Know Your 'Rafale'

[Lions Of Punjab]

Explained: Taking off


Deviating from the ongoing negotiations with French defence major Dassault Aviation,India on Friday directly asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets instead of 18 in fly-away condition. While the announcement during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's ongoing visit to France set the ball rolling for IAF, which has been in desperate need of fighter jets, ambiguity continues over the legalities and the number of aircraft in the multi-billion deal. Pranav Kulkarni explains

What does this announcement mean?

Going by the statement, India and France have now agreed to sign an inter-governmental agreement for supply of aircraft on terms that would be "better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation" as part of the separate process underway. This indicates that India and France will now be dealing with the contract on a government-to-government (G-to-G) basis. Prima facie, it also marks a success for India which has been negotiating hard for lower price and maintenance besides other aspects of the contract.

How is this different from the original proposal?

The original proposal involved buying 18 aircraft from Dassault in fly-away condition while the rest 108 were to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). According to the statement, the number of aircraft to be purchased in fly-away condition has increased to 36. The cost of the 36 aircraft is now pegged at nearly 4 billion Euros. What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal.

What happens to the role of HAL?

As per the defence procurement procedure, every contract costing more than Rs 300 crore has an offset obligation of 30 per cent. This means that the manufacturer has to dispose of contracts worth 30 per cent of the cost of the contract to Indian industry. In case of MMRCA, the government had increased offset obligation to 50 per cent which benefitted the Indian industry. Going just by the statement, ambiguity continues over the offset obligation. The role of HAL is also not clear. The contract, in its earlier form, fitted well in the government's Make in India slogan but now it remains to be seen as to how the government involves Indian industry in the deal.

When will the aircraft be delivered?

The government has clearly told France that the aircraft will have to be delivered in "time frame compatible with the operational requirement of IAF". India has also asked the French government to deliver "the same configuration" that has been tested and approved by IAF. Ideally, as per the original terms, the first 18 aircraft were to be delivered within three years of signing the contract. With changed numbers, the timeframe may change.

How critical is the contract for IAF?

Very important. The IAF first expressed interest in the MMRCA in 2001. The Request for Proposal was issued in 2007 and from among six contenders-the Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 Super Hornet, Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Dassault Rafale, the final two contenders — Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted and Rafale was declared lowest bidder in January 2012. From stipulated strength of 42, the IAF is now down to 34 operational squadrons. While a few of its legacy aircraft such as Mirage 2000, Jaguars have been upgraded, others need immediate replacement. The Rafales will thus fill the gap between the yet-to-be inducted LCA Tejas and the frontline Sukhoi fighter jets.

But why the delay? Is 36 sufficient to fill the number of squadrons?

No, 36 will be sufficient to create just two squadrons, whereas 126 were to create nearly six squadrons. The clarity on the further agreement will unveil how the IAF plans to meet its operational squadron strength. Meanwhile, Reuters quoted Modi as saying in France that, "the civil servants will discuss the contract in more detail and continue negotiations." The delay in the contract in the recent past was primarily due to disagreement between Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault over the guarantee of aircraft manufactured by HAL. While Dassault was reluctant to take responsibility of aircraft manufactured by HAL, India wanted Dassault to take guarantee of the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL. In February, the two sides clarified that all differences have been sorted out.

Explained: Taking off | idrw.org

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

RAFALE DEAL CAN MAKE INDIA NO. 1 ONCE MORE IN DEFENCE IMPORT

SUMMARY
Rafale fighter jet deal with France can happen during PM Modi's trip
Deal can propel India back to biggest importer of defense equipment globally
India lost out to Saudi Arabia in early 2015 as world's top defence equipment importer
$20-billion deal for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft has been stuck since 2012 over price
France's Dassault Aviation was selected by India from among 5 bidders in 2012
If 'technology transfer' is given by Rafale, it will boost PM Modi's 'Make In India' initiative
If PM Modi gets through Rafale deal, India will regain the position it lost to Saudi Arabia in early 2015.
While New Delhi is looking to seal the deal on the Rafale fighter jets with France during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's talks with French President Francois Hollande in Paris, it might put India back on the map as the world's biggest importer of defense equipment.

