Know Your 'Rafale'

[JBH22]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

F-16 block 60

My choice would be the Mig-35 but then IAF would be wholly dependent on Russian inventory.

Anyways let's trust IAF and bureaucrats decision in acquiring the best for India.

 

[niku456]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

My choice would be the Mig-35 but then IAF would be wholly dependent on Russian inventory.

Anyways let's trust IAF and bureaucrats decision in acquiring the best for India.

sir your point is worthy but russian birds came with TOT, we can modify them as our need as we done with mkis. It will also improve indo-russo relation.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

My choice would be the Mig-35 but then IAF would be wholly dependent on Russian inventory.

Anyways let's trust IAF and bureaucrats decision in acquiring the best for India.

no doubt mig 35 is a very good machine but Russian spares and maintenance cost force me to go with F-16.

more over mig35 is still in trial phase not active and proved in any air force , not even Russian air force ,where F-16 is proven machine

 

[Blackwater]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

sir, f-16 is potent plane but super hornet will be better but my personal choice is mig 35.

F-16 Viper versus F-18 Hornet - F-16 versus XYZ

 

[Apollyon]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Rafale deal is dead in water and hopefully will never come to fruition. Meanwhile IAF is moving ahead -

India has told Russia it wants deliveries of the FGFA to begin in 36 months after the main contract is inked, instead of the 94 months envisaged earlier, top defence sources said.

Rafale deadlock gives thrust to Russian 5th-gen jet project - The Times of India

 

[Apollyon]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

sir, f-16 is potent plane but super hornet will be better but my personal choice is mig 35.

kyo bhai ...zara hame bhi to batao. (Why? ...Plis to tell us too)

 

[Kharavela]

India draws bottom line for Rafale - The Times of India

I was overjoyed after reading this news on Defencenews.in, This deal needs to be cancelled.

Thanks to #ModiSarkar for directing HAL to increase production capacity of LCA to 16 units per year.

 

[sgarg]

The problem today is world is getting engulfed in conflict. The normal trade in military goods may not function in future. Only local production can ensure supplies in wartime.

Rafale is a very good fighter plane, but long term contracts in these times of trouble are dubious.

The speed with which dominoes are falling in the middle-east; and the way conflict has started in Ukraine are reminders that India needs to choose its friends now. We are no longer living in lala land.

 

[SANITY]

The problem today is world is getting engulfed in conflict. The normal trade in military goods may not function in future. Only local production can ensure supplies in wartime.

Rafale is a very good fighter plane, but long term contracts in these times of trouble are dubious.

The speed with which dominoes are falling in the middle-east; and the way conflict has started in Ukraine are reminders that India needs to choose its friends now. We are no longer living in lala land.

And who would be our allies? What is lala land?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

French or Russian are alike, Don`t brand corporate firms as friends ..

At the end of the day, We stand alone always, Better Get on our feet ..

The speed with which dominoes are falling in the middle-east; and the way conflict has started in Ukraine are reminders that India needs to choose its friends now. We are no longer living in lala land.

 

[sorcerer]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

India Draws Bottom Line, Warns Rafale

India will not ink the mega $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters till France agrees to stick to its original pricing, which led its Rafale fighter to defeat the Eurofighter Typhoon in commercial evaluation over three years ago.

This is India's "bottom line" on which the outcome of long-drawn final negotiations with French aviation major Dassault now hinges, even as Prime Minister Narendra Modi is all set to leave for France on Thursday as part of his three-nation tour, reports TNN.

"Dassault has to adhere to its earlier commitments. No Indian government can finalize such a major project if the L-1 (lowest bidder) pricing is changed"¦ it can be a deal-breaker despite political pressure from France," said a top source.


As first reported by TOI, the defence ministry is upset with Dassault's attempt to "change the price line" because it will substantially jack up the production cost of the 108 Rafales to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in India after the first 18 are imported.

As per Dassault's costing, there is now a "big jump in the man-hours needed" for each jet to be produced by HAL after transfer of technology. In effect, each jet will now cost much more than what was originally projected.

"Hypothetically, if the cost of each jet goes up by around Rs 30-40 crore, we will then be looking at a hike of Rs 3,240-Rs 4,320 crore for the 108 jets to be made here. Dassault should relent, become fully compliant to the RFP (request for proposal) and stand 100% by its original offer. It can live with a slightly lesser profit margin," said the source.

There is, however, progress on the other major stumbling block. A mechanism is being evolved to ensure there are no penalties or liquidity damages imposed on Dassault if HAL fails to deliver as per specified timelines, sources said.


The voluminous MMRCA contract was almost 90% done, with technology transfer, offsets and other issues as well as the inter-governmental agreement all ready, when pricing and guarantee issues stalled negotiations almost a year ago.

With continuing delay in finalization of the MMRCA project and IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons (14 of them made of old MiG-21s and MiG-27s), India is also trying to fast-track the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft project with Russia, as reported by TOI earlier.

India has told Russia it wants deliveries of the FGFA to begin 36 months after the main contract is inked, instead of the 94 months envisaged earlier. For this, India is ready to switch from the original co-development and co-production plan to direct acquisition of an initial lot followed by co-production. India will spend around $25 billion on the FGFA project if eventually 127 such fighters as planned.

Read more: India Draws Bottom Line, Warns Rafale / Sputnik India English - News, Opinion, Radio

 

[niku456]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

F-16 Viper versus F-18 Hornet - F-16 versus XYZ

thanks sir, with its greater pay load capacity and range SH is better for ground attack and fleet escourt. SV is superior in dogfight and agility. With superior radar SH can get BVR edge over SV.

