Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

You better get over the swiss eval, Bt the way, yes Rafale has evolved a lot and Eurofighter was stuck due to need for the all the partners to agree, but now, The proverbial Rabbit Rafale has reached its evolution and nothing new coming soon. The Eurofighter tortoise is already moving towards bigger and better radar and few other things, so the race is on..

New GaN radar in study. Probably conformal. EF has not AESA radar yet !
New GaN antennae for Spectra.
New fish eyes IR detector,
New OSF,
New engine of 8.3 tons of thrust in 2018
.... etc....

 

[BON PLAN]

And outdated no? India is also upgrading Mirage 2000 but even after upgrade it is 3rd gen + and out dated, with even the F-16 that pakistan has beng able to shoot it down without a sweat. I have a balloon with me with its life possible to be even 20000 hrs. no need of any maintenance. So is IAF going to fly my ballooon?
You forget the most important point. CAPABILITY. Even with the 4000 hours how capable are the Su-30 MKI? They do outclass Rafale totally. We are buying planes for a war, and not to keep them in museum. So in a way Su-30 MKI with its heavy weight, high fuel capcity, ability to carry Brahmos and Russian missiles and 4000 hrs life is more capable than Rafale with 8000 hours life. The example is there in Syria where both planes are operating. The french used their Rafales for more than a year, the IS didnt even break a sweat. But with the Russians coming in, there is a big swing in the things on ground.
so in this way, either the Rafale was not really effective in Syria to make a "statement" else you have a pathetic leadership that was just "acting" in syria and actually just flying picnic sorties.

Russian plane in Syria take off from syrian bases !
Rafale from EAU, Charles de Gaulle carrier, and Mirage 2000 from Jordania. It change a lot no?
And russian, as during WW2 don't take care of civilian casualties : they fired all.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

New GaN radar in study. Probably conformal. EF has not AESA radar yet !
New GaN antennae for Spectra.
New fish eyes IR detector,
New OSF,
New engine of 8.3 tons of thrust in 2018
.... etc....

Yes all of it in the future that after 5 to 10 years

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Upgraded Mirage with Mica is a nice fighter. Absolutely able to outmatch F16 (which is a nice fighter also).
Do you think Indian are so stupid to modernized a finished fighter?
What's important is not only the airframe (but usefull), but the electronic Equipment. And Newer Mirage 2000 and Rafale are among the best. It's a french speciality the electonic support end environnement.
A huge radar (as in SU30) isn't enough. SU30 is a huge plane, with a huge radar signature.... Rafale less. far less...

Mirage don't have aesa

F16 have

Tejas will have

 

[smestarz]

Upgraded Mirage with Mica is a nice fighter. Absolutely able to outmatch F16 (which is a nice fighter also).
Do you think Indian are so stupid to modernized a finished fighter?
What's important is not only the airframe (but usefull), but the electronic Equipment. And Newer Mirage 2000 and Rafale are among the best. It's a french speciality the electonic support end environnement.
A huge radar (as in SU30) isn't enough. SU30 is a huge plane, with a huge radar signature.... Rafale less. far less...

Mirage even after upgrade is outdated.
We upgraded it for a few reasons, when we upgraded it it was the only plane in IAF that was able to strike in Kargil, so it was a good idea. But considering how much it costs (some French members did say that Rafale costs US$ 73 for fly away, and then considering that it cost almost US$ 51 million a plane to upgrade is what we call daylight robbery. Just for reference Tejas with AESA costs much lower.

Su-30 MKI is a bigger plane than Rafale, more maneueverable than Rafale can carry heavier load and longer internal fuel range than Rafale has longer range missiles and bigger nose and hence bigger radar that can detect at longer distances.

BTW, you said that SPECTRA will have GaN modules, the french are really getting confused, SPECTRA is collections of various MWR and RWRs on Rafale and the fusion of these including the Radar is termed SPECTRA, Even Su-30 MKI has MWR and RWR, the only thing being that Data fusion is not that good and honestly we dont have time to name just data fusion to make it sound wondeful.

Also Su-30 MKI has a pilot who focuses on flying the mission and the WSO focusing on using the weapons . IAF suggested this system so that there is better chances of success and the flying load (if any) is reduced.

 

[smestarz]

Russian plane in Syria take off from syrian bases !
Rafale from EAU, Charles de Gaulle carrier, and Mirage 2000 from Jordania. It change a lot no?
And russian, as during WW2 don't take care of civilian casualties : they fired all.