Analysts say that if the fighter deal goes through with France, India will regain the position it lost to Saudi Arabia in early 2015 as the world's top defence equipment importer. The $20-billion deal for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft has been stuck since 2012 over price and delivery guarantees. France's Dassault Aviation was selected by India from among five bidders in 2012 for buying 126 Rafale fighter jets as it was the lowest bidder.

Saudi Arabia surpassed India to become the world's top importer of defense equipment in 2014, according to IHS Jane's, as global defense trade rose for the sixth straight year to $64.4 billion, up from $56.8 billion.

According to Statistica, the scale of Middle East's booming weapons trade can be estimated from the fact that Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates imported $8.6 billion of military equipment in 2014 – more than the defense imports of Western Europe combined.

In 2014, India imported $5.57 billion of military hardware, placing it second worldwide. China rounds off the top three, with arms imports amounting to $2.6 billion.



The US, the world's top supplier of defense equipment, accounted for one-third of all exports last year and was the main beneficiary of strong Middle Eastern demand, IHS said.

America's Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, Europe's Airbus Group and Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) are the top five company exporters globally.

PTI reports that the deal to supply 126 Rafale fighter planes is also deadlocked because of differences over cost and technology transfer issues to give the 'Make In India' initiative a big push. The French firm is reportedly seeking a higher price. The Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon were the only two defence firms left in the race for the 126 aircraft Indian deal after years of tests since 2009.

Modi, who arrived in Paris late on Thursday on a four-day visit, will also address two meetings with French CEOs—one on infrastructure and another on defence. He will also have 'Naav pe Charcha' (chat on boat) with Hollande when they go for a cruise on Seine river which passes through Paris.

http://focusnews.com/india/rafale-deal-can-make-india-no-1-once-more-in-defence-import/14812/

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Sorry , Double Post

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The MMRCA is dead when their was deal about 36 aircraft ..

We are expecting another 30-60 aircraft, 126 number is very unlikely to happen after reading previous articles ..

Kunal I just wanted to know that will this be an end to MMRCA .

Juts like mirage will the numbers be kept to the one stated yesterday by PM i.e. 36.

AS THE FRENCH SAID THAT THE PM OF INDIA WILL COMMENT ON RAFALE.
BOTH OF THEM AVOIDED TO COMMENT ON MMRCA BUT NEUTRALISED IT BY MAKING A STATEMENT TO BUY 36 FLY AWAT RAFALE IN GOVT TO GOVT DEAL.

 

[Pulkit]

The MMRCA is dead when their was deal about 36 aircraft ..

We are expecting another 30-60 aircraft, 126 number is very unlikely to happen after reading previous articles ..

Its good if the deal is dead but I think we need to wait for the official confirmation of the same.

36 ordered and I think there will be a follow up order only if there is a delay in Tejas Mk2 and FGFA.
Even if one of them is on time we wont need any more rafale.

any deadline set for these 36?

 

[lookieloo]

Its good if the deal is dead but I think we need to wait for the official confirmation of the same.

36 ordered and I think there will be a follow up order only if there is a delay in Tejas Mk2 and FGFA.
Even if one of them is on time we wont need any more rafale.

any deadline set for these 36?

In American policy terminology, this new agreement is what's referred to as a "punt" (see American Football). The French and HAL remain unable to sort their differences regarding Indian production and ToT, but the need for fresh aircraft is becoming critical; so the problem has been "punted" to give the IAF some space in which it will at least receive something.

 

[Pulkit]

In American policy terminology, this new agreement is what's referred to as a "punt" (see American Football). The French and HAL remain unable to sort their differences regarding Indian production and ToT, but the need for fresh aircraft is becoming critical; so the problem has been "punted" to give the IAF some space in which it will at least receive something.

What you call punt we call "Jugaad" .
The 36 aircraft bought in flyaway condition might help
I have no faith in the need of Rafale.

We need LCA and not Rafale.