 

[ersakthivel]

C'est la vie | The Asian Age

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has, however, made his position clear. The terms of the Indian Air Force tender require the French company to guarantee the 108 fighters that HAL would build in India.
Mr Parrikar said, "I have told Dassault to send a person to work out the differences. You have to be clear that, irrespective of anything, the tender's terms have to be met. They cannot be diluted."

Then there is the question of money. The initial estimation of $12 billion has now escalated to over $22 billion.

The defence minister has publicly questioned the high cost of the Rafale by rhetorically asking as to how he can justify the purchase of a fighter that costs twice as much as the Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter being produced in India.

To add to Dassault's discomfiture, Mr Parrikar has also disclosed that the highly rated Su-30MKI costs Rs 358 crore each compared to the `700 crore price tag for the Rafale.

This means two Su-30s could be secured for the price of a single Rafale. Many knowledgeable people in the military tend to believe that the Su-30 is a more capable aircraft and certainly represents better value for money.

The IAF has an order of 272 of these fighter planes and they are now manufactured by HAL and the Russians have already offered an upgrade to make Su-30 even more potent.

There are others in the influential bureaucracy who are not entirely enamoured of French partnerships given the manner in which the project to manufacture six Scorpene-class submarines has meandered along with huge implicit price escalations.

The Scorpene deal is with the DCNS, a French-law public limited company in which the French state holds a 64 per cent stake, private weapons maker Thales 35 per cent and the personnel a 1 per cent stake. It is the heir to Direction des Constructions et Armes Navales (DCAN).


In 2005, the Indian Navy ordered six Scorpene submarines, all to be built at the ministry of defence- owned Mazagon dock and elsewhere, with the last two to be fitted with an Indian air-independent propulsion (AIP) module.

The first India-made Scorpene has just been floated, 12 years behind schedule. There is also a follow-on requirement of six submarines, for which DCNS plans to offer a larger version of the submarine to the Indian Navy.India has just floated a requirement for six new submarines to replenish its depleting fleet, but other companies too will be in the fray.

 

[sgarg]

And who would be our allies? What is lala land?

Our military lives in assumption that military goods can be imported like commercial goods. This assumption is patently false. Military goods are mostly tightly controlled and imports make sense ONLY UNDER specific treaties of mutual defence.

The biggest issue is support-ability in times of war, specially in long drawn conflict.

It will be a disaster if the country finds very expensive imported equipment inoperable in the times of strife.

Who are friends? Who has signed friendship treaties or mutual defence treaties with India?

41 years after the Indo-Soviet Friendship Treaty | Russia & India Report

 

[sgarg]

France and America have signed no defence treaties with India AND ARE UNDER NO COMPULSIONS to support India.

If a war with Pakistan breaks out, it is very likely that sanctions will be imposed on India just like Russia is facing today.

It is NOT HARD to see who is a friend. India finds itself in the same situation as China - that is - there is a mismatch with USA at military level despite match at the economic level.

Best is to promote domestic industries. However if imports are to be made for immediate needs, these must be with clear path to localization.

 

[halloweene]

BTW, there will be no announcement during PM Modi visit. Politeness....

 

[NLD]

Have read opinions of many, read many news about it, read about its ups and downs, still not getting why deal is not signed or if it shouldnt be why it is not cancelled"¦
Upto wt i think is even Air Marshal is not interested in RAFALE but interested in MMRCA as he had said we need mmrca but it is not compulsary tat it should be rafale.

Then what is that mod is waiting for?
What is that strong point Mod has with it that it still waiting for the deal"¦

If not then is their any difficulty in cancelling a deal"¦
I mean will their be any penalty to India if they cancel the deal?

Can any one pls give clarity on this??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely

India is likely to buy about 60 Rafale combat jets from Dassault Aviation instead of 126 aircraft proposed in the original request for proposal (RFP) meant to be procured in under the process that began some eight years ago, highly placed sources told this writer.

The decision to buy nearly three and a half squadrons (between 60-63 aircraft) of Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was taken at the highest political level hours before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarked on his three-nation tour on Thursday, the sources added. Given the huge financial and operational implication, the government thought it prudent to take a strategic decision rather than leave it to a bureaucratic process.

The French are likely to be told of this decision by the Prime Minister himself when he meets President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday.

Under the new proposal, the entire process for procuring 126 combat jets would be scrapped, sources revealed. A new G-to-G (government-to-government) contract is likely to be negotiated between New Delhi and Paris to buy around 60 Rafale jets in flyaway condition from France.



According to top sources, this approach is being adopted for two primary reasons:

1 > it is imperative that the IAF gets these jets as soon as possible in view of the fast depleting numbers and

2 > Because the impasse in the price negotiations. The entire procurement procedure for the combat jets has turned into a chaotic process thanks to the indecision on part of the political leadership in the previous regime and some loopholes in the negotiations itself making it impossible for the government to arrive at a satisfactory solution.



India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.

source : NewsWarrior: Big breakthrough in Rafale deal likely

 

[uoftotaku]

Big News if true! Speaks volumes (nothing good) about our completely broken procurement apparatus and the true extent of the damage done by lungii clad fools' refusal to make any decisions!

 

[sgarg]

People who laugh at me MUST RECALL I mentioned the number 60 on this forum.