Know Your 'Rafale'

[Immanuel]

ah ah ah.....

1200 kms? ability? what does it mean 'ability'?

Too easy to say "my Volkswagen golf 1 has the ability to reach 250km/h". Possible with a 300HP engine. But it doesn't have yet....

Ok numb nuts, why not open a dictionary to learn words you do not know?

 

[Immanuel]

What is Inside this 138 millions? Maybe 50% offset..... without offset (if it's the case, but probably) it's about 90 milions.

Well as said, offsets included, no Rafale is worth it when over 90 million.

 

[Immanuel]

source?
Don't spread news like that.
Remember all the test. Swiss is the best known....

Well why not you start with your biased French sources of which aircraft the Rafale tackled. Who cares about tests, what matters is dollar and cents, actually not a single Rafale deal hasn't come through regardless of where it supossedly performed better than the others in competitions, which clearly demonstrates that there is nothing wrong the whore per say, its the pimps who peddle it that ruin the experience.

 

[Immanuel]

It's not what we can see in the Swiss report. Rafale better in ALL mission.
ahead EF, and far ahead Gripen.

And what about EAU ? They found EF not suitable. Rafale was too costly, but never not suitable....

I know you have pain to your a** when speaking about Rafale, but it's the case : this bird is the best of its class. Now and tomorrow. Why? because it's easier to developp a product from one sole engineering office and to complain with one sole Customer need list, than from 4 engineering office anf 4 slightly different use.

And Dassault is the world leader in experience with Delta. EF is a nice first try, but only a try.

Best bird in class? Really Numb nuts says who? Now don't go posting French biased reports. Rafale is a decent 4.5 gen aircraft, it has its advantages and weaknesses. Its not worth the money being quoted, as said before come back with an offer of 90 million per bird with all bells and whistles included and its an OK deal, if not, well sell your wares else where. Also stop posting BS about Swis eval, it happened over 8 years ago, a lot has changed since then. Actually in this day, even the IAF's decision to acquire the Rafale based on 2010 evaluation of Rafale is outdated.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You just have to replace the first module of the engine (M88 has 21 module, all interchangeable without test).
West engine has a higher life than russian ones. It has a cost.

That is exactly the point

My costs = capex + opex +/maintainance

Russian = lower capex + higher maintainance ( again at a lower costs ) + OK opex

West = higher capex + lower maintainance ( again ata higher cost ) + higher / OK opex


In the long haul / in the end

Russian work out to be cheaper / cost effective

 

[warrior monk]

That is exactly the point

My costs = capex + opex +/maintainance

Russian = lower capex + higher maintainance ( again at a lower costs ) + OK opex

West = higher capex + lower maintainance ( again ata higher cost ) + higher / OK opex


In the long haul / in the end

Russian work out to be cheaper / cost effective

Saar ,
After the Pyrrhic performance in 1971 by IAF due to lack of DPSA especially the S-22s and mig-21s which are mostly OAS and interdiction aircraft we couldn't destroy enough PAF assets and our losses to Pakistan’s AD fighters and anti-aircraft guns were heavy after and only after 1971 dedicated DPSA ( Deep penetration strike aircraft ) was needed French Dassault Mirage F-1 was pitched but we choose Jags with 1 squardon then 45 then 100 + were manufactured by HAL over the next 20 years. Pakistan got so scared of these DPSAs that USA gave Pakistan F-16s at subsidized price to shoot these aircrafts down which forced India to buy Mirages.
Rafale will be procured over the next 15 yrs so the cost will be spread over 15 yrs and these will probably replace Jags as premier DPSAs though the number of Rafale is not known now .
106 DPSA jags upgraded to darin -3 will retire by 2030 we have already retired Mig-23s so Rafale will replace them.
So the fungibility argument of Su-30 MkI and Rafale itself does not arise as flankers are air superiority fighters and if we buy Russian fighters it will Mig -23 all over again .
AMCA will be a VLO DPSA but its not going to come before 2028 (optimistically). If we accelerate the development of AMCA then the whole fungibility argument holds.

 

[BON PLAN]

Ok numb nuts, why not open a dictionary to learn words you do not know?

Don't want to speak English like a german cow.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well why not you start with your biased French sources of which aircraft the Rafale tackled. Who cares about tests, what matters is dollar and cents, actually not a single Rafale deal hasn't come through regardless of where it supossedly performed better than the others in competitions, which clearly demonstrates that there is nothing wrong the whore per say, its the pimps who peddle it that ruin the experience.

Only your opinion. Not more. Ant it's not a lot...

 

[BON PLAN]

Best bird in class? Really Numb nuts says who? Now don't go posting French biased reports. Rafale is a decent 4.5 gen aircraft, it has its advantages and weaknesses. Its not worth the money being quoted, as said before come back with an offer of 90 million per bird with all bells and whistles included and its an OK deal, if not, well sell your wares else where. Also stop posting BS about Swis eval, it happened over 8 years ago, a lot has changed since then. Actually in this day, even the IAF's decision to acquire the Rafale based on 2010 evaluation of Rafale is outdated.

