Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

IT is just projected sheet, there are lot available, but then you did contradict yourself, Apparently it seems that the Mirages are not being taken out from Combat service as the Senate would like to, and in terrms of cost cutting, it makes more sense to fly single engine mirages than twin engine Rafales..Food for thought

I'm waiting your own shit (oh ! sorry.... sheet !). You don't find it?

 

[Tactical Frog]

Yes, I know we are calling Froggies.... But do YOU know why ?

You made a confusion between me and Tactical Frog... It's because you are angry? Too busy to verify our datas.... ?
And when I used Wikipedia, I know enough in aerospace world not to insert totally false information. As you when you affirmed yesterday there are 315 Mirage 2000 in the FAF to day !

315 Mirage 2000 in the Armee de l' Air ... that would dwarf the RAF

I like your signature, is that from some Audiard movie ?

 

[BON PLAN]

315 Mirage 2000 in the Armee de l' Air ... that would dwarf the RAF

I like your signature, is that from some Audiard movie ?

Yes !
"un taxi pour Tobrouk..."

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Parody on the title of this thread

Know your rafale

To

No (to) your rafale

 

[Immanuel]

Do not be rude/racist please yo are killing this thread with such assumptions

It's ok, nothing racist about cow behaviour

 

[Immanuel]

Facts remain, ze French pimpz find it harder in all Indian forums to sell their wares. Pretty as their 'belle' might be, they need to learnt to get in line and price their belle like any other 4.5 gen chirpy. As said before, in the context of India, if they manage to get the price to 80 million flyaway per bird including offsets, we can chit chat. Any dime more than this is not worth it.

The same douches don't know that the MKI is being utilized at even 270+ hrs a year, availability at times due to high usage was around 55% partly due to IAF not holding enough spares on hand at BRDs and HAL holding the minimum on its own inventory. The changes are being implemented and at end of year 2015, it was already 65% and by end 2016 we will achieve around 75-80% availability which is a stellar figure for such a large fleet during peace-time. An ability to have 95% availability for short durations of 4 weeks and 90% for the following 8 weeks is also being put in place. The oldest MKIs have already clocked over 4000 hrs, the same will be the first to be upgraded to Super MKI level shortly.

 

[BON PLAN]

Facts remain, ze French pimpz find it harder in all Indian forums to sell their wares. Pretty as their 'belle' might be, they need to learnt to get in line and price their belle like any other 4.5 gen chirpy. As said before, in the context of India, if they manage to get the price to 80 million flyaway per bird including offsets, we can chit chat. Any dime more than this is not worth it.

The same douches don't know that the MKI is being utilized at even 270+ hrs a year, availability at times due to high usage was around 55% partly due to IAF not holding enough spares on hand at BRDs and HAL holding the minimum on its own inventory. The changes are being implemented and at end of year 2015, it was already 65% and by end 2016 we will achieve around 75-80% availability which is a stellar figure for such a large fleet during peace-time. An ability to have 95% availability for short durations of 4 weeks and 90% for the following 8 weeks is also being put in place. The oldest MKIs have already clocked over 4000 hrs, the same will be the first to be upgraded to Super MKI level shortly.

OK.
French air force is very happy with Rafale.
Indian air force seems very happy with MKI (and with Mirage. Enough to give Mirage the deterrence role)

- It's not the french side who choose Rafale as L1. And IAF want it a lot, until years.
- HAL is not a french subsidiary. And everybody knows the difficulties HAL had and has to induce Tejas and some others programm (turboprop trailer, drone) => Dassault prefer not to clinch a deal with a lot of risk, specially with HAL. It's a key point of the last MMRCA not deal.
- Nobody's here knows the real price of the deal.... and what kind or TOT and real offset and nature of support needed.

So let's see what happend.

If India don't want Rafale, it's a pity, but not the end of the world. Others customers arrived soon, and are able to clinch until some month.

End of the story.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Facts remain, ze French pimpz find it harder in all Indian forums to sell their wares. Pretty as their 'belle' might be, they need to learnt to get in line and price their belle like any other 4.5 gen chirpy. As said before, in the context of India, if they manage to get the price to 80 million flyaway per bird including offsets, we can chit chat. Any dime more than this is not worth it.

Hmm. So if I get it straight, you want the Rafale at a lower price than Pakistan new F16s. 699 million $ for 8 jets , with training , radar and other equipment. And you want offsets too, unlike Pakistan. I did not realize how hard it was to chit chat with Indians !

 

[smestarz]

Yes, I know we are calling Froggies.... But do YOU know why ?

You made a confusion between me and Tactical Frog... It's because you are angry? Too busy to verify our datas.... ?
And when I used Wikipedia, I know enough in aerospace world not to insert totally false information. As you when you affirmed yesterday there are 315 Mirage 2000 in the FAF to day !

Why would i be confused between you an tactical frog? And why should I be angry, this is just a debate, whatever we chat, does not really relate to dumping of Rafale. Also you are not my gf that I might be angry on you.
The point being you quoted a different section and I quoted a different section, and I need to be angry for that?

