Know Your 'Rafale'

Punya Pratap

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BREAKING NEWS:


36 ordered in fly away condition...


What are the conditions?
Is the 126 deal over?????
What is the cost??
@Ray @Kunal Biswas @ersakthivel
36 in flyaway condition means that the MMRCA is not dead and we shall be hearing about it soon coz these 36 Rafale mean 2 squads that are meant to cover up for the lost years of negotiation. For me the numbers are too little to suggest that the MMRCA is dead coz remember the immediate replacement we need is for 85 odd MIG 27 that shall start retiring from 2017 onwards. I was expecting 80 odd Rafales and that would have been that for the MMRCA drama!
Now since this deal is only for 2 squads I think 90 odd will have to follow.
 
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Pulkit

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No one is going to offer dassault to us even if we pay 50 billion dollars,And Dassault will find customers for its jets, who are averse to both US and russian stuff, world wide multi trillion dollar arms industry is to vast for dassault to go bankrupt.

Dassualt has civilain business jet arm as well. And EADS has a considerable holding in Dassault. If dassault is ever going to be sold to anyone it is to EADS and no one else.Recently EADS has sold a major chunck of dassult shares , And there were buyers for them. SO no need to panic about future of dssault.

Swami should not try to become an overnight aeronautical expert!!!

There are enough of this breed already foul mouthing tejas. We dont need additions.

Already our esteemed Air marshal ManMohan Bahadur is saying that rafale has thrice the range of Su-30 MKI under similar load outs, now with Swamy jumping in saying that rafale is less fuel economical (like bajaj Vs Honda!!) is just a comedy of errors.

The range of rafale is certainly going to be substantially lower than what manmohan bahadur says and the fuel economy of rafale is certainly going to be far higher than what Swamy alleges.No doubt on both counts.

these things would have been evaluated in detail and IAF would have hard data at hand. So no point in questioning fuel efficiency.

Pricing and method of negotiation along with what we get from this deal is what we should concentrate.

What happened is IAF with no plan B for rafale slogan has managed to corner this new govt which wants to be seen nationalistic.

And I still believe that a lot has to happen for this deal to materialize.

I feel astounded that a brand new fighter deal can be negotiated with in a couple of days!!!

Certainly Eurofighter consortium is going to offer another counter offer and there will be lot of hard bargaining all around.

Lets wait and see what emerges out of it.

And if this deal goes through tejas will meet the same fate of HF-24 marut.
All dressed up and nowhere to go,
The same up my ASR game will be played on AMCA too.
No Modi or parrikar is ever going to change anything. because they can stay only for 5 years while import lobby stays forever.IAF has already presented the fait accompli to the nationalistic government on rafale, No squadron strength, And tejas no use case.
Buddy I do agree with you on most of the points and as we both were and are not in favour of Rafale I just want to add one thing now when PM has declared 36 fly away Rafale.

1)Cost will be low though I am worrying about its maintenance .
2)36 in comparison to 126 will leave a huge window for Tejas.
3)International relationship is maintained.
4)If Rafale ends up being a fail bird we wont have alot to loose i mean we can scrap 36, once our Tejas MK2(by 2018) and AMCA (After 2020 )are there.
5)Gives IAF breathing time. No crying over depleting squad.
6)36 form 1.5 squad + 2 Squad Tejas Mk1 till 2017(If My informtion is right ) we will be having 34 squad after retiring few more Migs.
7)PAKFA T50 will also be coming by 2018-19 if India goes ahead and decides that FGFA will wait and they can use t50 just like they did for Su 30 mki
 

Pulkit

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36 in flyaway condition means that the MMRCA is not dead and we shall be hearing about it soon coz these 36 Rafale mean 2 squads that are meant to cover up for the lost years of negotiation. For me the numbers are too little to suggest that the MMRCA is dead coz remember the immediate replacement we need is for 85 odd MIG 27 that shall start retiring from 2017 onwards. I was expecting 80 odd Rafales and that would have been that for the MMRCA drama!
Now since this deal is only for 2 squads I think 90 odd will have to follow.
I do not think(wish) that there will be any follow up orders.
36 fly away is has been made to balance the deal.
The next step will/should be cancelling of the MMRCA deal and sticking to 36 in fly away condition.

