Know Your 'Rafale'

[ersakthivel]

Source : https://www.facebook.com/Livefist?fref=nf

==========
@sayareakd Sir, @ersakthivel

Only waiting for official news now, If true by Gov then its a very good deal at hand ..

Any way payload wise and range wise rafale is a good fit for IAf in niche roles.

But buying close to 200 with huge forex bleed is simply irresponsible especially with french hiking prices after financial bids lapsed in 2012(or purposefully allowed to lapse for bribes!!!) So the Modi govt is shrewdly getting out of the minefield called MMRCA and simply bargaining with french for the price.

Dumping MMRCA negotiations is the right thing to do, because the MMRCA contract allows us no leeway to negotiate prices once rafale was short listed on before 2012 price!!!(one of the world's strangest contract negotiation routes!!!)

So all the claims that IAF just can't do without 126+ future 60 rafales are quietly being thrown out of the window.

And 60 rafales will hardly tilt the balance in any future indo-china air war!!!

if at all we have pursued a twin seat tejas variant simultaneously with enough man power we would not have to bleed close to one lakh crores(cost mentioned as 40000 to 50000 crores are an eyewash, as it doesnot include lifecycle cost and updates, weapons).

Buying a few squadrons of T-50 before FGFA takes off would have been much useful , because in air to air or air to ground simply rafale will be no match for T-50 or FGFA.

With financial crisis russians were more than ready to sell a few off the shelf and it would have included a lot of parts commonality with FGFA.

IAf Retd Air marshal was vehemently opposed to any cancellation of MMRCA negotiations in his reply to bharath karnard in the following piece,

A Rafale Fable - The New Indian Express

A bit of unsolicited advice for the defence minister; he can close down the Indian Air Force's (IAF) directorate of air staff requirements at Air Headquarters as also the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment in Bangalore. The former decides IAF's operational requirements in terms of equipment and the latter, with its trained flight test aircrew and technical officers, evaluates aircraft and other equipment that come for trials before induction into the IAF.

straight 60 rafale buy proves that the path forwarded by directorate of air staff requirements at Air Headquarters by buying 126 + 60 in future option can be fulfilled by just 60 rafales and rest Su-30 MKis and tejas combo

These are costly set-ups but are a waste, for there are armchair "experts" who know better and have reached such heights of competence that they are suggesting sacking of the Air Chief for a supposed shortfall of professional acumen (not having a Plan B, in case the Rafale contract does not take place)! Bharat Karnad's "Terminate the Rafale Deal" (TNIE, March 06, 2014) is another fable from the quiver of an aviation non professional; in normal course these views would have been ignored, but having been carried to lakhs of Indians by this esteemed newspaper, the facts need to be set straight.

Fingers are now being raised on the selection by IAF flight test experts (super specialists in medical terms) questioning the "fighting quality of the aircraft". The selection process is explicitly enumerated in the Defence Procurement Procedure and was followed to the T. Six aircraft from five countries were put through a rigorous evaluation in the Indian environment over a period of two years and the evaluation report submitted to the government; that not a squeak against the evaluation was heard is testimony to the professionalism of the valuation. But now, as the government's decision is near (as one hopes it is), the doubting Thomases have got into their usual game of introducing red herrings—ever wondered why these things happen whenever a big project of any wing of the armed forces is nearing fruition?

Questions have also been raised on the integrity and professional competence of the Price Negotiation Committees (PNC) of the ministry of defence (MoD) for their supposed inability to demand our monies' worth from Marcel Dassault. If they are incompetent,

this straight 60 rafale buy proves that MMRCA negotiations were scandalous and incompetent for allowing financial bids to lapse in 2012 , putting the new govt in an awkward negotiating position!!!

because the "negotiate only with L1 clause has let french free to hike the prices under various excuses like HAL is incompetent or production cost in india is high!!!!"

So now someone must answer why negotiations could not be concluded before 2012 when financial bid was allowed to lapse!!!!

then this trait would be true for a Rafale contract as well as for a Sukhoi or any buy of the services, in which case we are doomed as a nation! That contract discussions have taken this long attests to the fact that the MoD is ensuring that India gets its due. A techno-financial angle has been introduced in the debate stating that it would be better to acquire more numbers of cheaper Su-30s and Tejas Mk2s for the same monies as the 126 Rafales. This only speaks volumes of the professional ignorance of the analyst.

So this 60 straight rafale buy proves that the load of the terminated extra 60 rafales are going to be borne out by SU-30 MKI and tejas combo. So bharath karnard and various analysts who have been arguing on these lines are proved correct!!!