Still as the deal was started cancelling it would have had a huge impact so this is sort of Jugaad to keep French IAF both happy....

Not sure about Us .....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Govt of India formally requests both the French government and Dassault Aviation to supply on a G-to-G basis 36 Rafales (32 single-seaters and four tandem-seaters) as soon as possible, subject to contract negotiations for these 34 Rafales being successfully concluded within a 90-day period. Concurrently, supplementary contracts will be inked with SNECMA Moteurs for two spare M88 turbofans, with Dassault Aviation for ground-support hardware for first- and second-line MRO, with THALES for a cockpit procedures trainer and a full-flight tactical training simulator, with MBDA for the guided-weapons package, and with Dassault Aviation for a maintenance training simulator.

From : http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2015/04/taking-final-call-on-what-was.html

any deadline set for these 36?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

India, France announce deal for 36 fully-built Rafale fighters

Setting aside the norms of New Delhi's procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.

Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper; Saab's Gripen NG; RAC-MiG's MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH's Typhoon and Dassault's Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.

Since then, Dassault's clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault's bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.

If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault's terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.


Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.

It remains unclear whether the defence ministry's "cost negotiation committee" (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government's decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.

Source : Broadsword: India, France announce deal for 36 fully-built Rafale fighters

 

[ersakthivel]

Buddy I do agree with you on most of the points and as we both were and are not in favour of Rafale I just want to add one thing now when PM has declared 36 fly away Rafale.

1)Cost will be low though I am worrying about its maintenance .
2)36 in comparison to 126 will leave a huge window for Tejas.
3)International relationship is maintained.
4)If Rafale ends up being a fail bird we wont have alot to loose i mean we can scrap 36, once our Tejas MK2(by 2018) and AMCA (After 2020 )are there.
5)Gives IAF breathing time. No crying over depleting squad.
6)36 form 1.5 squad + 2 Squad Tejas Mk1 till 2017(If My informtion is right ) we will be having 34 squad after retiring few more Migs.
7)PAKFA T50 will also be coming by 2018-19 if India goes ahead and decides that FGFA will wait and they can use t50 just like they did for Su 30 mki

This is what rohitvats posted in BR,

The 2 x Rafale Squadrons seem to have been contracted to arrest the squadron decline in 2015-2020 period.

You'll have 4 x Mig-21 M/MF, 3 x Mig-27ML and 1 x Mig-21 Bis on their way out and 4 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Tejas Mk1 and now, 2 x Rafale coming into the service. This should balance out the immediate requirement. And this immediate requirement is what is driving the Government decision.

Now, the question is what happens after 2020 in the 2020-25 when 2 x Tejas Mk2 (number produced by 2025), 4 x Rafale and hopefully, 1 x FGFA were expected to come in for 6 x Mig-21 Bison and 2 x Mig-27 UPG squadrons being phased out.

What can happen is more numbers of Tejas Mk1/Mk1.5 being ordered to make up for sheer numbers w/o getting into qualitative aspect. The IAF was relying on Rafale to make up the 42 squadron number target by 2025-27 period.

So this 36 rafales are for the emergency need for the period between 2015-2020 all due to bungled MMRCA negotiations by UPA regime as I explained earlier.

After 2020 we will have tejas mk2, FGFA rolling out hopefully, so there is no immediate need for rafale as much as we need it now,

Also some reports indicate there will be offset clause even in this 36 rafale emergency purchase.

And what will happen to the remaining 126 MMRCA rafales is a biggest mystery right now.

 

[ersakthivel]

India, France announce deal for 36 fully-built Rafale fighters



Source : Broadsword: India, France announce deal for 36 fully-built Rafale fighters

Rival vendors can never object. it was made clear to them that GOI will only negotiate with L1.

Also Eurofighter seems to have so many issues that are yet to be sorted out .

this is no arbitary purchase as Shuklaji makes it out be, UPA bungled for decades on MMRCA purchase and now this is an emergency purchase to keep up squadron strength of IAF that must be done by any govt worth its salt,
this what Rohitvats posted in BR,

The 2 x Rafale Squadrons seem to have been contracted to arrest the squadron decline in 2015-2020 period.

