Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

no doubt mig 35 is a very good machine but Russian spares and maintenance cost force me to go with F-16.

more over mig35 is still in trial phase not active and proved in any air force , not even Russian air force ,where F-16 is proven machine

Su-35S, I think it can be produced within the same lines used for Su-30 MKI, thus minmal investment, its just the avionics and the engine mainly

 

[smestarz]

Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely


source : NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely

No mainstream media reported this, there ws such "news" before also, still what remains is the price,

 

[Punya Pratap]

Haha....I had also said buy 80 jets in flyaway condition to equip 4 squads!! This is a last ditch effort to shore up the numbers of fighters but I am worried that its just a stop gap arrangement coz we do need replacement for 85 Mig 27 scheduled to be retired by 2016/2017.

My perspective is that if MoD is just going for 60 odd Rafales to replace the Bahadurs so that means that Tejas is destined to replace the 150 plus Mig 21 Bis/Bison that shall be progressively replaced by 2022!! I just pray and hope the rumours of a second production line for Tejas under Private Industry materialises soon!! Now that automatically means that the Jaguars (140 plus) will then be replaced by AMCA so the upgrades (re engining and all) has to be done at all costs coz Tejas wont be able to perform the DPSA role and AMCA will not come into service before 2025!! Also wondering that FGFA will then be replacement for the Mirages + Mig 29's or they are there to ensure that we reach the 42 Squadron mark. I think the latter is the case coz both Mirage and Mig 29's are going through MLU so they will be in service till atleast 2025.

Any takes @Kunal @ersakthivel et all!!

 

[Illusive]

Big News if true! Speaks volumes (nothing good) about our completely broken procurement apparatus and the true extent of the damage done by lungii clad fools' refusal to make any decisions!

Atleast, they came to a decision but the procurement system really needs a revision, IF we want to IMPORT weapon systems which may remain like that cause unlike our Navy, the airforce only like foreign maal.

But in the end it was sensible because FGFA is nowhere to be seen and our aircraft inventory is dwindling alarmingly.

PS: This news can be BS too, like all other times when they said deal nearly inked

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its a blog entry by a reputed defense journalist with its source, I assume this should be on all those Russian paid lobby channels soon ..

No mainstream media reported this, there ws such "news" before also, still what remains is the price,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Their is not much to add, @Punya Pratap ..

 

[smestarz]

Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely


source : NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely

It would in a way mean cancellation of RFP, so then in this case if the RFP is cancelled (as the procurement process is different) hence its not only Rafale but Eurofighter which has the chance in terms of the price.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Their is not much to add, @Punya Pratap ..

SO I assume you agree about the replacements that I illustrated!! I think going for G-to-G for 60 Rafales is going to cost about 40/45 K cr so that will free up 6o K cr and that I think shall go for FGFA!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I cannot say about EF-2000, As its not talked anywhere ..

But if procuring of Rafale fails, My thinking that EF-2000 may come into picture ..

It would in a way mean cancellation of RFP, so then in this case if the RFP is cancelled (as the procurement process is different) hence its not only Rafale but Eurofighter which has the chance in terms of the price.

========

The money can be distributed in many places including IAF`s AD systems and Radars ..

It can also go for Tejas MK2 and AMCA development ..

SO I assume you agree about the replacements that I illustrated!! I think going for G-to-G for 60 Rafales is going to cost about 40/45 K cr so that will free up 6o K cr and that I think shall go for FGFA!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

India 'expects' movement on Rafale jet deal; PM Modi begins Paris visit

India 'expects' movement on Rafale jet deal; PM Modi begins Paris visit
PTI, Paris| Updated: Apr 10, 2015 11:18 IST

Ahead of talks between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande, India Thursday said it expects "movement" on a proposal for setting up French nuclear reactors in Jaitapur in Maharashtra as well as Rafale fighter deal, both of which are pending for long.

These issues, along with trade, will be high on the agenda of substantive discussions between the two leaders amid India's keen interest to get participation of French companies in the 'Make in India' programme. Terrorism, against the backdrop of an attack here three months back, will also be discussed.

