Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Su-30 MKI are in use in IAF since 2002, and since we recently are setting up Upgrade and overhaul facility in Nasik for overhauling the Su-30 MKI in India itself and not sending them to Russia.

IAF uses Su-30 MKI about 240 hrs a year, where as the recommended is 120 hrs a year. Thus if you assume a plane that was say inducted in 2005, that is 10 years till now, so that plane has already flown 2400 hours already.

Within the next few years, the Su-30 MKI from the first batch, 2002 batch will go for overhaul and possibly MLU. so 2002 to 2018 that would constitute about 16 years of service. so 240 hrs a year and 16 years that should come to 3840 hours and those will be over hauled, and then they are good for another 16-20 years of service.
But at this juncture the 3840 hr mark is already passed so the life of the air frame is not 4000 hours as you said. Thus the figure should be more than 7000 hours.at least

Your birds are not flying 240 hours/year. See availability isssues in the past.

 

[BON PLAN]

Hell the french don't even play in the exercises for fear of being whacked

They just try to collect elint to upgrade their database

Even not afraid of F22, so MKI .....

 

[BON PLAN]

It seems only you find it funny, maybe you do not understand English, do you?
Try to learn some and then we debate

Your answer is a clear argument that you haven't ... argument.

 

[BON PLAN]

True RBE2 AA is not part of actual SPECTRA, but the data fusion also involves RBE 2AA. SPECTRA as I said is same as DASS. just the Euroconsortium call it DASS and French call it SPECTRA as its there only for Rafale.
There were some debates where some french contibutors say that if any plane opens its Radar SPECTRA will detect it and then fire on it. And then there was a queston if SPECTRA was such wonderful, why do French need a Radar themselves. Are they stupid?

Spectra can't fire a AMRAAM like missile and give mid course information.
Spectra can't found a tank on the ground.

Spectra need IR, laser or radar signals.

Spectra is made to avoid ennemy SAM and air to air radar. Spectra is also used to triangulate signals so as to extract coordonates to deliver weapons. Not faisible with a rapid air threat. So radar remain usefull.

But you know that.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is too eager for orders, where as the F-16 line is already closing down, They dont see the point to put in more efforts. F-16 C is a mid 80s plane. Have you noticed that recently the French ae trying to get into all the conflicts that they can to "prove" their planes but the Americans are being selective about it?

Once again, NO !

Nearly half the french fleet is made of Rafale. So we use it. Is as simple as that.

 

[BON PLAN]

sorry for the english flag. I'm french and my contry is france in my profile.....

 

[Tactical Frog]

About Fact 2: IAF, a lot of water has passed the bridge, Even if the Deal is signed now, the plane would not be available for the next 3 years at least and the entire 36 planes would come after maybe 7-8 years.

Not true. Dasssault has taken steps to triple its production starting from 2018 ( if the contract with India is signed now). That means 3 Rafale per month, so 33-36 a year ( we do have holidays in France, mind you).

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Your birds are not flying 240 hours/year. See availability isssues in the past.

Those 240/are sure

The whole fleet is not down and neither for whole year

 

[smestarz]

ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE TO SEE FGFA UNTIL 10 YEARS IN SQUADRONS !!!! too new, too costly, indian bureaucraty too slow....

FGFA is not a new plane, you don't get it do you? Let me explain. The basic platform is PAKFA, and then the indian pilots fly those 3 planes and test them and then they come up with their own modifications and that evolution becomes FGFA. We are not designing another new plane called FGFA, we have AMCA on hands.

We had taken Russian Su-30 before and then tested them and then came with various requirements including Canards and other things that evolved into Su-30 MKI for India and that development is also used by Russia as Su-30 SM. Thus to relate, PAKFA in a way relates to Su-30 (basic platform) and FGFA will relate to Su-30 MKI, it does not really look good to have a plane named PAKFA MKI.. so we just call this development as FGFA,
So the modifications as I understand now are powerful engines and maybe some Israeli avionics which Israel wanted to put on their F-35 .. and rest will be Russian
PAKFA/FGFA in a way will be cheaper than Rafale's US$ 230 million a pop, isnt that incredible? And that is the reason why I am telling you that Rafale deal is off. At the same time that we can get 36 4th Gen Rafales from France we can get 60+ FGFA some as kits and some produced in India, and maybe we can use the Su-30 MKI lines modified a bit.. saves money. and yes it will come with some ToT.