 

[smestarz]

315 Mirage 2000 in the Armee de l' Air ... that would dwarf the RAF

I like your signature, is that from some Audiard movie ?

RAF is trying to reduce its planes also,
The signature is from a song called Revolution calling. Its sung by a band called Queensryche, Album : Operation Mindcrime.. And in a way, this is true in India and so it makes sense

 

[smestarz]

OK.
French air force is very happy with Rafale.
Indian air force seems very happy with MKI (and with Mirage. Enough to give Mirage the deterrence role).

AdlA is happy with Rafale because they use it and they find its good for their requirement, and of course its french. The IAF is "happy" with MKI. IAF top brass was not keeping enough spares and then claiming that most of Su-30 MKI fleet is grounded, IAF was blaming everyone else, but the main reason for this mess is IAF thinking.
Mirage 2000 are being upgraded. The deterrence role is with Strategic Missiles now, and then it will go to Super Suhois. IAF does realise that for sending Mirage 2000 on nuclear strike mission, it will have to be accompanied by Su-30 MKI or at least MiG-29 to keep away the PAF F-16 block 52

It's not the french side who choose Rafale as L1. And IAF want it a lot, until years.

YES exactly it is WANT of IAF, and not the actual need. Whatever we need that is fulfilled by "heavier" Su-30 MKI, Medium MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 and Light Tejas. and further to be enhanced by FGFA.

- HAL is not a french subsidiary. And everybody knows the difficulties HAL had and has to induce Tejas and some others programm (turboprop trailer, drone) => Dassault prefer not to clinch a deal with a lot of risk, specially with HAL. It's a key point of the last MMRCA not deal.

It was Indian Air force which was changing the ASQR repeatedly to ensure that GoI feels that Tejas is useless and to buy more Rafale, It is clear from start for most experts and even the IAF brass that it is either one or other. The IAF brass knows that Light itnerceptor like MiG-21 cannot be replaced by Rafale, the missions are different. Rafale is not an interceptor further the cost of buying, using and maintaining are different. Thus MiG-21 should be replaced by another single engine plane. IAF first tried to do that with Mirage 2000 to start with, Rather IAF went into the game knowing it was the expert, but now realise that they can suggest but not decide what to buy. Thus buying of Tejas will automatically kill the want of Rafale, because then as the air force chief says we shall have planes in each weight category unless they make a special Mediuum Medium MRCA category to zero in on Rafale. and say we need MMMRCA.

- Nobody's here knows the real price of the deal.... and what kind or TOT and real offset and nature of support needed.
So let's see what happend.

There is not going to be ToT and the offsets would be abt 50% but ONLY IF THE DEAL HAPPENS. At the price of roughly US$ 230 million a pop, I dont think the GoI will risk to buy Rafale when 5th gen PAKFA is available at much cheaper rate and yes, both planes will come around same time With more than 100 Tejas Mk1 ordered, the Rafale will be one of the story that the french will be able to say about the cake baked but could not be eaten.

If India don't want Rafale, it's a pity, but not the end of the world. Others customers arrived soon, and are able to clinch until some month.

End of the story.

Surely it is not the end of the world, French can try and sell to other customers, but the only customers who can pay the price are the ones from Middle east, And in a way they are the countries who are passively supporting IS.. Anyway that is another issue and that is political, that is for some other topic.

One thing is fact that Tejas are coming to IAF in numbers and with more Tejas taken in that diminishes the chances of Rafale. After all even the Defence minister of India said that MiG-21 cannot be replaced by Rafales and now its question of what will replace the MIGs and the answer is TEJAS

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Hmm. So if I get it straight, you want the Rafale at a lower price than Pakistan new F16s. 699 million $ for 8 jets , with training , radar and other equipment. And you want offsets too, unlike Pakistan. I did not realize how hard it was to chit chat with Indians !

What Pakistan pays is their issue

Also we are not asking for rafdars and other equipment

We want dasault.to give rafales at

1. Rates which are lower than that quoted under mmrca

2. To prove that the maintainance is low cost by quoting a lower price a lower price on spares and maintainance than Russian so called junk which should reflect in lower costs of maintainance contract

 

[smestarz]

Hmm. So if I get it straight, you want the Rafale at a lower price than Pakistan new F16s. 699 million $ for 8 jets , with training , radar and other equipment. And you want offsets too, unlike Pakistan. I did not realize how hard it was to chit chat with Indians !

The first part,, yes you are right. We want it as cheaper as what Pakistan is getting F-16 for (per unit) now why does that happen

Usually Pakistan does not pay for the planes outright, usually Americans give them on loans which are not guaranteed.

Americans cannot really ask Pakistan for offsets, I mean Pakistan does not have a strong industrial base, what are the Americans going to do? Ask Boeing to put a big factory in Pakistan? Pakistan air bases and naval base are targets for terrorists in Pakistan, How can an American asset be protected?

ToT, if they transfer tech, it would reach the Chinese..

