Know Your 'Rafale'

[ace009]

Rafale-I maybe.

 

[trackwhack]

says the idiot who comes into my comments 9 out 10 times to troll with moronic replies.

says that guy who follows every post I make and makes idiotic snide comments. heh. How stupid do you insist on looking by claiming stuff like you did about ranges? You came in to insult me and the American bird but you insulted India in return. genius! ...not.

"Oh we Indians cant use F35 to attack China across our border because of its combat radius , while you americans can come all over from your neck of woods and attack them anywhere with it."- whack that track!

You should go home and lick your wounds son, The F-35 is just not gonna fly Indian colours. Its probably not gonna fly American colours either if your Air Force has its way.

The fact is, if the SFC wants planes, they will want it for one purpose only - To deliver nuclear weapons or Massive Oranance Bombs - In either case it is stupid to send those weapons on an F35 accompanied by refuelling aircraft. They will simply get shot out of the sky before it can reach its targets. That it why there is a specific type of aircraft for such purposes - They are called Bombers. If the SFC is going to procure a delivery mechanism, it will be bombers not a toy like the F 35 that can hardly reach its targets.

You can cuss and swear as much as you want, ultimately the American planes just did not make the cut. The Hornet was outdated and the F 35 is still not even flight worthy. There was never a thing as American Air Dominance. Russian planes were the big dogs always until avionics and subsystems started playing a big role. Even with that said the raptor has never been tested in combat so your superiority is still on paper and once the FGFA is out, there goes your superiority. The F 35 wont stand a chance, the FGFA will run circles round it and your fat bird wont know wtf is happening. Have fun selling it to your 'allies'

You can kiss NATO air dominance goodbye if the F 35 is ever inducted in numbers. But the USAF is not as stupid as you. So lets see what plane takes the F 35's place in the next 10 years.

 

[sukhish]

French got mirage deal, MICA deal and now even MMRCA. what the hell. it seems after russia it's french time. I though GoI wanted to get better diplomatic leverage by signing deal with four consortium countries.

 

[Armand2REP]

French got mirage deal, MICA deal and now even MMRCA. what the hell. it seems after russia it's french time. I though GoI wanted to get better diplomatic leverage by signing deal with four consortium countries.

Russia is no longer able to offer hi-tech solutions for India's security needs. The US/UK has history of sanctions so the only other option is France. We will see France grow to India's #1 supplier.

 

[ejazr]

Personally, I think at this high end level the Eurofighter, Rafale were both evenly matched

The main point seems that the fRench fighters were 5-6 million cheaper or about half a billion dollars cheaper in the overall deal.

The deal itself was suppose to be a strategic deal so in this sense, buying the American jets or the Eurofighter consortium jets would have been better because we would have improved our strategic leverage with either the US or four other European countries rather than just France. And we will be the only buyers of this fighter in the world as well.

Ofcourse, there might be some sweetners like more tech transfer provided by the French than other countries which may have made the deal more attractive. But from a strategic leverage point of view, a deal with the US or the Euro fighter would have been better.

 

[nitesh]

Air Force may get 126 Rafale fighter planes

The Rafale will eventually equip six squadrons of the IAF, each authorised 21 fighters. It is a delta-wing fighter with canards, which make it highly manoeuvrable and also allow it to land at speeds as low as 200 kmph. This makes it suitable for aircraft carrier operations, a key advantage over the Typhoon.

The fighter needs just 1,300-1,400 feet of runway to get airborne, an advantage in operating from air bases close to the border. Two Snecma M88 engines power the Rafale, allowing it to "supercruise" or fly at supersonic speeds without using afterburners. A key system is the Thales Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which is still under development. The Indian contract demands transfer of technology for the AESA radar.

The order of 126 Rafales caters only to the IAF's requirement. The Indian Navy, too, has expressed interest in the Rafale (amongst several other fighters) for its aircraft carrier fleet. While the INS Vikramaditya (formerly, the Russian Gorshkov) will deploy MiG-29K fighters, the under-construction Indigenous Aircraft Carrier, with another vessel to follow, will also require carrier-borne fighters. A naval version of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is close to flying. However, there is likely to be an additional requirement for heavy fighters like the Rafale for the naval fleet. Experts have forecast India would eventually acquire about 200 medium multi-role combat aircraft.

The IAF's evaluation and selection processes have won widespread acclaim from aviation watchers worldwide.

 

[one]

You should go home and lick your wounds son, The F-35 is just not gonna fly Indian colours. Its probably not gonna fly American colours either if your Air Force has its way.