A nation evaluates its threats and from that flows the capability required by the services to counter them. There is no aircraft that can alone perform all the tasks (how one wishes it was so) that come the Air Force's way and from that flows selection of different role-based acquisitions. The Su-30 is an air dominance fighter while the Rafale is a medium multi-role aircraft; one can only complement the other and not be a replacement for it.

Now the talk of just 60 rafale fighter proves the above set of statements as a lie, because the role of the terminated 60 plus future option of buying another 60 rafales is going to be borne out by Su-30 MKI and tejas and nothing else in the immediate future!!![

The capabilities of the two are vastly different. While both have similar external carriage capacity, the flight range of the Rafale is almost three times that of the Su-30 (with similar external load and without air-to-air refueling).

The above statement is patently wrong!!! No way in the world can a rafale have thrice the range of Su-30 MKI with similar external load and without air-to-air refueling!!!

The Rafale has the active electronically scanned array radar while the Su-30 has one of older technology.

IAf has never seen the rafale ASEA radar-Metero Missile combo in action in any validation tests!!! Russians are also offering an ASEA radar for Su-30 MKI as an upgrade!!!

The survivability of the Rafale is much better due its state-of-the-art electronic warfare suite. The Sukhoi requires two aircrews while the Rafale is a single-pilot aircraft—hence the training requirements would more than double in case of the Sukhoi, a huge task in itself.

Rafale's DRFM based Spectra suit like features can be included in Su-30 MKI as well in upgrades making it also more survivable in future.
Also if training requirements for two pilots will sap so much of resources why is IAf insisting on two pilot FGFA which too will do the same strike roles?(Despite plea by Russians that two pilot arrangement will reduce stealth!!!)

The Rafale's wingspan is small and it fits into existing blast pens on our airfields while the Sukhoi requires costly bigger ones to be constructed. The differences are many but each aircraft has a unique place in the war fighting calculus of the IAF. The catchword is "role"; an air force decides what are the roles that it needs to perform and accordingly recommends the proposal that meets the qualitative requirements. The IAF has done just that and would perform its role with the equipment it possesses when the balloon goes up—it's the only Plan, Plan A that it has. A Plan B? What's that?

Actually the straight 60 rafale buy for urgent IAF needs and letting Su-30 MKI and tejas mk1+mk2 combo to bear the true MMRCA load that was so vehemently contested by the Air marshal that is now being put into play,is the plan B

Now to the really strange issue raised by the "analyst" of Rafales being procured by Qatar, being flown by Pakistani pilots and being upgraded by Saudi money and being transferred to China for a strip evaluation such that when IAF Rafales get into a fight with the Chinese, their air defence system would shoot them out of the sky! Incidentally, the Chinese have the Su-30 MKK in their inventory and are going to get the Su-35 very soon; one wonders how the Su-30 MKI would be a total mystery for them and escape their air defence but the Rafale would not?

The reverse is true. Qatari rafales will be identical to IAf rafales in all respect so that PAF pilots will learn more about them. But IAF SU-30 MKI has unique indian avionics that no chinese pilot can know. And with time SU-30 MKI's indigenous content will increase only further . But this straight 60 rafale buy provides no customization for IAf so that PAF pilots wont know what are the details of IAf rafale's Spectra Ew suit.

Does the analyst realise that he is passing this judgment on a professional outfit like the IAF? And he adds that the French ""¦won't allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range". The Brahmos is yet to fly on the Su-30 and the Rafale is yet to come in to IAF; one wonders why Dassault has refused permission for mounting the Brahmos on the Rafale without the IAF even asking for it?

Readers of this newspaper can rest assured that their Air Force is held in high esteem for its professionalism in choosing its equipment and using it in war. Sleep well dear countrymen and women—our skies are safe and will remain so!

So all the arguments advanced by Air marshal Mohan bahadur are of dubious nature.thats what is proved by just 60 rafale buys. With just 60 in number rafale is never going to be the silver bullet that the Airmarshal made it out to be.

Strange are the ways of IA and IAF!!!!

i posted the link to this page in #rafale hash tag on twitter.Lets see what is the reaction from Only rafale (very close to becoming Only Vimal!!!)Guys!!!

 

[Prometheus]

French or Russian are alike, Don`t brand corporate firms as friends ..

At the end of the day, We stand alone always, Better Get on our feet ..