I did recently read that PAF was interested in Rafales.

 

[smestarz]

What Pakistan pays is their issue

Also we are not asking for rafdars and other equipment

We want dasault.to give rafales at

1. Rates which are lower than that quoted under mmrca

2. To prove that the maintainance is low cost by quoting a lower price a lower price on spares and maintainance than Russian so called junk which should reflect in lower costs of maintainance contract

I saw a video on youtube in the different in Western planes and air base versus Russian and in a way its educative

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

AdlA is happy with Rafale because they use it and they find its good for their requirement, and of course its french. The IAF is "happy" with MKI. IAF top brass was not keeping enough spares and then claiming that most of Su-30 MKI fleet is grounded, IAF was blaming everyone else, but the main reason for this mess is IAF thinking.
Mirage 2000 are being upgraded. The deterrence role is with Strategic Missiles now, and then it will go to Super Suhois. IAF does realise that for sending Mirage 2000 on nuclear strike mission, it will have to be accompanied by Su-30 MKI or at least MiG-29 to keep away the PAF F-16 block 52


YES exactly it is WANT of IAF, and not the actual need. Whatever we need that is fulfilled by "heavier" Su-30 MKI, Medium MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 and Light Tejas. and further to be enhanced by FGFA.


It was Indian Air force which was changing the ASQR repeatedly to ensure that GoI feels that Tejas is useless and to buy more Rafale, It is clear from start for most experts and even the IAF brass that it is either one or other. The IAF brass knows that Light itnerceptor like MiG-21 cannot be replaced by Rafale, the missions are different. Rafale is not an interceptor further the cost of buying, using and maintaining are different. Thus MiG-21 should be replaced by another single engine plane. IAF first tried to do that with Mirage 2000 to start with, Rather IAF went into the game knowing it was the expert, but now realise that they can suggest but not decide what to buy. Thus buying of Tejas will automatically kill the want of Rafale, because then as the air force chief says we shall have planes in each weight category unless they make a special Mediuum Medium MRCA category to zero in on Rafale. and say we need MMMRCA.



There is not going to be ToT and the offsets would be abt 50% but ONLY IF THE DEAL HAPPENS. At the price of roughly US$ 230 million a pop, I dont think the GoI will risk to buy Rafale when 5th gen PAKFA is available at much cheaper rate and yes, both planes will come around same time With more than 100 Tejas Mk1 ordered, the Rafale will be one of the story that the french will be able to say about the cake baked but could not be eaten.


Surely it is not the end of the world, French can try and sell to other customers, but the only customers who can pay the price are the ones from Middle east, And in a way they are the countries who are passively supporting IS.. Anyway that is another issue and that is political, that is for some other topic.

One thing is fact that Tejas are coming to IAF in numbers and with more Tejas taken in that diminishes the chances of Rafale. After all even the Defence minister of India said that MiG-21 cannot be replaced by Rafales and now its question of what will replace the MIGs and the answer is TEJAS

With the lower prices of oil the budgets of gcc countries are already under strain or will be in next 2-3 years if the oil prices persists at these lower levels

 

[smestarz]

With the lower prices of oil the budgets of gcc countries are already under strain or will be in next 2-3 years if the oil prices persists at these lower levels

there was a meeting of the oil producing countries ministers including Saudi and Russia and they have agreed to cut production rather the word was "freeze production" and thus the oil prices might tend to go up soon.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

there was a meeting of the oil producing countries ministers including Saudi and Russia and they have agreed to cut production rather the word was "freeze production" and thus the oil prices might tend to go up soon.

But by how much from current levels ?

The budget break even price for most countries is above 90$ a barell

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

there was a meeting of the oil producing countries ministers including Saudi and Russia and they have agreed to cut production rather the word was "freeze production" and thus the oil prices might tend to go up soon.

Also what they are not factoring in is 2/things

1. Entry of Iran in oil & gas markets

2. The partial switchover of major economies from oil to gas and entry if us in gas exports markets next year and it's effects

So two new players exporters entering the market

Iran in oil & gas
&
Us in gas

 

[BON PLAN]

RAF is trying to reduce its planes also,
The signature is from a song called Revolution calling. Its sung by a band called Queensryche, Album : Operation Mindcrime.. And in a way, this is true in India and so it makes sense

Sorry Bro, My signature is a famous sentence of the movie "un Taxi pour Tobrouk" in which a french actor (Maurice Ronet if I remember well) say that to Aznavour (who is also a singer).
We can discuss hard about Rafale, but you can't speak in my place about things I personnaly wrote in my profile

 

[BON PLAN]

Mirage 2000 are being upgraded. The deterrence role is with Strategic Missiles now, and then it will go to Super Suhois. IAF does realise that for sending Mirage 2000 on nuclear strike mission, it will have to be accompanied by Su-30 MKI or at least MiG-29 to keep away the PAF F-16 block 52

With your "old" Mirage, maybe. Mith new radar and Mica, not need to be acccompagnied. 6 MICA are enough for self defense.