The fact is, if the SFC wants planes, they will want it for one purpose only - To deliver nuclear weapons or Massive Oranance Bombs - In either case it is stupid to send those weapons on an F35 accompanied by refuelling aircraft. They will simply get shot out of the sky before it can reach its targets. That it why there is a specific type of aircraft for such purposes - They are called Bombers. If the SFC is going to procure a delivery mechanism, it will be bombers not a toy like the F 35 that can hardly reach its targets.

You can cuss and swear as much as you want, ultimately the American planes just did not make the cut. The Hornet was outdated and the F 35 is still not even flight worthy. There was never a thing as American Air Dominance. Russian planes were the big dogs always until avionics and subsystems started playing a big role. Even with that said the raptor has never been tested in combat so your superiority is still on paper and once the FGFA is out, there goes your superiority. The F 35 wont stand a chance, the FGFA will run circles round it and your fat bird wont know wtf is happening. Have fun selling it to your 'allies'

You can kiss NATO air dominance goodbye if the F 35 is ever inducted in numbers. But the USAF is not as stupid as you. So lets see what plane takes the F 35's place in the next 10 years.

Those were indeed harsh comments. If ever conventional war were to occur between Russia and US, i would put my money on US. You are right f35 is a dumb bird what makes you think US is going to use that dumb bird. They have drones, lasers and plenty of money to develop secret projects after the collapse of USSR who knew f117 was a bird until Desert Storm??

 

[nitesh]

The fun begins:

France swoops to rob UK of £13bn Indian jet contract | Mail Online

The contract was lost despite Government claims that the UK's £1billion aid package to India would help secure the order.

International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell said in December that Britain's controversial foreign aid programme was partly designed to win the bid. Britain is sending £280million to India for each of the next four years, even though the country has more billionaires than Britain and has its own space programme.

The aid package is 15 times larger than the £18million France sent to India in 2009.

Asked to justify Indian aid last year, Mr Mitchell said: 'It's a very important relationship. The focus is also about seeking to sell Typhoon.'

Last night Tory MP Peter Bone questioned the purpose of sending British aid to India at a time when cuts are being made at home. 'It just goes to show that it's a myth that by Britain becoming an aid superpower and doling billions of pounds out to countries like this exerts any influence whatsoever on the decisions made by those governments when purchasing equipment.

'We need to slash the international development money and invest the billions saved to help hard-pressed British families.'

A spokesman for UK Trade and Investments, the branch of the Government that promotes trade deals overseas, said: 'This does not rule out Typhoon for India.

'Today's decision is about who the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and therefore asked to enter into further negotiations.

'But the Indians have not yet awarded the contract. We continue to believe Eurofighter Typhoon provides the best capability today and into the future.'

 

[Mad Indian]

well your govt did not get that memo doc.

I never knew we were partners with china strategically. we may have chosen to ignore them or cajole them on occasion, but till last couple of decades we did not think much about china. and that too not in a postive way over the last two decades.

Btw Doc,regarding holding us to a standard?. Russians, whose GDP you about to surpass- did they always treat their partners well? atleast we did not fvuck up any NATO partners like russians did to some of their old soviet bloc amigos. So how you do figure us treating pakistan that was always a " cost " , a " beggar" to us- equates to how we will treat India.

1. Look I am not against US- India relation alright, so i dont think why i should think about the govt.

2. From the 1970s till the end of cold war China WAS a tacit US ally... Hell your Nixon fellow even encouraged the Chinese to open a third front during the 71 war...... you can google it if you want.....

3. Russians have always supported us traditionally and even now we dont have any competing goals... pray tell us one incident in which they abandaned us, atleast politically????? USA and India doesn't have any competing goals either but then again since when have you guys considered about others and their concerns... all you people think about is yourself.... Hell we cant even expect your backing if there is war between us and the Pakis.... And I am sure as hell when china no longer is your threat you wont be courting us this friendly .... I wont be surprised If you people start toying with Pakis against us if it were necessary if it would serve your purpose........ So why in the name of god should we trust you guys over the Ruskis?????

 

[Mad Indian]

Personally, I think at this high end level the Eurofighter, Rafale were both evenly matched

The main point seems that the fRench fighters were 5-6 million cheaper or about half a billion dollars cheaper in the overall deal.

The deal itself was suppose to be a strategic deal so in this sense, buying the American jets or the Eurofighter consortium jets would have been better because we would have improved our strategic leverage with either the US or four other European countries rather than just France. And we will be the only buyers of this fighter in the world as well.

