Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

In riposte to a question on the long-delayed deal with the French firm for 126 fighter jets — often called the mother of all deals — Parrikar on Tuesday said, "We have conveyed our stand to them (France) very clearly. Simultaneously, they have to tell us whether they can do it or not. We can't keep on waiting."

This has made my day. Let us see what COAS has to say to this.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Parrikar Puts his Foot Down, No Compromise on Rafale Deal

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has conveyed to the French government and defence equipment manufacturer Dassault that conditions on the price and RFP (request for proposal) of the purchase of Rafale multi-medium role combat aircraft were non-negotiable.

In riposte to a question on the long-delayed deal with the French firm for 126 fighter jets — often called the mother of all deals — Parrikar on Tuesday said, "We have conveyed our stand to them (France) very clearly. Simultaneously, they have to tell us whether they can do it or not. We can't keep on waiting."

Parrikar's French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian had visited India last month to attend a meeting with delegates from both sides, including top executives from Dassault, in a last ditch effort to save the deal. However, little progress has been made so far. Earlier, Parrikar had said if the on-going deadlock continued, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) would strengthen the existing Su-30Mki fleet to meet the IAF's requirements.

Citing cost escalation, Dassault has refused to take 'full responsibility' of the 108 fighters to be manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as per the original tender.

Sources within the MoD privy to the development said the cost of the project had shot up to over $20 billion from the initial $ 12 billion, when the tender was floated in 2007.

The cost negotiation committee set up to finalise the modalities of the deal in February, 2012, has not reached a consensus so far.

Parrikar Puts his Foot Down, No Compromise on Rafale Deal | idrw.org

I think it will be best to just get 4 squadrons of the Rafale off the shelf only to ensure the price is right.... as it is the delay has made the ToT out of date and the French always charge a premium!!

If the 4 Squads can be delivered by 2020 then only the Rafale is worthwhile other wise mid 2020's onwards we shall start getting the 5th Gen - FGFA & AMCA!!

 

[sgarg]

AF TO OPT FOR SUKHOI-30 IF RAFALE DEAL FALLS FLAT
Monday, 08 April 2013 | Rahul Datta | New Delhi

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is coming up with a contingency plan to procure fighter jets to maintain its operational preparedness in case the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal worth over $15 billion to procure 126 Rafale jets does not go through.

The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia. The IAF has already inducted 100 SU-30s and will have 200 more jets in the next three to four years excluding the ones forming part of contingency project.

This development has come about as the MMRCA deal often termed as "mother of all deals" is stuttering due to various reasons, and officials are not able to give any timeline for its completion.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-...for-sukhoi-30--if-rafale-deal-falls-flat.html

The news item is from 08 April 2013, which shows previous UPA government was having problems with Dassault and the Rafale deal was stuck BEFORE NDA came to power.

It is really unfortunate when a COAS makes some statements which puts the entire structure in jeopardy.

Despite Dassault's 95% claim, I still think this deal is very much doubtful and IAF will be better served by formulating alternatives.

 

[sgarg]

Rafale may be a very good fighter with low RCS and Spectra suite; but the fact remains this deal is like clutching at straws in strong blowing wind. The French have not acted with any consistency and such a large scale project completing successfully is very doubtful.

India needs planes which serve it in times of distress. Stability and consistency are important for such an important deal.

India needs to extract the maximum from what it has. A hard look is needed at Su-30 line - as to how the line can be used to maximum benefit.

 

[Kyubi]

From what I've heard, the deal may not go through as there is a perennial problem associated with guarantee on the remaining aircrafts which will be made by HaL.
Its not to do with the money, according to the 1 I spoke to he says there is no dearth of funds at all for the Rafael deal, as popularly debated.
The dassault team has a burning problem with HAL's manufacturing prowess, they r just not happy with its industrial complex, hence the reason for not succumbing to HALs stubbornness.

The case here being the frequent crashes attributed to HAL manufactured fighter jets, he told me the Imported Jags never had any problem whatsoever, but half of the HaL manufactured ones r always grounded for repairs!!! Not only these even supply chain is erratic.
Hence the stalemate in Rafael deal.

 

[sgarg]

@Kyubi, the reason can be anything but it is no deal at the end of the day. GOI cannot boot out HAL, as there is no viable alternative.

Maybe HAL was inserted by UPA to scuttle the deal. Who knows? Whatever it is, the MMRCA tender has been sabotaged.

 

[Kyubi]

@sgarg then maybe GOI should allow domestic player to partner dassault and have a binding contract ( pertaining to supply chain economics )that would not allow them to bleed the exchequer of billions of dollars, though there may be no dearth of funds. We should not be taken for a ride. That will set a bad precedent for future deals.

Comments made by air marshals and others over BRD's capability should be, for a change examined.