If you see the MAP, Jordan is next to Iraq... so right next. The Rafale flies from CDG for simple reason, where else were you going to fly Rafales from? Iraq? Iran? Syria?
The Syrians invited the Russians and the russians put a base in syria. Some of the Russian bombers like Tupolev Blackjacks flew from Russia to west and then through english channel and through mediteranean into syria and bombed the targets.. that too without refueling...So they went around europe and then bombed syria to show what they are capable of.
Also its important to hae more time over target to be more effective. You feel that rafale flying from France and then bombing targets in Syria will be effective? And with say 3 drop tanks, what will be the load of weapons it can carry? Specially the A2G load..

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes all of it in the future that after 5 to 10 years

Fish eye IR detector already in production.
GaN components for Spectra also, or nearly.
The rest is coming from 3 to 10 years.

and also New Stealth développements (but it seems Spectra leave it useless ....), new active electronic flare, conformal tanks, stealth container for AtoG weapons, SAT com, DIRCM, ....

 

[BON PLAN]

Mirage don't have aesa

F16 have

Tejas will have

Some F16 have. Very few in fact (only UAE today).
The AESA Rafale radar was tested in the Mirage 2000 nose.... so feasible. Only a question of $ and Customer need.

 

[BON PLAN]

Mirage even after upgrade is outdated.
We upgraded it for a few reasons, when we upgraded it it was the only plane in IAF that was able to strike in Kargil, so it was a good idea. But considering how much it costs (some French members did say that Rafale costs US$ 73 for fly away, and then considering that it cost almost US$ 51 million a plane to upgrade is what we call daylight robbery. Just for reference Tejas with AESA costs much lower.

Su-30 MKI is a bigger plane than Rafale, more maneueverable than Rafale can carry heavier load and longer internal fuel range than Rafale has longer range missiles and bigger nose and hence bigger radar that can detect at longer distances.

BTW, you said that SPECTRA will have GaN modules, the french are really getting confused, SPECTRA is collections of various MWR and RWRs on Rafale and the fusion of these including the Radar is termed SPECTRA, Even Su-30 MKI has MWR and RWR, the only thing being that Data fusion is not that good and honestly we dont have time to name just data fusion to make it sound wondeful.

Also Su-30 MKI has a pilot who focuses on flying the mission and the WSO focusing on using the weapons . IAF suggested this system so that there is better chances of success and the flying load (if any) is reduced.

So Indians officials and air force boss are idiots.
Why do you think they spend such money? France is a second role country in the world. If you buy our technologies, it's because it's usefull for you.

SU30 wonderfull? it's not what your air force boss think (no plan B with SU for MMRCA he said).

Spectra : it's a high level secret. We spend 1 billion euro to developp it. France was the first country to developp electonic support (for Mirage 4 and 3 nuclear mission). And we are one of the top in the world in this area. Spectra is probably the jewel of Rafale. Say or think what you want about it.... You simply don't understand all its capacity.

 

[BON PLAN]

If you see the MAP, Jordan is next to Iraq... so right next. The Rafale flies from CDG for simple reason, where else were you going to fly Rafales from? Iraq? Iran? Syria?
The Syrians invited the Russians and the russians put a base in syria. Some of the Russian bombers like Tupolev Blackjacks flew from Russia to west and then through english channel and through mediteranean into syria and bombed the targets.. that too without refueling...So they went around europe and then bombed syria to show what they are capable of.
Also its important to hae more time over target to be more effective. You feel that rafale flying from France and then bombing targets in Syria will be effective? And with say 3 drop tanks, what will be the load of weapons it can carry? Specially the A2G load..

Already said : our Rafale are based in United Arab Emirates.

And even if Jordania is nearer, it not INSIDE syria, like russian air base.

 

[garg_bharat]

I find it funny to see so much argument on price and features of planes when little about the deal is in public domain.

Public is not party to what goes on between different arms of government.

Only the main points have been released by official or semiofficial sources, and these main points related to the cost of the planes.

The Indian manufacture was dropped due to French charging too much and also due to HAL unable to absorb technology.

The number of planes went down as life cycle costs came much higher than existing top end plane.

 

[smestarz]

So Indians officials and air force boss are idiots. Why do you think they spend such money?

Are you so naive? KICKBACKS Of course and that is why the earlier IAF Chief NAK Browne misinformed a lot of things about the actual cost of Rafales and also about Pilatus, and many of the defence officials have officially now on record to say that NAK Browne misinformed them about the cost of Pilatus, So you think the IAF boss is a liar? a crook? an idiot? you are free to choose

France is a second role country in the world. If you buy our technologies, it's because it's usefull for you.

France is a second string country as of now, yes. YES we shall buy technologies which are useful for us, unfortunately seems the French Rafale is not worth the price.
BTW, you are supposed to be french and sporting a British flag? Did the British over run France again?
You are already talking English, so maybe the french surrendered again did they?