EF is excellent in some area. Rafale is very good in all aspect.

Until 2010, Rafale evolved more than EF : AESA radar for exemple.... Swiss Eval take only PESA radar.

 

[BON PLAN]

That is exactly the point

My costs = capex + opex +/maintainance

Russian = lower capex + higher maintainance ( again at a lower costs ) + OK opex

West = higher capex + lower maintainance ( again ata higher cost ) + higher / OK opex


In the long haul / in the end

Russian work out to be cheaper / cost effective

Life of a Russian plane ? 4000 hours max.

Life of Rafale? 8000 hours minimum. The equation is a little bit different no?

 

[smestarz]

Saar ,
After the Pyrrhic performance in 1971 by IAF due to lack of DPSA especially the S-22s and mig-21s which are mostly OAS and interdiction aircraft we couldn't destroy enough PAF assets and our losses to Pakistan’s AD fighters and anti-aircraft guns were heavy after and only after 1971 dedicated DPSA ( Deep penetration strike aircraft ) was needed French Dassault Mirage F-1 was pitched but we choose Jags with 1 squardon then 45 then 100 + were manufactured by HAL over the next 20 years. Pakistan got so scared of these DPSAs that USA gave Pakistan F-16s at subsidized price to shoot these aircrafts down which forced India to buy Mirages.
Rafale will be procured over the next 15 yrs so the cost will be spread over 15 yrs and these will probably replace Jags as premier DPSAs though the number of Rafale is not known now .
106 DPSA jags upgraded to darin -3 will retire by 2030 we have already retired Mig-23s so Rafale will replace them.
So the fungibility argument of Su-30 MkI and Rafale itself does not arise as flankers are air superiority fighters and if we buy Russian fighters it will Mig -23 all over again .
AMCA will be a VLO DPSA but its not going to come before 2028 (optimistically). If we accelerate the development of AMCA then the whole fungibility argument holds.

You are talking of 1971 and we are well 4 decades beyond that. Flankers are no longer Air superiority planes only. They handle strike as well. If you read the various lists of weapons that are qualifiedfor Su-30 MKI then there are not just A2A but also A2G weapons. Further in 2016 we shall be qualifying Brahmos on Su-30 MKI, the only plane in theworld tbe be able to carry a weapon of that Size and yes Brahmos is s stand off weapon. And even when carrying the Brahmos, it can carry enough A2A missiles that4 flankers can destroy a squadron of Pakistani planes.

IAF top brass always lacked vision even now. Strangely they are talking of weight (MEDIUM etc) when they should be talking about the capability and roles of the planes. Evolution of any platform is possible. Eurofighter and Su-30 MKI started as Air superiority planes as the countries making these planes had dedicated A2G strike planes namely Tornado and Su-24 respectively. But due to the economies getting smallers countries now want a multi role plane to handle various roles. But its not as difficult as having to design a completely different plane, but merely to get a good Targeting pod such as LITENING, and getting good A2G weapons and qualfiying them on the aircraft. One of the classic example of this is MiG-29K which has evloved from air superiority MiG-29 to MRCA and Carrier based MRCA. Still believe that Flankers are only air superiority?

 

[smestarz]

Life of a Russian plane ? 4000 hours max.

Life of Rafale? 8000 hours minimum. The equation is a little bit different no?

And outdated no? India is also upgrading Mirage 2000 but even after upgrade it is 3rd gen + and out dated, with even the F-16 that pakistan has beng able to shoot it down without a sweat. I have a balloon with me with its life possible to be even 20000 hrs. no need of any maintenance. So is IAF going to fly my ballooon?
You forget the most important point. CAPABILITY. Even with the 4000 hours how capable are the Su-30 MKI? They do outclass Rafale totally. We are buying planes for a war, and not to keep them in museum. So in a way Su-30 MKI with its heavy weight, high fuel capcity, ability to carry Brahmos and Russian missiles and 4000 hrs life is more capable than Rafale with 8000 hours life. The example is there in Syria where both planes are operating. The french used their Rafales for more than a year, the IS didnt even break a sweat. But with the Russians coming in, there is a big swing in the things on ground.
so in this way, either the Rafale was not really effective in Syria to make a "statement" else you have a pathetic leadership that was just "acting" in syria and actually just flying picnic sorties.

 

[smestarz]

EF is excellent in some area. Rafale is very good in all aspect.

Until 2010, Rafale evolved more than EF : AESA radar for exemple.... Swiss Eval take only PESA radar.

You better get over the swiss eval, Bt the way, yes Rafale has evolved a lot and Eurofighter was stuck due to need for the all the partners to agree, but now, The proverbial Rabbit Rafale has reached its evolution and nothing new coming soon. The Eurofighter tortoise is already moving towards bigger and better radar and few other things, so the race is on..

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Life of a Russian plane ? 4000 hours max.

Life of Rafale? 8000 hours minimum. The equation is a little bit different no?

In Indian case ?