Ofcourse, there might be some sweetners like more tech transfer provided by the French than other countries which may have made the deal more attractive. But from a strategic leverage point of view, a deal with the US or the Euro fighter would have been better.

No Bro I beg to differ , Unlike the french fighters selection, US fighters would have decreased the the leverage India might have on the USA... Can you name one country which is politically independant (rather than act like an american puppet) despite being dependant on USA for arms supply...???? I dont think you can because there is none...


Only benefit i see from choosing an american fighter is the psychological impact it could have had on our northern "Friends".... But that too relying on USA is as bone head as it can be.... So I think it was an excellent decision by the govt. to reject those american ones... Politicall freedom is very important for a country that aspires for a great power status......

 

[nitesh]

French jet Rafale bags $20bn IAF fighter order; India 'briefs' losing European countries - The Times of India

It will take another four to five months for the contract to be inked after the final round of commercial negotiations between the defence ministry and French aviation major Dassault, and the requisite final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security.

"The first MMRCA built in HAL should roll out in 2017-18. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end," said a source.

Both MoD and IAF are confident there are "enough safeguards'' built into the project, which includes "performance-based logistics'', to ensure India "gets the best machine, spares and product support".

I feel HAL will act as final assembler, with lot of things coming from private industries, hence this time line. Looks realistic

 

[Mad Indian]

This is utter rubbish , India govt has no such concerns. There are weapons packages that being brought directly and indirectly from the US. The size and scope of military cooperation and purchasing is growing . The intel sharing has been growing. Can you guys point me out to single concern in this regard espoused by your Def sec or PM?

while you are at it- show me a link to back up your claim about apache being a concern buy due to sanctions.

dude relax.... no one said not to buy weapons from you.... what we dont want is to rely on you for the stuff which might take years for completion and those which you can you to arm twist us any time you want.... see what happened to porkis .....

Also do you honestly think we would have got all the ToT from you guys as we get from the french...????

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Dassault Jumps Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid: Paris Mover - Businessweek

Dassault Jumps Most in 22 Years on Rafale India Bid



Jan. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA rose the most in more than 22 years, after it emerged as the lowest bidder to supply 126 fighter jets to the Indian Air Force and entered into exclusive negotiations.

Dassault shares rose more than 18 percent to 725 euros in Paris. A majority of the stock is held by the Dassault family, while European Aerospace, Defense & Space Co., the co-producer of the competing Typhoon, owns 46 percent.

"The announcement comes after a very high-level, equitable and transparent competition," French President Nicolas Sarkozy said in an e-mailed statement. "The Rafale was selected thanks to its cost effectiveness over the lifetime of the plane."

For Dassault Aviation, the sale to India of its Rafale combat jet, which hasn't won a single export order after 11 years of flying for the French military, would be mark a major victory. Over the last decade, Dassault has consistently lost out in competitions in countries including Singapore, South Korea, Morocco and Switzerland.

India's Defense Ministry will begin exclusive negotiations with Dassault within 10 to 15 days, a government official told reporters in New Delhi today. Talks will likely last for weeks, pushing the signing of a contract beyond the March 31 end of India's fiscal year, he said.

Indian law requires the government to negotiate a contract with the lowest-bidding vendor. Dassault is competing in the $11 billion contest against the Typhoon, the Eurofighter plane built by BAE Systems Plc, European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. and Italy's Finmeccanica Spa.

Indian Decision

Dassault is still in the running to win a contest in the United Arab Emirates, and remains in talks with Brazil about a contract.

Although it has been producing a plane a month for the French military, without export orders to help pay the cost of production, its funding burden falls entirely on France.

India shortlisted the Rafale and Eurofighter in April, when it rejected bids from U.S. manufacturers Lockheed Martin Corp. and Boeing Co., as well as Saab AB and OAO United Aircraft Corp. The country is buying the fighters to replace an aging fleet of Russian MiG-21s and Dassault Mirage 2000s.

Dassault had no immediate comment. The company recently lost a contest to Saab's Gripen in Switzerland, and Dassault has since sought to get back into the contest by offering a new commercial offer that includes fewer and modified Rafale jets.

 

[Singh]

This is utter rubbish , India govt has no such concerns. There are weapons packages that being brought directly and indirectly from the US. The size and scope of military cooperation and purchasing is growing . The intel sharing has been growing. Can you guys point me out to single concern in this regard espoused by your Def sec or PM?

while you are at it- show me a link to back up your claim about apache being a concern buy due to sanctions.

Indian establishment firmly believes that USA will never forsake Pakistan for India, ergo we can never expect USA to be on our side.