"India and France are strategic partners. In this context, the issues of civil nuclear and defence cooperation will be discussed. The issues you referred to will also be discussed. We expect movement on these issues," External Affairs Ministry spokesman Syed Akbaruddin said here when asked whether the two leaders will talk about Jaiitapur nuclear project and multi-billion dollar Rafale deal.

"There will be substantive discussions on defence and nuclear issues. Wait for the outcome," he added.

The spokesperson said India expects French companies to participate in 'Make in India' programme in the field of defence as well as civil nuclear energy, "where India can make some nuclear installations with France."

The Jaitapur project, where French company Areva is to set up six nuclear reactors with total power generation capacity of about 10,000 MW, is stuck for long because of differences over the cost of electricity to be generated.

Similarly, the deal to supply 126 Rafale fighter planes is also deadlocked because of differences over price.

Modi, who arrived in Paris on Thursday evening on a four-day visit, will also address two meetings with French CEOs – one on infrastructure and another on defence.

He will also have 'Naav pe Charcha' (chat on boat) with Hollande when they go for a cruise on Seine river which passes through Paris.

 

[Punya Pratap]

And to make matters even more interesting :

With Modi arriving in Paris, India and France set to push Rafale deal
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi| Updated: Apr 10, 2015 09:00 IST

India's multi-billion-dollar potential combat jet deal with preferred bidder Dassault Aviation is one of the many that India wants to implement. In this file photo, a Dassault Rafale fighter jet takes part in a flying display during the 49th Paris Air Show.

India is considering direct purchase of two squadrons of the French Rafale fighter plane to avoid the mire of price negotiations that the deal for 126 of these aircraft has been stuck in since January 2012.

The Dassault-manufactured Rafale fighter was on January 31, 2012 announced as the preferred bidder in the $13-billion contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). India is now seriously considering strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force (IAF) through the government-to-government (G2G) route on account of operational necessity. The tentative price tag of this deal would be over $4 billion.

New Delhi and Paris remain silent on the new proposal.

But, a senior official involved in the deal says the decision to bypass the 2004 MMRCA tender route - on the basis of which Rafale emerged in the lead - was taken as both Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) were unable to bridge price differences arising out of original request for proposals (RFP).

"After detailed analysis of the RFP and the laborious process followed by the previous government, it was evident that the entire deal could not be worked out with serious discrepancies in the negotiations that could lead to litigation in future," said a senior official.

The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

With the NDA government not willing to let the IAF fighter squadron strength dip into the critical zone in coming years, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President François Hollande will on Friday discuss ways to clinch the Rafale deal. "If the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries, then India could go for outright purchase of the 4.5 generation fighter through the French government route. The deal could be negotiated and signed in 2015 itself but numbers to be purchased depend on offered price. India has purchased the Lockheed Martin C-130 J Super Hercules, Boeing C-17 Globemaster and P-8I Poseidon aircraft from the US on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route," a senior official told Hindustan Times.

The IAF's sanctioned strength is 42 squadrons but it is currently operating only 34 with the Russian-origin Sukhoi 30 MKI being the teeth and the Soviet-era MiG-21 forming the long tail. Given the serviceability, repair and upgrade of these fighters and that eight MiG-21 squadrons are to be phased out in the next eight years, the IAF is set to be heavily depleted. It is in this context that the Modi government plans to have two or three Rafale squadrons to spearhead the IAF with the indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) replacing the MiG-21 in coming years.

The French government is expected to join the 'Make in India' initiative with an offer of two or three top defence technologies, and New Delhi is not adverse to Dassault floating a joint venture with a private company to build more Rafales in India. Similar offers of building fighters in India will also be made to other MMRCA competitors like the Saab Grippen, Boeing F-18, EADS Eurofighter, Russian MiG-35 and Lockheed Martin F-16 so that the IAF dominates the evolving security scenario in Asia.

Haha ... looks like the press is out for a Turkey Shoot... every one is shooting and speculating !! It is becoming very difficult to get an informed opinion from the Press these days and half the juornos are either paid media or nincompoops!! Anyways the last sentence that I have hi-lighted takes the cake !!!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

FLASH:Top sources confirm: India & France to announce brand-new deal for 3 squadrons (60-63 aircraft) of @Dassault_OnAir Rafale for the IAF.