Kunal, be that as it may, Russia today is the only country that provides alternatives to US weaponry. It is the only country that supports and speaks out for weaker/ 3rd world countries. The US is systematically attacking/ invading countries that do buy Russian weapons, and this is not accidental. Unfortunately for Russia, most of its buyers are poorer/weaker countries and cant buy the latest equipment, that Russia has to offer. Neither do they have the kinda of budget that can better train their pilots / soldiers nor to equip them in sufficient numbers with weaponry. So they always fall like a pack of cards. If Russia collapses, get ready for a lifetime of blackmail to pay whatever price the US demands for weaponry,and there would be no alternative then!.

And its not restricted to weaponry only, foreign policy, economic policy will all be dictated by the US and the world will have to accept it, because there is really no way to counter it. And the US will never ever again allow a country to arise, that could challenge it, like Russia does. This is the last opportunity to have a free world. . France and Israel are so dependent on the US tech that they wouldn't /cant do any thing to upset the US. If we keep having a myopic view on foreign policy we will be doomed. After Russia, China will be next, and then India. one at a time. We cannot counter the US unless all of these three giants unite.

 

[salute]

Finally.......some common sense prevails. Just have the French build the 60 jets and just buy them in fly away condition.

useless deal its bullsh*t deal.

Next to the F-35, the Rafale is probably the best fighter out there.

expensive ponies.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Let me clear the Air, I do not care about Russia or any-other, I am Indian centric and i only care about my people, my flag & my county ..

To add more, Russian system fails a lot in our inventory, Let it be SAM, Tank Shells or tank themselves or basic Rifle ammunition, Personally ..

I have more faith in our own design weapons than any other, We can live with our own systems and fight with it, We do need any necessary assistance from foreign firms at higher price tag with low preform ace ..

I dislike talking about some other country politics when our own are not capable to understand their own good, We have to stand on you own feet and think know about ourselves before venturing out ..

Russian are nothing but another blood thirsty merchants, They can go to any level to sell their products here, Our own organizations here are their competitors and they never let them grown instead crushed them like in Indra`s days and still trying ..

Russian lobby better stay off from our defense development and procurement, Their assistance in Civil sector is most welcome ..

@ersakthivel

========

Their are many holes in you sentence, Check out Libya, Syria and Iraq`s Inventory list first ..

I rest my case ..

Kunal, be that as it may, Russia today is the only country that provides alternatives to US weaponry. It is the only country that supports and speaks out for weaker/ 3rd world countries. The US is systematically attacking/ invading countries that do buy Russian weapons, and this is not accidental. Unfortunately for Russia, most of its buyers are poorer/weaker countries and cant buy the latest equipment,

 

[power_monger]

Govt negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France for $7.65 billion: Le Monde - Business Today

So 1 raffale = 752 crore and that too without TOT..pretty dissapointing...

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Ofcourse Russian deal is good..but Russia has larger problems at hand now politically and we have 5 billion locked up in T-50(???).
Cant blame them Russians cuz its their survival that could be in question.

I would say if India can foot the bill on Rafale..lets get it with the agreed terms. We need flying contraptions in air for sure.

we havent paid those 5 billion yet

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Kunal, be that as it may, Russia today is the only country that provides alternatives to US weaponry. It is the only country that supports and speaks out for weaker/ 3rd world countries. The US is systematically attacking/ invading countries that do buy Russian weapons, and this is not accidental. Unfortunately for Russia, most of its buyers are poorer/weaker countries and cant buy the latest equipment, that Russia has to offer. Neither do they have the kinda of budget that can better train their pilots / soldiers nor to equip them in sufficient numbers with weaponry. So they always fall like a pack of cards. If Russia collapses, get ready for a lifetime of blackmail to pay whatever price the US demands for weaponry,and there would be no alternative then!.

And its not restricted to weaponry only, foreign policy, economic policy will all be dictated by the US and the world will have to accept it, because there is really no way to counter it. And the US will never ever again allow a country to arise, that could challenge it, like Russia does. This is the last opportunity to have a free world. . France and Israel are so dependent on the US tech that they wouldn't /cant do any thing to upset the US. If we keep having a myopic view on foreign policy we will be doomed. After Russia, China will be next, and then India. one at a time. We cannot counter the US unless all of these three giants unite.

China is already filling up that role and would do more so in future as it can afford to supply regular arms. India on the other hand needs to catch up on the big defence market.

 

[Zebra]

Govt negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France for $7.65 billion: Le Monde - Business Today

So 1 raffale = 752 crore and that too without TOT..pretty dissapointing...

126 Rafale jets at the price of nearly $15 billions with ToT and (108 aircrafts) made in India.

Compare it with 63 Rafale jets at the price of $7.65 billions, off the self buy and no news for ToT.