MIGs will be replaced by Tejas and as per the views of our Defense minister Tejas MK1 orders might b increased and giving way to Tejas MK2 by 2018.

India is pushing towards FGFA in form to PAKFA just like the Su 30.
 

ezsasa

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India's purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)
 

Apollyon

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This separate contract for 36 nos. Dassault Rafale seems to for Strategic Forces Command for Nuke delivery. Source: my gut
 

Khagesh

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If NDA loses power and congress comes back again IAF is going to walk up to GOI and say we need more rafales after all the 60 are purchased by now.

SO we are going to buy additional rafales at much higher cost with no hope of even nominal sovergin control over any item in rafale.

So what happens is IAF which could easily have had more than 6 squadrons of tejas +Su-30 MKI combined will be having just 3 squadrons of rafale at much higher price.

And the same saga will once again be repeated with respect to AMCA vs FGFA.

Zee News had the following headline and for a second I was downcast that Modi will sell out on LCA.

PM Narendra Modi in Paris - LIVE: India to buy 36 Rafale jets, France to help develop three smart cities | Zee News

Zee News : PM Narendra Modi in Paris - LIVE: Rafale deal struck, France to invest 2 billion Euros in India
Turned out the 2 billion euros are mentioned in the general context of smart cities that the NDA-2 wants to develop.
fullstory
France to invest 2 billion euros in India
SharePrint Print E-mailComments Comment[ - ] Text [ + ] 22:28 HRS IST
From Ajay Kaul

Paris, Apr 10 (PTI) France today announced an investment of 2 billion euros (about USD 1 billion) in India as Prime Minister Narendra Modi invited French companies to pump in money in technology in the fastest growing economy.

France will invest 2 billion euros in India, President Francois Hollande announced at a CEO forum here.

Inviting French investors, Modi said, "There is no bigger market than India. It is also the fastest growing economy since the last six months.
I think our Main Stream Media Morons took it to mean 2 billion euros for the new line for Rafale and hence from there they extrapolated on a wrong input to 108 extra.

Rejoice bhai. Modi has listened to what Bharat Karnard and you were saying. And all this was done with perfect FUD in enemy camp. Congress is busy with Jahanpanah Nehru snooping on Neta ji, expose. Subu Swamy as usual is creating terrible FUD among the ghor anti-Rafale by trail balooning the silly court case route.

So this is what actually seems to have happened.

1) MMRCA quitely buried. Negotiations to be stretched till kingdom come or till Modi gets the balls to say 'The End' without having to facce the histrionics of MSM and euro.
2) We actually needed only the Rafales needed for the gap in capabilities due to numbers fall. Most likely around 60. Off course if IAF is given all 60 today they will cry like a baby for more tomorrow. So the requirement gets split for 36 plus negotiations for extra 24 odd. That is if IAF plays ball and puts in a bigger number for LCA Mk-1.
3) We had heard how 12 billion USD were offered to Indian businesses to strike up the line for LCA. Nothing was heard of it. Most likely these Indian business houses were in turn contacted by interested parties to go slow and hence they too would have to be 'convinced'. Sama, dana, danda, bhed, indrajal, maya, upeksha will be deployed in full force and most likely we will hear of these private business houses investing in LCA Mk-2 in a big way. LCA Mk-1 in that case with or without additional order will be made only by HAL.
4) Since there is absolute possibility of IAF playing hard ball after taking the first 36, Modi would be best advised to create these lines and incur sunk costs from the national budget to make LCA line a national issue. So even the Congressis cannot touch it after these have been established. And I am hopeful that is exactly what is going to happen.

Too many presumptions but I am afraid this is my best judgement assessment.

I think you should go relax now. You will see more LCAs and AMCAs in IAF than everything else put together, 20 years down the line.

Remember Agni TD. 20 years is not too long for a true saffron jingo.
 

sasi

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36 small number,we may order some more sq. Govt talks abt balancing-national security and make in India!

Ps- my guess toal 4 sq (36+42)!
 