Source : https://www.facebook.com/Livefist?fref=nf

==========
@sayareakd Sir, @ersakthivel

Only waiting for official news now, If true by Gov then its a very good deal at hand ..

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

New rafale deal is through. Under the new deal 60 fighter jets will bought from France.......

 

[smestarz]

I cannot say about EF-2000, As its not talked anywhere ..

But if procuring of Rafale fails, My thinking that EF-2000 may come into picture ..



========

The money can be distributed in many places including IAF`s AD systems and Radars ..

It can also go for Tejas MK2 and AMCA development ..

All it requires is a blog to spread such kind of information, from an "unnamed source"

Lets do an analysis. firstly if Dassault does not stick to the price, it is no longer the L1, And if India signs the deal at that high price, NDA will not come to power next general elections. Because there are always going to news and counter news about scams and kickbacks and why it was found important to sign with Rafale when Eurofighter which had also been declared as the top two planes be available at much better conditions and at cheaper price. Furthermore, Parikar will not take such a decision. He has already said that the Rafale deal is expensive, and since the RFP calls for certain terms and conditions, it cannot be part of RFP, thus the RFP gets cancelled and then its upto GoI to discuss which planes they want to buy, and here the cost becomes important, Germans would be willing to give discount which the french cant, tilting the balance to EF. but then Su-35S is much cheaper and would comply with MAKE IN INDIA policy as we already have line for MKI, it would be used for Su-35.

Thus going by this logic, Rafale is dead deal unless France / Dassault gives same price as in RFP or France highly discounts the planes which also seems unlikely.

 

[anoop_mig25]

Source : https://www.facebook.com/Livefist?fref=nf

==========
@sayareakd Sir, @ersakthivel

Only waiting for official news now, If true by Gov then its a very good deal at hand ..

what about technology transfer re i.r TOT and other what numbers would be manfactured in India by HAL ???????

wont Eurocopter can take court if Indian goi delays/scraps mmrca projects , as Eurocpoter would be next l1 and there should be discussion with them for buying Eurocopter as mmrca

 

[sob]

this is an emergency purchase. there will not be any TOT.

IMO there will be a new RFP.

 

[Zebra]

PM Modi arrives in France, India 'mulls direct purchase of Rafale jets' - The Times of India

TNN | Apr 10, 2015, 10.31 AM IST

NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Narendra Modi may reach a breakthrough on a long-delayed deal to buy Rafale fighter jets from France in talks with the French president on Friday, reports said.

India's government has been in negotiations since 2012 to buy 126 Rafale jets from France's Dassault Aviation, but the estimated $12 billion dollar deal has hit roadblocks over cost and assembly of the planes.

Reports said ahead of talks between Modi and French President Francois Hollande on Friday that the government was considering a direct purchase of a smaller number of jets to accelerate the acquisition and replace its ageing stock.

The Hindustan Times said the government was "seriously considering a strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force" due to "operational necessity", with further purchases later.

It quoted an unnamed source as saying a new deal could be worked out this year, with the exact number of planes depending on the final price......

 

[akshay m]

silver lining==40 tejas on order plus possible 66 to be ordered=106 tejas mk1:thumb:

India to sign major defence deal with France for 60 Rafale fighter jets for IAF

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to sign a major defence deal with France in order to boost India's military capabilities and infrastructure. A new deal to buy 60 Rafale fighter jets is likely to be announced in a joint press conference by Modi and French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.

Three squadrons of about 60 jets are to be bought in a new contract between the Government of India and Government of France. The deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft. The final signing of the MMRCA deal is yet to take place as India and France have some differences over the final amount.

India is keen to finish the acquisition before 2017 when a large number of old MiG squadrons will have to be phased out.India to sign major defence deal with France for 60 Rafale fighter jets for IAF - IBNLive

 

[mattster]

Finally.......some common sense prevails. Just have the French build the 60 jets and just buy them in fly away condition.
Next to the F-35, the Rafale is probably the best fighter out there.

The Russians and HAL can always be given other orders.

 

[anoop_mig25]

this is an emergency purchase. there will not be any TOT.

IMO there will be a new RFP.

IF ther is any TOT , then whats use ...I mean major ganer would be rafael/france/western word in it ....

IT would create template for other projects...

Just drag deal for 10 years and then India would directly buy instaed without TOT