Please Ch Ch the life of

Mig 21
Jaguars
Mirages
Su30mki

In iaf

Then give theoretical bs

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Saar ,
After the Pyrrhic performance in 1971 by IAF due to lack of DPSA especially the S-22s and mig-21s which are mostly OAS and interdiction aircraft we couldn't destroy enough PAF assets and our losses to Pakistan’s AD fighters and anti-aircraft guns were heavy after and only after 1971 dedicated DPSA ( Deep penetration strike aircraft ) was needed French Dassault Mirage F-1 was pitched but we choose Jags with 1 squardon then 45 then 100 + were manufactured by HAL over the next 20 years. Pakistan got so scared of these DPSAs that USA gave Pakistan F-16s at subsidized price to shoot these aircrafts down which forced India to buy Mirages.
Rafale will be procured over the next 15 yrs so the cost will be spread over 15 yrs and these will probably replace Jags as premier DPSAs though the number of Rafale is not known now .
106 DPSA jags upgraded to darin -3 will retire by 2030 we have already retired Mig-23s so Rafale will replace them.
So the fungibility argument of Su-30 MkI and Rafale itself does not arise as flankers are air superiority fighters and if we buy Russian fighters it will Mig -23 all over again .
AMCA will be a VLO DPSA but its not going to come before 2028 (optimistically). If we accelerate the development of AMCA then the whole fungibility argument holds.

Don't talk about 1971

Also if we did not have dpsa in 1971 or if we did not have aircraft ready to do bombing runs in kargil is due to the fact that the iaf top guys were sleeping on the job

 

[sorcerer]

India, France May Close Rafale Fighter Jet Deal at Rs 60,000 Crore in March

New Delhi: Indian Air Force is closer to arming its air power with 36 Rafale fighet jets from France in March.
As per a Hindustan Times report, India and France are expected to finally sign the inter-governmental agreement, including the commercial contract for the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation . The commercial contract is expected to be signed at Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India at the 2011 base price during the regime of the United Progressive Alliance.


The report, sourcing a top government official said that after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed, quoting the source, the report added.
Source>>

 

[Indx TechStyle]

So what is it going to be ?? Will India buy the damn jets or not ? I bought a stack of Thales stocks, just in case . Man. It is been a long walk, to get there. Dont you think it is time to get some cool firepower, like the Egyptians ?

Hey, you're a new member. Can you introduce yourself in members section.

 

[rohit b3]

India, France May Close Rafale Fighter Jet Deal at Rs 60,000 Crore in March

New Delhi: Indian Air Force is closer to arming its air power with 36 Rafale fighet jets from France in March.
As per a Hindustan Times report, India and France are expected to finally sign the inter-governmental agreement, including the commercial contract for the purchase of 36 Rafale multi-role fighters from Dassault Aviation . The commercial contract is expected to be signed at Rs 60,000 crore, less than what was offered by France to India at the 2011 base price during the regime of the United Progressive Alliance.


The report, sourcing a top government official said that after the initial price of 11.6 billion euros (Rs 85,000 crore) with 2015 as the base year, Dassault brought it down to 8 billion euros (Rs 65,000 crore) with 2011 being the base year for fixing the cost per fighter.

During Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France in April 2015, it was bilaterally decided that the cost of each fighter would be 10-20% less than what was being offered in the MMRCA project; we expect the jet manufacturer to further reduce price and bring it down by another 700-800 million euros before the contract is signed, quoting the source, the report added.
Source>>

Thats like 250 Million$ each, with all its accessories, but no tech transfer. Anyone has to say anything about this?

 

[garg_bharat]

What will you do with tech transfer? Our PSUs are unable to absorb the technology and build on it. Our PSUs are even unable to copy.

It is an expensive plane and is being bought for a specific justification of IAF. Thas all.

 

[BON PLAN]

And outdated no? India is also upgrading Mirage 2000 but even after upgrade it is 3rd gen + and out dated, with even the F-16 that pakistan has beng able to shoot it down without a sweat. I have a balloon with me with its life possible to be even 20000 hrs. no need of any maintenance. So is IAF going to fly my ballooon?
You forget the most important point. CAPABILITY. Even with the 4000 hours how capable are the Su-30 MKI? They do outclass Rafale totally. We are buying planes for a war, and not to keep them in museum. So in a way Su-30 MKI with its heavy weight, high fuel capcity, ability to carry Brahmos and Russian missiles and 4000 hrs life is more capable than Rafale with 8000 hours life. The example is there in Syria where both planes are operating. The french used their Rafales for more than a year, the IS didnt even break a sweat. But with the Russians coming in, there is a big swing in the things on ground.
so in this way, either the Rafale was not really effective in Syria to make a "statement" else you have a pathetic leadership that was just "acting" in syria and actually just flying picnic sorties.

Upgraded Mirage with Mica is a nice fighter. Absolutely able to outmatch F16 (which is a nice fighter also).
Do you think Indian are so stupid to modernized a finished fighter?
What's important is not only the airframe (but usefull), but the electronic Equipment. And Newer Mirage 2000 and Rafale are among the best. It's a french speciality the electonic support end environnement.
A huge radar (as in SU30) isn't enough. SU30 is a huge plane, with a huge radar signature.... Rafale less. far less...