Unfortunately engineering stream has also become a dumping ground for nonperformers. HAL needs to weed out such people. Complacency and job security has resulted in sub standard work culture.

 

[sgarg]

India has no private sector company today with experience in military aircraft manufacturing. An alternative to HAL cannot be created overnight.

It is more logical to involve private sector in projects like LCA-Tejas where most of the supply chain and expertise is in India; as compared to Rafale where inexperience of domestic private player will show up for sure.

If Dassault itself sets up shop in India (may be in EEZ), then it is a different scenario.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

From what I've heard, the deal may not go through as there is a perennial problem associated with guarantee on the remaining aircrafts which will be made by HaL.
Its not to do with the money, according to the 1 I spoke to he says there is no dearth of funds at all for the Rafael deal, as popularly debated.
The dassault team has a burning problem with HAL's manufacturing prowess, they r just not happy with its industrial complex, hence the reason for not succumbing to HALs stubbornness.

The case here being the frequent crashes attributed to HAL manufactured fighter jets, he told me the Imported Jags never had any problem whatsoever, but half of the HaL manufactured ones r always grounded for repairs!!! Not only these even supply chain is erratic.
Hence the stalemate in Rafael deal.

maybe you should look up the crash reason statistics
& Maintainance practices of IAF


from 1986 onwards

63% of total Helicopter Crash in the indian armed forces are attributed to Human error - Pilot error

out of total crashes in IAF in last 15 years
51% are attibuted to Human error - Pilot Error
49% are attributed to technical defects
In 30% of this 49% crashes COI - court of Inquiry- are not able to pinpoint the reason of crash

In Mig21 0.6% of crashes are attributed to manufacturing defects at HAL

maintainance

Last year IAF spent rs 57 crore on spare & Maintainance (including ground equipment) of Su30MKI fleet of 200 aircraft
what do you expect with 57crores ?

 

[Free Karma]

India draws bottom line for Rafale - The Times of India

India will not ink the mega $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters till France agrees to stick to its original pricing, which led its Rafale fighter to defeat the Eurofighter Typhoon in commercial evaluation over three years ago. This is India's "bottom line" on which the outcome of long-drawn final negotiations with French aviation major Dassault now hinges, even as Prime Minister Narendra Modi is all set to leave for France on Thursday as part of his three-nation tour.

"Dassault has to adhere to its earlier commitments. No Indian government can finalize such a major project if the L-1 (lowest bidder) pricing is changed... it can be a deal-breaker despite political pressure from France," said a top source. As first reported by TOI, the defence ministry is upset with Dassault's attempt to "change the price line" because it will substantially jack up the production cost of the 108 Rafales to be made by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in India after the first 18 are imported. There is, however, progress on the other major stumbling block. A mechanism is being evolved to ensure there are no penalties or liquidity damages imposed on Dassault if HAL fails to deliver as per specified timelines, sources said.

The voluminous MMRCA contract was almost 90% done, with technology transfer, offsets and other issues as well as the inter-governmental agreement all ready, when pricing and guarantee issues stalled negotiations almost a year ago.

With continuing delay in finalization of the MMRCA project and IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons (14 of them made of old MiG-21s and MiG-27s), India is also trying to fast-track the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft project with Russia, as reported by TOI earlier.

As per Dassault's costing, there is now a "big jump in the man-hours needed" for each jet to be produced by HAL after transfer of technology. In effect, each jet will now cost much more than what was originally projected. "Hypothetically, if the cost of each jet goes up by around Rs 30-40 crore, we will then be looking at a hike of Rs 3,240-Rs 4,320 crore for the 108 jets to be made here. Dassault should relent, become fully compliant to the RFP (request for proposal) and stand 100% by its original offer. It can live with a slightly lesser profit margin," said the source.

There is, however, progress on the other major stumbling block. A mechanism is being evolved to ensure there are no penalties or liquidity damages imposed on Dassault if HAL fails to deliver as per specified timelines, sources said.

The voluminous MMRCA contract was almost 90% done, with technology transfer, offsets and other issues as well as the inter-governmental agreement all ready, when pricing and guarantee issues stalled negotiations almost a year ago. With continuing delay in finalization of the MMRCA project and IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons (14 of them made of old MiG-21s and MiG-27s), India is also trying to fast-track the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft project with Russia, as reported by TOI earlier.

India has told Russia it wants deliveries of the FGFA to begin 36 months after the main contract is inked, instead of the 94 months envisaged earlier. For this, India is ready to switch from the original co-development and co-production plan to direct acquisition of an initial lot followed by co-production. India will spend around $25 billion on the FGFA project if eventually 127 such fighters as planned.

 

[sgarg]

I have said the same thing several months back (Oct 14) on this forum. Changing price is equal to reopening the tender bids, as other players will also be asked to give bids again. As time passes, specs of aircrafts change. The plane that is rejected earlier on technical grounds may have improved. So changing the price throws the whole tender into chaos.

