL was such a risk, RFP was always clear on this. HAL by then was already making 90% of the MKI in India, which apart from AESA is just as advanced as the Rafale and in many cases would run circles around the Rafale any day.

No body knows the price but based on previous deals, its quite clear Rafale's costs per unit is well over €120 million and life cycle costs can easily be well over 220 million excluding one time costs of MLU which looking at the Mirage deal would be quite easily around 60 million per bird.

India doesn't need Rafale and its no pity, its a boon with over 9-10 billion saved which can be invested on the LCA/MKI and others, as for other customers for Rafale who gives a flying fuck.

DASSAULT always delivered on time, on spec, on cost.
When HAL will be able to match that you can speak about top management of DA. until this long maturity, close the hole under your nose.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

PRICE IS ONE THING.

QUALITY vs PRICE IS ANOTHER.

YOU ARE TOO CONCENTRATE ON PRICE ONLY

Same way

Best is one thing (want)

Acceptable (need) is another thing altogether

We need mmrca is one thing

Iaf wants rafale is another thing altogether

 

[BON PLAN]

DASSAULT always delivered on time, on spec, on cost.
When HAL will be able to match that you can speak. until this long maturity, close the hole under your nose.

The cost of 8 Paki F-16s include, training, service, spares and other equipment while the fly away costs of the Rafale I mention is only the cost of the bird at €80 million, I don't assume add-ons. Stop being a lil bitch, your people at Dassault knew since day one exactly what they were getting into and now you're bitching when the going gets tough? Block 52's have a flyaway cost of around 55-60 million.

Indeed, but it's a complement of existing fleet. A lot of things (test bench, tools, procedures...) are always there.

In case of a new fighter (ie Rafale for IAF), you have to bring all with the first batch. It has a cost.

 

[Immanuel]

DASSAULT always delivered on time, on spec, on cost.
When HAL will be able to match that you can speak about top management of DA. until this long maturity, close the hole under your nose.

Go foie grois yourself. Dassault is company full of pimps and lying bitches. Delivery has nothing to do with how the whole MRCA and the continuing negotiations were farced. As for your senseless posts, give me break.

 

[Tactical Frog]

The cost of 8 Paki F-16s include, training, service, spares and other equipment while the fly away costs of the Rafale I mention is only the cost of the bird at €80 million, I don't assume add-ons. Stop being a lil bitch, your people at Dassault knew since day one exactly what they were getting into and now you're bitching when the going gets tough? Block 52's have a flyaway cost of around 55-60 million.

There is nothing in common between that ugly F16 and the stealthier, discreet Rafale. About the F15 it is not a very discreet plane either. The Rafale has lot of stealthy features in its design.

 

[BON PLAN]

Go foie grois yourself. Dassault is company full of pimps and lying bitches. Delivery has nothing to do with how the whole MRCA and the continuing negotiations were farced. As for your senseless posts, give me break.

It is "Foie Gras". Try to write properly, sausage eater, if not you discredite yourself.:hippo:

 

[Immanuel]

It is "Foie Gras". Try to write properly, sausage eater, if not you discredite yourself.:hippo:

Its ok, shit stain, I'll keep that in mind, next time Germany invades your country would be fun to see you run like pussies like last time too

 

[Immanuel]

There is nothing in common between that ugly F16 and the stealthier, discreet Rafale. About the F15 it is not a very discreet plane either. The Rafale has lot of stealthy features in its design.

Discreteness these days is hype, can be quite easily defeated with radars, MKI's hefty rcs didn't stop it from whacking the Rafale in BVR. So pound for pound the F-15 SA & MKI are still better aircraft than the Rafale. Rafale's stealth is questionable, its doesn't even have a retractable IFR probe. I for one don't believe French souped up brochures.

 

[BON PLAN]

Its ok, shit stain, I'll keep that in mind, next time Germany invades your country would be fun to see you run like pussies like last time too

Last time the end was catastrophic. Catastrophic for you, goose step walkers.
Next time Berlin will be nuked.

 

[BON PLAN]

Discreteness these days is hype, can be quite easily defeated with radars, MKI's hefty rcs didn't stop it from whacking the Rafale in BVR. So pound for pound the F-15 SA & MKI are still better aircraft than the Rafale. Rafale's stealth is questionable, its doesn't even have a retractable IFR probe. I for one don't believe French souped up brochures.

Do you know the exact shape detail and material usied to produce the probe ? NO.
This probe was not add after study, but from the beginning. So it's a whole in the discret aspect of this plane.

Brazilian pilots said Rafale was the stealthier of the 4 competitors in FX2 (others : Gripen, EF, SH18)

 

[Immanuel]

Last time the end was catastrophic. Catastrophic for you, goose step walkers.
Next time Berlin will be nuked.

It's coz you went crying like a bitch to your saviours across the channel and the Atlantic. Anyways, moron you know little about flags, I am in Belgium you franco-fon piece of shit

 

[Immanuel]

Do you know the exact shape detail and material usied to produce the probe ? NO.
This probe was not add after study, but from the beginning. So it's a whole in the discret aspect of this plane.

Brazilian pilots said Rafale was the stealthier of the 4 competitors in FX2 (others : Gripen, EF, SH18)

The same Brazilian pilots had dogfight kills on the Rafale using the F-4. Why discuss Brazil or any other competitive sale for that matter, so far all have been failures, including Switzerland. Only the stooges at Dassault are capable of not selling a great aircraft. Materials matter little, finally in this day and age what matters is cost and value.