 

[smestarz]

No overhaul with Rafale. Maintenance is made on status given by the internal survey system.

And are you sure MKI made 240 h/year ???? With the past low disponibility it's very surprising.

It is confirmed yes, and its there in the CAG report. Russia reccomends 120 hrs per year of flying and IAF flies 24 hours a year.
Now you are confused between availability etc and let me tell you that

A) as per many sources, Su-30 MKI does need a lot of maintenance.
B) Each Su-30 MKI in IAF flies at least 240 hrs a year.

The availability rate means that any given time there are now 60% fleet is available to carry out any mission, So any given sunday, you will have 120 planes out of 200 available for mission MINIMUM. now the 80 other planes are not having a yearly vacation, they are just having time off, and when they are in the sky, few other are being maintained.

Russians design their planes to take off and land in very basic air strips, and even the planes are kept in open, but for French equipment they have to be put in air conditioned hangars, that is the difference,
In a way Su-30 MKI is popeye and Rafale is donald duck.

 

[smestarz]

Once again, NO !

Nearly half the french fleet is made of Rafale. So we use it. Is as simple as that.

Which half?

Let us do the Maths, Total Rafale produced till now ... 141, out of which
AdlA has 91 planes in service
Marine have 44,

Total Mirage 2000 produced for FRANCE

2000C Single-seat fighter 124
Updated to 2000-5F specs 37

2000D Two-seat conventional strike 86
2000N Two-seat nuclear strike 75
2000B Two-seater with 2000C kit 30
Total 315

So which half of the French fleet are you talking about?

Miarage 2000 315 planes vs Rafales 91 /141,

Rather Mirage 2000 outnumber Rafales by ratio of 1: 2 or 1: 3 not really half but Rafale is 1/3rd or maybe 1/4th of the force depending on you take 91 or 141, AND NOT HALF.. you need to get the facts correct.

 

[smestarz]

Even not afraid of F22, so MKI .....

True Rafale is not afraid of F-22 or Su-30 MKI, if the pilot is afraid maybe should leave the airforce
Rafale will simply be shot down by F-22 and Su-30 MKI the french chappies wont even get time to be afraid.

 

[smestarz]

Your birds are not flying 240 hours/year. See availability isssues in the past.

You need to know the difference between flying hours and availability. I did put in my earlier post

The availability rate means that any given time there are now 60% fleet is available to carry out any mission, So any given sunday, you will have 120 planes out of 200 available for mission MINIMUM. now the 80 other planes are not having a yearly vacation, they are just having time off, and when they are in the sky, few other are being maintained. And in a year, All the Su-30 MKI fly 240 hrs. and just to remind you there are 8760 hours in a year, I hope that stops your confusion

 

[smestarz]

Spectra can't fire a AMRAAM like missile and give mid course information.
Spectra can't found a tank on the ground.

Spectra need IR, laser or radar signals.

Spectra is made to avoid ennemy SAM and air to air radar. Spectra is also used to triangulate signals so as to extract coordonates to deliver weapons. Not faisible with a rapid air threat. So radar remain usefull.

But you know that.

Whatever you described about SPECTRA same is what DASS does, and thats what I am trying to tell you. SPECTRA is nothing wonderful its just Fusion of the various sub systems Receivers and Jammers

 

[smestarz]

sorry for the english flag. I'm french and my contry is france in my profile.....

Once in a while its good for you to be British, At one point British did rule Normandie

 

[kaboom!]

Once in a while its good for you to be British, At one point British did rule Normandie

oooh! Shots fired!!...................

 

[Tactical Frog]

So which half of the French fleet are you talking about?