 

[sorcerer]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

India Prime Minister to Discuss Rafale Fighter Jet Deal During France Visit
France's Ambassador to India Francois Richier said that Indian Prime Minister is set to discuss a long-disputed deal to buy Rafale fighter jets during his visit to France scheduled for April 10-11.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is set to discuss a long-disputed deal to buy Rafale fighter jets during his visit to France scheduled for April 10-11, France's Ambassador to India Francois Richier told Sputnik Tuesday.

"Only thing I can say on Rafale is that the deal is on. Rafale deal will be on the agenda of talks during Indian Prime Minister Modi's visit to France," Richier said.

The diplomat declined to give any further details.

Earlier, Indian media reported that New Delhi might pull out of the $20-billion deal with the French Dassault Aviation Company on an acquisition of 126 Rafale fighters.

In 2012 the Dassault Aviation won a bid to supply 126 Rafale fighter jets to India but the purchase was delayed over high costs and the company's refusal to guarantee the performance of Rafales produced in India.

Russian and British fighter jets have been tipped as a possible replacement for the Rafale jets if the deal should be scrapped.

Read more: India Prime Minister to Discuss Rafale Fighter Jet Deal During France Visit / Sputnik International


Read more: India Prime Minister to Discuss Rafale Fighter Jet Deal During France Visit / Sputnik International

 

[roma]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Defence News is reporting Rafale deal at $12 billion.
What is the right figure? Although, I have quoted in the above write-up figure from $10 billion to $30 Billion from various sources.

agree with you the figure seems to be going up all the time
secondly the euro zone is in huge trouble - at the moment it is south europe but
will sooner or later hit France as well - coud be advantageous to us ?

not an easy decision this rafael deal

There are pros and cons of this deal.

Now the Cons:

. The deal could bankrupt the national defence budget.

. Will this purchase slow down the development of LCA-2.

. Etc.

your main points - inflation will play merry hell wit the price - agree .... unless
we transfer all assembly lines to india plus all materials - unrealistic !

will bankrupt defense budget - agree - already did a few years ago n planning
and is not worth that much

will put LCA development back - agree - not worth it

conclusion - go for russian tech - keeps us alive although not absolutely ideal
meanwhile we ARE learning and improving - this incremental way is better

Pray that the Deal is cancelled.

what ever the govt decides to do plz do it quickly. either yes or no and end this ever lasting debate of is it good deal or bad put to rest. its getting very repeatative and boring now.

no , pls take time and cancel the deal

chipak unlikely to do much as india has strength even today
but forge ahead with indigenous developments

parrikar's speeding up of all drdo and other research and dev orgs is a superb move
all that can result in a heightened defence capability and we dont need super expensive rafael

 

[sorcerer]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

conclusion - go for russian tech - keeps us alive although not absolutely ideal
meanwhile we ARE learning and improving - this incremental way is better

Ofcourse Russian deal is good..but Russia has larger problems at hand now politically and we have 5 billion locked up in T-50(???).
Cant blame them Russians cuz its their survival that could be in question.

I would say if India can foot the bill on Rafale..lets get it with the agreed terms. We need flying contraptions in air for sure.

 

[indiandefencefan]

I have said the same thing several months back (Oct 14) on this forum. Changing price is equal to reopening the tender bids, as other players will also be asked to give bids again. As time passes, specs of aircrafts change. The plane that is rejected earlier on technical grounds may have improved. So changing the price throws the whole tender into chaos.

Another factor here is that other fighters which may have been rejected then for having a higher cost than the rafale have cut rates making them more economical to operate now compared to the rafale. This makes the IAF appear as a guilty party in CAG reports for choosing a more expensive fighter jet. This could be a potential deal killer.

 

[Blackwater]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

i doubt deal will be signed during modi visit in few days.

bone of contention.

India wants original price quoted earlier during biding process and France want price rise

France concerned about level of quality to be used by HAL specially in level of quality of carbon fibre

 

[JBH22]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

After the Mistral Fiasco we have observed France no longer maintains an independent foreign policy, but in fact it is being directed by NATO and Uncle Sam.

What are the alternatives if Rafale is rejected. Forget EF-2000 its a failed plane otherwise EU states would not be longing for the F-35

 

[Blackwater]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

After the Mistral Fiasco we have observed France no longer maintains an independent foreign policy, but in fact it is being directed by NATO and Uncle Sam.

What are the alternatives if Rafale is rejected. Forget EF-2000 its a failed plane otherwise EU states would not be longing for the F-35

F-16 block 60

 

[niku456]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

if rafale deal got canceled than switch for mig 35. Affordable and deadly. As russian bird, no restriction. Btw f/a-18sh will be good choice.

 

[niku456]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

F-16 block 60

sir, f-16 is potent plane but super hornet will be better but my personal choice is mig 35.