You'll have 4 x Mig-21 M/MF, 3 x Mig-27ML and 1 x Mig-21 Bis on their way out and 4 x Su-30MKI, 2 x Tejas Mk1 and now, 2 x Rafale coming into the service. This should balance out the immediate requirement. And this immediate requirement is what is driving the Government decision.

Now, the question is what happens after 2020 in the 2020-25 when 2 x Tejas Mk2 (number produced by 2025), 4 x Rafale and hopefully, 1 x FGFA were expected to come in for 6 x Mig-21 Bison and 2 x Mig-27 UPG squadrons being phased out.

So what will happen after 2020 is the real issue now.

dassault will be in no commanding position after 2020 as rohitvats makes it clear IAF will have more options, So Dassautl can not dictate to IAF and least of all to this NDA govt.

It remains unclear whether the defence ministry's "cost negotiation committee" (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government's decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.

on the contrary i think that it strengthens the CNC . because with immediate requirement catered to and with IAF having enough options post 2020 in the form of FGFA, Tejas mk2 and even some extra Su-30 MKis , it is upto Dassault to give attractive terms so that it can win the contract for the remaining 126 fighters. if it drags its feet rafale will play the key niche role played by mirage-2000 in IAF.

 

[sgarg]

Very good move by GOI. This gives breathing space to IAF while allowing the government to formally kill MMRCA tender. More Rafale can be procured direct in G-to-G mode if needed. This deal allows GOI to push IAF back towards fifth generation projects - FGFA and AMCA.

The MMRCA was taking too much bandwidth of IAF, and the whole planning process was stuck.

 

[Compersion]

Can we have a situation like we did with the Russians and the sukhoi where we ordered 40 initially and later license build the rest in india. it took time to build up and finalise the contract

the question is would the french be willing to corporate like the russians and also assist in infrastructure development and planning and transfer of technology

the russians did not go through a tender. and there is no reason why we cannot do the same with the french without a tender if what we achieve is much better compared to the tender

 

[ersakthivel]

Unexpected windfall for France with Rafale? | Security Wise

 

[ersakthivel]

Can we have a situation like we did with the Russians and the sukhoi where we ordered 40 initially and later license build the rest in india. it took time to build up and finalise the contract

the question is would the french be willing to corporate like the russians and also assist in infrastructure development and planning and transfer of technology

the russians did not go through a tender. and there is no reason why we cannot do the same with the french without a tender if what we achieve is much better compared to the tender

Eaclty the opposite.
We are exercising our options for the additional 36 rafales and ditching the UP corruption led flawed conceited MMRCA negotiated 126 origianl batch of rafales.

All of the bribe seeking MMRCA rules are now gone with the wind. if the Dssault wants any more sale of their rafales to IAF above 36 they will have to offer useful concessions or forget about it.

their unassailable negotiation position by being the "fake L1" is now cut to pieces.

Before this emergency 36 rafale buy, Dassault knew it can hold out as long as possible on not offering TOT and guarantee to HAL built rafale in the hope IAF needs this plane badly.

Now NDA govt has taken care of immediate IAF requirements till 2020 by this rafale buy.

After 2020 we will have FGFA and Tejas mk2 and even upgraded Su-30 MKI as options.

With all bribe seeking MMRCA negotiation rules thrown to the winds, no one can dictate terms for IAF or GOI after 2020.