Miarage 2000 315 planes vs Rafales 91 /141,

Rather Mirage 2000 outnumber Rafales by ratio of 1: 2 or 1: 3 not really half but Rafale is 1/3rd or maybe 1/4th of the force depending on you take 91 or 141, AND NOT HALF.. you need to get the facts correct.

A quick look at wikipedia gives the following figures for the French Air Force : 124 Mirage 2000 , 95 Rafale.

Not that wiki is flawless but it can' t be very far from reality.

You need to get the facts correct !

 

[BON PLAN]

FGFA is not a new plane, you don't get it do you? Let me explain. The basic platform is PAKFA, and then the indian pilots fly those 3 planes and test them and then they come up with their own modifications and that evolution becomes FGFA. We are not designing another new plane called FGFA, we have AMCA on hands.

We had taken Russian Su-30 before and then tested them and then came with various requirements including Canards and other things that evolved into Su-30 MKI for India and that development is also used by Russia as Su-30 SM. Thus to relate, PAKFA in a way relates to Su-30 (basic platform) and FGFA will relate to Su-30 MKI, it does not really look good to have a plane named PAKFA MKI.. so we just call this development as FGFA,
So the modifications as I understand now are powerful engines and maybe some Israeli avionics which Israel wanted to put on their F-35 .. and rest will be Russian
PAKFA/FGFA in a way will be cheaper than Rafale's US$ 230 million a pop, isnt that incredible? And that is the reason why I am telling you that Rafale deal is off. At the same time that we can get 36 4th Gen Rafales from France we can get 60+ FGFA some as kits and some produced in India, and maybe we can use the Su-30 MKI lines modified a bit.. saves money. and yes it will come with some ToT.

Russia and India are reviewing the costs of the T-50 !

India and Russia have agreed to a cost reduction in the manufacture of the future fifth generation fighter Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA. This new agreement was finalized during the visit to Moscow, Indian Prime Minister Narendra last December.

The cost-sharing:

Both partners will invest the equivalent of $ 4 billion over the next seven years, including $ 2 billion each for the first year and the remainder evenly distributed over the next six years. The total development cost is now estimated at $ 10 billion, compared with 12 billion previously announced.

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will participate in 25% of the work and the Indian electronics company Bharat Electronics will increase its stake of around 10% to 20%. Furthermore, we learn that Indian companies will manage the replacement of the Russian avionics, including missions and navigation systems, computers and display and management systems, as well as self-protection systems for the export version of the T-50, which will be significantly different from the version for India and Russia.

The Indian Air Force plans to acquire 250 Sukhoi T-50. For its part, the Russian Air Force will receive its first aircraft next year and have a first batch of 55 T-50 into service in 2020 (It was 2016 2 years ago).

Recall :

The PAK -FA project originated in the 1990s, when Russia decided to launch two programs in order to replace the MiG-29 and Su-27 . One was a heavy jet , the other a light single engine . The first project will create the Sukhoi S-37 " Berkut " and the other the MiG 1.44.

Sukhoi will ultimately be chosen based on their demonstration April 26, 2002 , ousting MiG . This is the launch of the PAK -FA program. India has become a 50% financial partner and brings experience in the field of information technology and composite materials. The aircraft will also have an OSF and a data fusion. The engine chosen is the NPO Saturn 117S 14.5 tons of thrust .

Source : Avia News.

For the moment, PAKFA is just an acrobatic plane, without the most interessant : an armament system. And what about the final engine....

 

[BON PLAN]

It is confirmed yes, and its there in the CAG report. Russia reccomends 120 hrs per year of flying and IAF flies 24 hours a year.

YES ! 24 hours a year..... LOL

 

[BON PLAN]

Russians design their planes to take off and land in very basic air strips, and even the planes are kept in open, but for French equipment they have to be put in air conditioned hangars, that is the difference,

AH AH AH !!!!

In UAE and in Mali, sure Rafale are stored in conditionned Hangars ....

Sorry, I don't see them (the famous hangars) on the deck of Charles de Gaulle carrier.

Funny puppet you are.