 

[salute]

Govt negotiating to buy 63 Rafale jets from France for $7.65 billion: Le Monde - Business Today

So 1 raffale = 752 crore and that too without TOT..pretty dissapointing...

they should had canceled the whole deal.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Ok guys lets put our heads together and look at the larger picture that will be IAF's inventory post all the retirements by the 14th Plan:

Su MKI 272 4.5th Gen Air Dominance
FGFA 144 5th Gen Air Dominance
AMCA 144 5th Gen Medium Role Striker
Rafale 63 4.5th Gen Medium Role Striker
Tejas 1&2 150 plus 4.5th Gen Interceptor more like the workhorse

That makes your envisioned 42 Squadrons numbers and hopefully that is what shall happen other wise I am reading all this wrong

 

[sathya]

Real jacked up price of original mmrca deal will come later on.
Compared to 4 billion $ mirage upgrade pacakage this Rafael deal is better..much better..

What version we will get needs to be seen..

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Will take legal recourse if govt goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy

BJP leader Subramanian Swamy Friday threatened to take legal recourse if government went ahead with Rafale jet deal with France, saying there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.

Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

Modi is currently in France and will hold comprehensive talks with the French leadership during which the Rafale deal is likely to figure.

"There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.

"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.

The statement further said that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault.

"It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.

Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.

While initially, the deal was expected to be around USD 10 billion, it is now estimated to be over USD 20 billion.

Will take legal recourse if govt goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy | idrw.org

 

[salute]

Ok guys lets put our heads together and look at the larger picture that will be IAF's inventory post all the retirements by the 14th Plan:

Su MKI 272 4.5th Gen Air Dominance
FGFA 144 5th Gen Air Dominance
AMCA 144 5th Gen Medium Role Striker
Rafale 63 4.5th Gen Medium Role Striker
Tejas 1&2 150 plus 4.5th Gen Interceptor more like the workhorse

That makes your envisioned 42 Squadrons numbers and hopefully that is what shall happen other wise I am reading all this wrong

fgfa and amca are nonexistent right now,welcome to dfi.

 

[ersakthivel]

Let me clear the Air, I do not care about Russia or any-other, I am Indian centric and i only care about my people, my flag & my county ..

To add more, Russian system fails a lot in our inventory, Let it be SAM, Tank Shells or tank themselves or basic Rifle ammunition, Personally ..

I have more faith in our own design weapons than any other, We can live with our own systems and fight with it, We do need any necessary assistance from foreign firms at higher price tag with low preform ace ..

I dislike talking about some other country politics when our own are not capable to understand their own good, We have to stand on you own feet and think know about ourselves before venturing out ..

Russian are nothing but another blood thirsty merchants, They can go to any level to sell their products here, Our own organizations here are their competitors and they never let them grown instead crushed them like in Indra`s days and still trying ..

Russian lobby better stay off from our defense development and procurement, Their assistance in Civil sector is most welcome ..

@ersakthivel

========

Their are many holes in you sentence, Check out Libya, Syria and Iraq`s Inventory list first ..

I rest my case ..

ofcourse The Russians are not interested in the development of indigenous industry and wil try all means at their disposal to stall it by pushing their wares.

Problem is MMRCA deal was so badly structured and negotiated,

When they invited tenders , they specified the date at which the financial bids were to expire,

Then what prompted GOI to drag on the negotiation beyond the expiry of financial bids?

Didn't IAF know that only Rafale and typhoon satisfy their requirement earlier?

Why were they wasting time extensively testing F-16, F-18 and gripen when we have a full blown tejas program?

Don't they know that their specs will be much closer to tejas mk2 ?

they could easily have avoided wasting time on them and could have done a faster evaluation of rafale and typhoon.

For a tender floated on 2004 they finish evaluation years later and the shoddy UPA govt pointedly let the financial deal expire!!!,With Saint Antony at the helm UPA was never in a hurry!!!

It is for this simple reason that we have failed to get local production, some kind of TOT on rafale which is a scam as big as 2G and coal gate.



Couldn't they conclude their evaluation earlier and declare the winner earlier so that GOI had enough time to negotiate?

Why did GOI structure MMRCA in such a way , that L1 can drag negotiations forever with no fear of parallel negotiations with L2?

Why the tender rules was framed in such a way that allowed Dassault to hold HAL & GOI to ransom?

Now dassault is going to walk away with billions of dollars without even transferring screw driver TOT.

And whatever lower price they quote now, they will rip us off in future spares and update pricing.

If NDA loses power and congress comes back again IAF is going to walk up to GOI and say we need more rafales after all the 60 are purchased by now.