 

[Vishwarupa]

Swamy takes on Narendra Modi, calls new Rafale jet deal between India, France a 'case of arbitrariness'

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition under a new deal with France has come will severe criticism from a prominent member of his own party. After meeting French President Francois Hollande in Paris on Friday, Modi announced that Indian Air Force will get 36 Rafale jets which is apart from the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) agreement for 126 more planes.
But senior BJP leader Subramanian Swamy termed the new Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France a case of arbitrariness. Swamy is yet to decide on what action to take over Modi government's decision to purchase 36 aircraft from France.
Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

#bjp #rafale fighter jet #india #france
"There are two major issues with the Rafale aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.
"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said.
Sources said that Finance Minister Arun Jaitley crafted the new arrangement between India and France during his brief spell as the defence minister earlier.
IAF selected the Rafael fighter under the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal after a close competition which also saw Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen in the race. While Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were eliminated very early, Dassault Rafale edged out the Eurofighter Typhoon in the final negotiation.
At present the IAf has just 34 fighter squadrons against the ideal 45 squadrons required to take on the threat from both Pakistan and China simultaneously. The ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes are being phased out which will see the IAF strength depleting by at least eight more squadrons.
Under the MMRCA terms, India is to get only 18 Rafale directly while the rest 108 fighters will be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But the final deal between India and France is stuck over who would be responsible for the manufacturers' guarantee on 108 jets which could be built HAL. India wants Rafale maker Dassault Aviation to take full responsibility which the latter has till now not agreed to.

Swamy takes on Narendra Modi, calls new Rafale jet deal between India, France a 'case of arbitrariness' - IBNLive

Parrikar says Rafale jets will be inducted in 2 years, Swamy slams deal

 

[sgarg]

@Compersion, it is unlikely for Rafale as Dassault is showing lack of confidence in HAL. Sukhoi and Russians have good track record of cooperation with HAL.

It seems to me that Dassault and HAL are incompatible.

 

[ersakthivel]

As usual many DDM folks are making this 36 deal to be a teaser for the main 126 MMRCA rafale deal. With french govt giving these 36 rafales at a price lower than the price offered by Dassault in MMRCA, how will GOI buy the 126 MMRCA rafales at extra price is the question.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Compersion, it is unlikely for Rafale as Dassault is showing lack of confidence in HAL. Sukhoi and Russians have good track record of cooperation with HAL.

It seems to me that Dassault and HAL are incompatible.

it s all about money , nothing else.

 

[ersakthivel]

saw it on the net,

DM : We have purchased 36 Rafale is fly away conditions. And more Aircraft will be made in India for medium multi role purpose. It would be any fighters Rafale or other. I don't want to go into it. Since for the past 14 years from 2000 we haven't inducted any major Advanced aircraft. So we will looking at adding more Advanced jets . Rafale is 4+ generation aircraft (very capabcapable is what he ment)

We have well upgraded jets like Mig 29 mirages etc all are 3rd gen fighters .

Surprise statement on Tejas : He said our own Tejas light combat Multi role aircraft will go through final test flight next month. So within a month or two all issues will be sorted out . And major induction process will begin

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india...dian-air-force-manohar-​parrikar_1576984.html

Indian Air Force will get minimum oxygen (relief) it required with this deal...In fact we have not purchased any major new generation aircraft in (last) 17 years."

"Procuring 36 planes for two squadrons is an extremely positive decision which was needed," Parrikar told a news agency here.

Modi had yesterday said in Paris that India will buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in flyaway condition from France at the earliest by "keeping in view the critical operational necessity of fighter aircraft in India."

"The RFP (Request for Proposal) procedure for procuring these aircraft had been dragging on for several years. This was started in 2000 and still it was not getting completed because of a lot of confusion so I am very happy that the PM has taken the initiative," Parrikar said.

He said the fighter jets will be inducted into IAF within a span of two years, adding the ice has been finally broken over the deal.

Parrikar did not give any reasons why it will take up to a maximum of two years for inducting these much-needed fighters into IAF.

Experts feel that time may be needed for further price negotiations and refitting the aircraft in tune with Indian requirements. While the government-to-government negotiations may have ended, the forces may have to fine-tune the deal with the manufacturers Dassault.

Parrikar said after the initial purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft, the country will have more such planes under "Make in India initiative or Rafale kind of mechanism."

Noting that Light Combat aircraft Tejas will undergo final flight testing next month, he said, 'Make In India' is a long-term solution for India's Air Force strength.

"We have to push the development of Tejas and we have to also ensure that we could build some high grade aircraft," Parrikar said.

So the MMRCA saga is far from over.