SU30 wonderfull? it's not what your air force boss think (no plan B with SU for MMRCA he said).

The air force boss has said many things in the past, Did they not say that they will not order more than 40 Tejas and those will be Lead in Fighter Trainers? (LIFT) now they are buying 120+ Tejas
Did the earlier chief not say that Pilatus was cheapest and now we find its not?
At one point of tme after the present chief said that "we need Rafale" he was actually saying we need an MMRCA and there are options.... did you forget that?
Unfortunately IAF does not work and run under the whims and fancies of their chief. And surely the planes are not ordered because he wants it. The IAF chief had earlier complained about PAKFA and strangely we are negotiation PAKFA with Russia .. You can safely cuddle to what IAF chief said in past, but the present reality is different. By the way, was it not that all the media and the French officials said that Hollande will be signing the contract for Rafale on eve of our republic day , But all they signed was IGA which is not a contract or deal, It just is an agreement that we want to buy.. Any agreement without a price is not an agreement.
So based on all that our air chief, our defence minister, your defence minister and Dassault chief had said, we would have been flying with Rafales as of now. Unfortunately for you, we are not. So you can be happy with what you believe in. Make sure you keep the paper cuttings of what our various officials said in past.

Spectra : it's a high level secret. We spend 1 billion euro to developp it. France was the first country to developp electonic support (for Mirage 4 and 3 nuclear mission). And we are one of the top in the world in this area. Spectra is probably the jewel of Rafale. Say or think what you want about it.... You simply don't understand all its capacity.

SPECTRA is "top level secret" which unfortunately is over rated. You spent 1 billion to develop it? India is developing similar system for Tejas at fraction of the price. Unfortunately for you SPECTRA is top level secret, but for those of us who know some or at least more than you, we know that its over-rated. The Euroffighter has DASS which works on similarly as SPECTRA but they dont market it like the French as if its something out of the world... There is a funny thing thoug, even when the French have the "top level SPECTRA" that did not really help when two of your Marine Rafales crashed into each other.. maybe the SPECTRA still needs a lot of investment to make it more capable..

 

[BON PLAN]

Are you so naive? KICKBACKS Of course and that is why the earlier IAF Chief NAK Browne misinformed a lot of things about the actual cost of Rafales and also about Pilatus, and many of the defence officials have officially now on record to say that NAK Browne misinformed them about the cost of Pilatus, So you think the IAF boss is a liar? a crook? an idiot? you are free to choose


France is a second string country as of now, yes. YES we shall buy technologies which are useful for us, unfortunately seems the French Rafale is not worth the price.
BTW, you are supposed to be french and sporting a British flag? Did the British over run France again?
You are already talking English, so maybe the french surrendered again did they?



The air force boss has said many things in the past, Did they not say that they will not order more than 40 Tejas and those will be Lead in Fighter Trainers? (LIFT) now they are buying 120+ Tejas
Did the earlier chief not say that Pilatus was cheapest and now we find its not?
At one point of tme after the present chief said that "we need Rafale" he was actually saying we need an MMRCA and there are options.... did you forget that?
Unfortunately IAF does not work and run under the whims and fancies of their chief. And surely the planes are not ordered because he wants it. The IAF chief had earlier complained about PAKFA and strangely we are negotiation PAKFA with Russia .. You can safely cuddle to what IAF chief said in past, but the present reality is different. By the way, was it not that all the media and the French officials said that Hollande will be signing the contract for Rafale on eve of our republic day , But all they signed was IGA which is not a contract or deal, It just is an agreement that we want to buy.. Any agreement without a price is not an agreement.
So based on all that our air chief, our defence minister, your defence minister and Dassault chief had said, we would have been flying with Rafales as of now. Unfortunately for you, we are not. So you can be happy with what you believe in. Make sure you keep the paper cuttings of what our various officials said in past.



SPECTRA is "top level secret" which unfortunately is over rated. You spent 1 billion to develop it? India is developing similar system for Tejas at fraction of the price. Unfortunately for you SPECTRA is top level secret, but for those of us who know some or at least more than you, we know that its over-rated. The Euroffighter has DASS which works on similarly as SPECTRA but they dont market it like the French as if its something out of the world... There is a funny thing thoug, even when the French have the "top level SPECTRA" that did not really help when two of your Marine Rafales crashed into each other.. maybe the SPECTRA still needs a lot of investment to make it more capable..

My country flag is french. I don't understand why it appeared English.

It's forbiden in France the back payment. English governement less : remember the sell of EF to arabia : Prime minister said aboit that "it's a secret and an internal affair. Pass your way please".