SO we are going to buy additional rafales at much higher cost with no hope of even nominal sovergin control over any item in rafale.

So what happens is IAF which could easily have had more than 6 squadrons of tejas +Su-30 MKI combined will be having just 3 squadrons of rafale at much higher price.

And do you expect france to stand up to chinese pressure a decade down the line if any indo-china war occurs?

I really dont think French will release critical spares just for the sake of 60 rafales , opposed to huge trillion GDP chinese market. Recent mistral case is an example.

For me this rafale buy looks as worse as the T-90 buy.

And with simultaneous induction of both rafale and FGFA , we can kiss good bye to the hope of any sizable Tejas mk1+mk2 fleet.

And there will certainly be no second tejas production line ever.

All governments talk tall, but when it comes to defence budget allocation year on year increase is hardly going to be above ten percent!!!

So twenty years down the line IAF will have less than 10 percent of its fleet with Indian made fighters that are free of control from foreigner governments.IAF will be going in exactly the opposite direction of NAVY in this count.

And the same saga will once again be repeated with respect to AMCA vs FGFA.

 

[ersakthivel]

Will take legal recourse if govt goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy

BJP leader Subramanian Swamy Friday threatened to take legal recourse if government went ahead with Rafale jet deal with France, saying there were shortcomings in the fighter aircraft.

Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

Modi is currently in France and will hold comprehensive talks with the French leadership during which the Rafale deal is likely to figure.

"There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.

"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.

The statement further said that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault.

"It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.

Rafale was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 since it was the lowest bidder.

While initially, the deal was expected to be around USD 10 billion, it is now estimated to be over USD 20 billion.

Will take legal recourse if govt goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy | idrw.org

No one is going to offer dassault to us even if we pay 50 billion dollars,And Dassault will find customers for its jets, who are averse to both US and russian stuff, world wide multi trillion dollar arms industry is to vast for dassault to go bankrupt.

Dassualt has civilain business jet arm as well. And EADS has a considerable holding in Dassault. If dassault is ever going to be sold to anyone it is to EADS and no one else.Recently EADS has sold a major chunck of dassult shares , And there were buyers for them. SO no need to panic about future of dssault.

Swami should not try to become an overnight aeronautical expert!!!

There are enough of this breed already foul mouthing tejas. We dont need additions.

Already our esteemed Air marshal ManMohan Bahadur is saying that rafale has thrice the range of Su-30 MKI under similar load outs, now with Swamy jumping in saying that rafale is less fuel economical (like bajaj Vs Honda!!) is just a comedy of errors.

The range of rafale is certainly going to be substantially lower than what manmohan bahadur says and the fuel economy of rafale is certainly going to be far higher than what Swamy alleges.No doubt on both counts.

these things would have been evaluated in detail and IAF would have hard data at hand. So no point in questioning fuel efficiency.

Pricing and method of negotiation along with what we get from this deal is what we should concentrate.

What happened is IAF with no plan B for rafale slogan has managed to corner this new govt which wants to be seen nationalistic.

And I still believe that a lot has to happen for this deal to materialize.

I feel astounded that a brand new fighter deal can be negotiated with in a couple of days!!!

Certainly Eurofighter consortium is going to offer another counter offer and there will be lot of hard bargaining all around.

Lets wait and see what emerges out of it.

And if this deal goes through tejas will meet the same fate of HF-24 marut.
All dressed up and nowhere to go,
The same up my ASR game will be played on AMCA too.
No Modi or parrikar is ever going to change anything. because they can stay only for 5 years while import lobby stays forever.IAF has already presented the fait accompli to the nationalistic government on rafale, No squadron strength, And tejas no use case.

 

[sathya]

One thing that's satisfying is the quick decision making on plan B rather than dragging even more..

Does our 2015 air force budget support this move ?

 

[Pulkit]

BREAKING NEWS:


36 ordered in fly away condition...


What are the conditions?
Is the 126 deal over?????
What is the cost??
@Ray @Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel

 

[Punya Pratap]

fgfa and amca are nonexistent right now,welcome to dfi.

Dear Salute please read my statement carefully and check what I mean when I say the 14th Plan.... if you cannot find out what that means then come and ask me!! FGFA & AMCA both will not only be existing but hopefully screaming over our skies !! By the way thank you for welcoming me to DFI but you are a year late

 

[sathya]

Rafale only for strategic role or limited war ?

Waiting for the total cost of deal..

4 billion?

What the heck requesting to give as early as possible?

What happened to mmrca ?

 

[Srinivas_K]

Finally 36 Rafales are coming to India !