Personally, I think at this high end level the Eurofighter, Rafale were both evenly matched

The main point seems that the fRench fighters were 5-6 million cheaper or about half a billion dollars cheaper in the overall deal.

The deal itself was suppose to be a strategic deal so in this sense, buying the American jets or the Eurofighter consortium jets would have been better because we would have improved our strategic leverage with either the US or four other European countries rather than just France. And we will be the only buyers of this fighter in the world as well.

Ofcourse, there might be some sweetners like more tech transfer provided by the French than other countries which may have made the deal more attractive. But from a strategic leverage point of view, a deal with the US or the Euro fighter would have been better.

Absolutely, this deal wasn't about IAF getting crafts, it had all to do with India getting leverage.

However, France is in a desperate situation probably they gave us an offer that we couldn't refuse.

With Russia we always have Pak-fa, with Israel missiles, and a range of products from US.
But now how do we placate ze germans ?

 

[Singh]

Russia is no longer able to offer hi-tech solutions for India's security needs. The US/UK has history of sanctions so the only other option is France. We will see France grow to India's #1 supplier.

Pak-fa hello ?
Those sanctions were in the past, we were a third rate economic power at the time. In the future we'll be putting sanctions.

 

[Singh]

BAE Systems Union Says 'Nothing Signed' In India Jet Deal

A union leader at BAE Systems Warton said he was "not overly worried" that a French firm is the lowest bidder for an export deal worth $11bn (£6.3bn).

BAE Systems was hoping to partly assemble 126 Eurofighter Typhoon jets at Warton and Samlesbury in Lancashire for the Indian Air Force.

India's government said Dassault put in a lower bid for its Rafale jets, and it was in final talks with the firm.

Unite's Bob Holmes said it would be a "blow" but nothing had been signed yet.

BAE Systems said it had not been officially notified of the development.

A BAE Systems spokesman described the news as "speculation" and until they received confirmation by German company Cassidian, who is leading Eurofighter's bid, they would be unable to comment.

'Massive blow'

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony had earlier cautioned that this remained a "long process" and that no deal would be signed before the end of March.

Conservative MP for the Warton area, Mark Menzies, said "now is not the time to give up".

The Fylde MP said: "It is time to for all concerned to redouble their efforts. I know UK ministers and BAE have been working hard to help secure this deal and if there is an opportunity we must seize it.

"I am sure the four-nation consortium will continue to work together to explore every possible option and try everything possible to secure this vital contract."

Mr Holmes, convenor of Unite for manual workers at BAE Systems Warton, said: "They have gone with the cheaper bid but the Eurofighter has a far greater spec.

"It would be a massive blow if we didn't get the contract but there is a long way to go and nothing has been signed yet. This happens a lot in business - it is part of the process."

Mr Holmes said the contract would not affect pending job losses at Warton and Samlesbury. "Whether we get this contract or not - it will not impact on job cuts as these were already factored."

BAE Systems announced plans to cut 1,400 jobs in Lancashire and up to 900 at Brough in East Yorkshire in September.

However, the firm said in January that more than half the 1,400 jobs under threat at BAE Systems in Lancashire have been cut without compulsory redundancies.

The Typhoon is built by the German and Spanish branches of European aerospace giant EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

The Eurofighter lost out in December on an $8bn deal to supply jets to Japan.

BBC News - BAE Systems union says 'nothing signed' in India jet deal

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Of course. That's why the word modest was used in my post. We will get to it eventually. Once AMCA is made, we will obviously have to look at bigger options. I am guessing ADE may make an AMCA class UCAV while ADA may progress to a heavy UCAV in the class of MKI and PAKFA. Perhaps even a strategic bomber between the two.

Interesting French are advancing their Neuron UCAV program I wonder if some side deals may come from the Rafele victory?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Indian establishment firmly believes that USA will never forsake Pakistan for India, ergo we can never expect USA to be on our side.



Absolutely, this deal wasn't about IAF getting crafts, it had all to do with India getting leverage.

However, France is in a desperate situation probably they gave us an offer that we couldn't refuse.

With Russia we always have Pak-fa, with Israel missiles, and a range of products from US.
But now how do we placate ze germans ?

U-216 subs??

 

[Singh]

U-216 subs??

already getting french subs.

may be a few pzh 2000s ?

 

[Singh]

This deal has totally upset the European defence industry.
France has got much needed billions, they can continue to innovate for the forseeable future.
UK, Italy, Spain are in cutback mode; Germany wouldn't want to go it alone ?