Spectra : It's the only system during a MACE xxx that was able to counter SA 10. During one of the first serious exercice between English EF and Rafale, some English pilots were surprised not to see Rafale on their radar..... It was just a small test, but now 1) English RAF doesn't want to play with Rafale 2) French team has full confidence in the system, they don't want to show more.

Absolutely no link between two crash and Spectra. It was a pilot mistake.

DASS? a classical EW system, as EF is : classical.....

 

[Tactical Frog]

Hey, you're a new member. Can you introduce yourself in members section.

Sorry about this ! I am not here to make waves, rather to get some coverage about what ' s going on with the Rafale deal.

 

[smestarz]

Some F16 have. Very few in fact (only UAE today).
The AESA Rafale radar was tested in the Mirage 2000 nose.... so feasible. Only a question of $ and Customer need.

That basicaly makes me ask a question, Firstly about Mirage 2000,
Can the Mirage 2000 generate the power for using RBE2 AA? I dont think its the question of price and customer need. IT is also about if the plane can generate enough power too. Funny as it may seem but Israelis have developed an AESA for Mirage 2000 years ago.

Also as you said its just the question of price and assuming you say that Mirage 2000 can generate enough power etc, then why cant France then integrate the over rated Spectra on Mirage 2000 ?
Since as compared to other planes, Mirage is the weakest 4th Gen plane around, so giving it what you call "one of the best defensive suite" would be an advantage..
Or maybe France is more comfortable using its planes against unarmed 3rd world countries and to "prove" their planes

 

[smestarz]

Already said : our Rafale are based in United Arab Emirates.

And even if Jordania is nearer, it not INSIDE syria, like russian air base.

The Syrians invited the Russians to help them, they did not invite France, so in syria the rest of the world countries are uninvited. So what chance to have a base in syria? None

 

[smestarz]

My country flag is french. I don't understand why it appeared English.

Maybe a glitch or maybe it thought you are british,

It's forbiden in France the back payment. English governement less : remember the sell of EF to arabia : Prime minister said aboit that "it's a secret and an internal affair. Pass your way please".

There are many things that are Forbidden, but that still happen. No Indian defence deals took place without kickbacks. Also its forbidden for French citizens to have accounts in tax havens, and yet your president Hollande did accept that he had an account in a Tax haven... so Forbidden and yet it happens.
All one needs is a good accountant who says the kickbacks as "promotional expense" is it that difficult?

Spectra : It's the only system during a MACE xxx that was able to counter SA 10. During one of the first serious exercice between English EF and Rafale, some English pilots were surprised not to see Rafale on their radar..... It was just a small test, but now 1) English RAF doesn't want to play with Rafale 2) French team has full confidence in the system, they don't want to show more.

SA-10 is a late 70s system and you are happy that you beat that? English pilots are surprised at many things including the Su-30 MKI. But I guess they were more surprised by what Su-30 MKI than what Rafale did.
The reason why most countries avoid "play" with France is one example at Red flag 2007 when India came with their Su-30MKI. While rest of the combatants were performing their missions, the French in their Rafale were chasing Su-30 MKI (for no reason) to try and sniff the avionics for upgrading their database. So apparently the French do not take exercise for what it is but misuse it trying to build the databse for their avionics. So who the hell would "play" with you. Luckily for India we used the Su-30 MKI radar in training mode.

Absolutely no link between two crash and Spectra. It was a pilot mistake.

SPECTRA also includes Radar does it not? I mean the two pilots just aimed for each other and crashed?
It shows how French are hippocrites, when su-30 MKI crashes due to pilot error its problem with the plane, and when same happens with French plane, its definitely pilot error. Arent Rafale designed so that the two planes know where each other is and dont smash into each other? Maybe you can spend a few million dollars and develop this

DASS? a classical EW system, as EF is : classical.....

DASS is a classical EW system that works and Eurofighter is proud to say it works exactly as planned. The main difference between DASS and SPECTRA is that the French are trying to potray SPECTRA as something that is not. IF SPECTRA is so wonderful why did the french have to put an AESA? Even PESA can do the job if SPECTRA is so wonderful as you market it as? No?

 

[Blackwater]

Iam tired of hearing this news now [emoji31][emoji31][emoji31][emoji31][emoji84]

 

[sorcerer]

Sorry about this ! I am not here to make waves, rather to get some coverage about what ' s going on with the Rafale deal.

30 characters of pure unaltered bliss!!

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

What a turnabout in few days

Once we had no plan B
And looking at 126 + 63 + 45 rafales

Now we have

20+106 = 126 lcas
+
50 su30mki
+
60 fgfa
Orders firming up