 

[smestarz]

Well it is ze french who bunged up their costing, the way the L-1 was determined was tainted to say the least, Dassault had tons of hidden costs in their bid, the truth became quite apparent over time, the real costs had risen by nearly 50%. Rafale was one of the two finalists and the prudent thing to do then would have been to evaluate both instead of focusing on the L-1. This was a grave mistake by the then MOD and UPA stooges.

You of all people shouldn't be saying much about HAL, HAL has its own challenges some of them stem directly from the ineffective MOD of the past years, IAF's fickle attitude towards anything domestic. LCA is a fantastic aircraft that since day 1 has incorporated everything the IAF has wanted over time, IAF has always changed its requirements often while having bastardly approach to the LCA, had they given a flying fuck since the start, they would have had a truly great aircraft by now.

HAL works well with-in the red tape that it's submerged in, if the other orgs. and ministries are efficient, they too can be brought quickly in line.

Dassault is run by pimps, liars and bigots and that is a fact. The MRCA RFP always stated HAL was the lead integrator, why then did Dassult do a U-turn when clearly since day one there was no option but to work with HAL. All of a sudden they were bitching about how HAL couldn't absord tech (biggest joke of that time), how the promised 100% TOT was dropped to less then 70%. Why did Dassult respond to the bid in the first place if working with HAL was such a risk, RFP was always clear on this. HAL by then was already making 90% of the MKI in India, which apart from AESA is just as advanced as the Rafale and in many cases would run circles around the Rafale any day.

No body knows the price but based on previous deals, its quite clear Rafale's costs per unit is well over €120 million and life cycle costs can easily be well over 220 million excluding one time costs of MLU which looking at the Mirage deal would be quite easily around 60 million per bird.

India doesn't need Rafale and its no pity, its a boon with over 9-10 billion saved which can be invested on the LCA/MKI and others, as for other customers for Rafale who gives a flying fuck.

Let me start this by saying that the IAF top brass till recently had no confidence on anything that was made in India. They were ok with the assembled kits. And this apprehension towards indian made product specially for fighter is well documented. Some experts relate this dependence on foreign products for kickbacks, but when one is given power to discriminate thats when the corruption starts. Most of the things mentioned by youa re known facts including Dassault initially signing the RFP and accepting conditions as lead integrator, but the initial plan was same. Rafale L1, there is delay and so the prices get jacked up, since IAF is telling how dire the air force situation is, the Govt gives up for the sake of India and accepts all conditions of Dassault including NEW PRICE and dumping HAL. They tried to do that. But unfortunately the things came out in open. Till recently IAF was talking about the dire shortage of numbers, but they were still unwilling to accept Tejas. So. IAF was desperate that the numbers are bad and we need to order, but at the same time they were not so desperate. So the new Govt called IAF's bluff and now here we are.

Earlier IAF wanted more Mirage 2000 to replace MiG-21s but then they were told that this is not follow on order and they had to go for RFP, Dassault entered with Mirage 2000 whose line they were already shutting as Rafale was being produced (Dassault did not enter with Rafale maybe they wanted the Mirage to make last hurrah) But when all the various planes entered the fray, Dassault realised that Mirage 2000 was the weakest among them and they changed the entry to Rafale. This is recorded history.

The RFP as one might say was fixed for Rafale to win, IAF did not want F-16 or Gripen as they being single engine. They had apprehensions about Russian planes so they ensured that Sukhoi did not enter, and MiG-35 was rejected. The finalist were the Euro canards. Also it is true that the bid of Dassault was incomplete and the then IAF chief NAK Browne supplied the data to ensure that Rafale was declared L1. This is also documented history. When being selected as L1, two of the members did make their objection known in writing saying that the Rafale bid was incomplete and a lot of data was assumed. Further this is the same air chief who had written to Def Min and assured that the Pilatus was and will be cheaper than HTT-40 but then the def min realised that their own Air chief marshall had been lying to them and fixing the deals on someones behalf (we know who)

Actually this very ambiguity in Rafale actual price (which was earlier to be mere 80 million a plane) now seems to have gone up thrice fold. When Modi had been to france he was assured that the price will be cheaper than the price for MMRCA, now the best part is that, if the price was to be lower than that of MRCA, then it shud be 80 million or less and now the price is going to be 200 million + per plane. Even Modi feels not so confident, but fortunately for him it is not his dept and its all left to Parrikar to look into it. Parrikar being a well educated person has many times told the french that the price are much high (for the entire package) and that India expects the price to be at least 40% less than the present price for the package (with weapons, maintenance, spares etc) Now the French have some orders from Egypt and Qatar . So they do not have the pressure to sell to India. This in a way is good for India also because the refusal from India will not really effect French. But many countries look to India as one of the most professional air force and its evaluation of the various planes in MMRCA competition has been very balanced and without bias and hence whatever is there in the report of each plane will be accurate. Also India has tested the planes in many conditions, and so the testing was very thorough. Countries like Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand etc pay attention to what wares India is buying and some do follow suit as these countries have friendly relationship with India and its ability to be a very good supporting partner.

Now the Rafale deal is actually in Coma, and its just the matter of time when the plug will be pulled. The French are very confident of the deal because of their sales to Egypt and Qatar and thus telling India "it is a good deal" but on other hand India is watching the PAKFA flexing its winds as it is the bird of the future for IAF. Qatar and Egypt have not fought a WAR in the past 4 decades. The last war Egypt fought was 1971 and they were beaten badly in that and now they have good relationship with that neighbour at least they are not arming against them. The Indians on other hand are in high stakes game with two big countries who have the armed forces power to compete the Indians