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Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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En visite officielle à Paris, le premier ministre indien, Narendra Modi, a annoncé, vendredi 10 avril, que son pays allait signer plusieurs accords avec des entreprises françaises. Le premier, très attendu, concerne la commande de 36 avions de chasse Rafale, fabriqués par Dassault en France. M. Modi a ajouté que les termes et conditions du contrat n'étaient pas finalisés, « les termes et conditions doivent être négociés ». Le contrat pourrait s'élever à près de 4 milliards d'euros, le prix d'un Rafale à l'export étant estimé à 110 millions d'euros sans les armements.
En savoir plus sur L'Inde commande 36 avions de chasse Rafale à la France
L'Inde commande 36 avions de chasse Rafale à la France

So, it says around 4 billion euros for 36 fighters. How does it compare to the Egyptian deal? They paid 5 billion for 24 jets. So there is possibility of more buying.
 

Khagesh

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Even 36 is only an "Intention" right now. Here is the full list of formal agreements signed.

List of agreements/initiatives/announcements signed/agreed during visit of Prime Minister to France (09-12 April, 2015) | Home | www.narendramodi.in

Nuke plant and ISRO cooperation are the only big granular items mentioned. Soft side includes some architectural cooperation probably for smart cities type things and tourism.

But basically Modi, is not legally but is morally, committed on 36 having clarified his own intentions on foreign soil after so much hulla gulla has happened on Rafale.

May sound overly optimistic but kya krein.

My bet is on L&T getting into the defence business big time. May be even LCA. Now I hope they do something to rein in Motabhai Ambawani. Mote ke pass bahut paisa hai. Got to make some good use of it.
 
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warrior monk

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The 36 Rafaleswe are buying over the self is just to shore up our depleting squadrons in IAF a much larger number will be made in India with technology transfer as negotiations are going on . The hurry to buy new fighters is probably due to Chinese air base near Ladakh and other upcoming air bases near Indian border.
 

Blackwater

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The 36 Rafaleswe are buying over the self is just to shore up our depleting squadrons in IAF a much larger number will be made in India with technology transfer as negotiations are going on . The hurry to buy new fighters is probably due to Chinese air base near Ladakh and other upcoming air bases near Indian border.


sukur ha allah tala ka.


kuch to hal chal hui:p:p


anyhow can any one tel out of 36 how many will be trainers(2 seater)??

36 means 2 squadron??


which 2 stations in India will be allotted these 2 squadron??


:namaste::namaste:
 

warrior monk

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People think we have surrendered our negotiating capacity by buying 36 Rafales up front but they are forgetting that a much larger deal has also been sort of finalized , the jaitapur project of upto 6 Areva made nuclear power plants will be made in jaitapur each plant may cost upto 4 to 5 billion dollars so a total of something like 30 billion dollars of potential investment in what looks like the biggest nuclear complex in the world so if french screw us on Rafale we will re negotiate Jaitapur so basically french also need us as much we need them.
 

Punya Pratap

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Remember guys when you go on a foreign trip as the head of the political establishment you go with a well prepared strategy that covers for every scenario. I assume that is what has happened on the Rafale deal fir 36 jets which are just enough for 2 squads.. now had this deal been full and final deal then there would have been more jets including trainers and reserves. So my educated guess is that this is a stop gap arrangement and now we shall negotiate for the remaining 90 Rafale to be made in India under ToT. IAF will not cry over loosing the numbers game and GoI can spend another year mulling over the fine print before it decides to sign. I assume MoD knows something that we don't and it could possibly also be regarding the pricing and allocation of funds for the jets assuming the 7 plus growth rate stays on course so that the govt has the money to spare.

Also noticable is that the French have given us a better price compared to the Egyptians. That can only be possible when the French have been informed that there's more jets to be ordered/MMRCA to be signed and Secondly the French have atleast shown by this deal that they have decided to negotiate on the pricing so the MAKE IN INDIA Rafale shall not hopefully cost us a bomb!! Rest assured thethise Rafale deal is alive And kicking. !!!
 

sesha_maruthi27

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36 small number,we may order some more sq. Govt talks abt balancing-national security and make in India!

Ps- my guess toal 4 sq (36+42)!
36 fighters to be taken in flyway condition and 108 are going to be manufactured as a part of "MAKE IN INDIA" campaign in India........
 

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