Know Your 'Rafale'

[aerokan]

Terminate the Rafale Deal


Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has repeatedly and publicly declared "there's no Plan B", that in effect it is Rafale or nothing with respect to the Indian Air Force's dubious Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement. It merits his dismissal from service, because these words denote gross incompetence, failure to anticipate the unexpected and prepare for it—axiomatic in all military planning and, hence, of leadership. For every plan there is always an alternative plan of action in case things don't work out as envisaged.

The absence of a fallback scheme is, of course, a ruse by Raha to pressurise the government into acceding to IAF's wishes for the Rafale, despite defence minister Manohar Parrikar spelling out an alternative—
Terminate the Rafale Deal | idrw.org

Something which should be too obvious to the administration but unfortunately not

 

[sgarg]

Wow! strong words from IDRW. Is it the Bhaang prepared for Holi?

IDRW promoters are no friends of current government. Strange games people play to increase their visibility.

I do not think GOI has any intentions of removing COAS Raha. This is not how this government works.

 

[sgarg]

The government is pragmatic about MMRCA and a contract can still be awarded IF negotiations can be concluded.
However CAUTION that there are too many IFs and BUTs.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

After almost fifteen years of waiting a plane was chosen and now deal on the chopping block.
How can upgrades be made and this avoided? IMO build indigenous weapons, lay down
A industrial military infrastructure.

 

[sgarg]

After almost fifteen years of waiting a plane was chosen and now deal on the chopping block.
How can upgrades be made and this avoided? IMO build indigenous weapons, lay down
A industrial military infrastructure.

The mistake was to create a very complicated tender. It is impossible to calculate and compare "lifetime cost" of a fighter. Once a bad premise was chosen, it became a focus of manipulation.

The stalwarts of Congress party are aces of manipulation. This is what happened to MMRCA.

The waters were made murkier by introduction of TOT into the game which was not part of original MMRCA concept (as a quick purchase to fill capability gap).

MMRCA has stayed relevant due to slow progress in the local programs, which I suspect was intentional on the part of previous UPA regime.

Yes MMRCA represents a significant boost to IAF capability. Is it adequate to win a war with China or even hold off China - not too sure.

There are other ways of increasing defensive military power of the nation.

 

[cobra commando]

Warranty Compromise Agreed on India Rafale Contract

 

[sgarg]

Warranty compromise does not change TOT cost and timeline risk.
There is also escalation in unit price which MOD does not agree.
Lifecycle cost will have to be abandoned if this contract is to be concluded. If will have to be awarded on the basis of unit cost + TOT cost.

 

[smestarz]

Warranty Compromise Agreed on India Rafale Contract

Trappier was careful to note that resolution of the warranty issue does not mean an immediate signature of the Rafale contract, as this is always a long process in India as many administrative levels are involved. (The long-overdue report of the Contract Negotiation Committee, which is necessary for the Rafale contract to be approved, has still not been released—Ed.)

 

[akshay m]

what on earth is this??
:shocked::shocked::shocked:

@Kunal Biswas,sir ,what do you think??

PR???????????

Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter.

India and France are in final negotiation for the procurement of 126 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force.

Indian Navy's current (INS Vikramaditya, INS Viraat) and near term (INS Vikrant) aircraft carriers are all fitted with a ramp for STOBAR type operations (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery). While likely capable of STOBAR operations, the Rafale M capabilities would be maximized with a CATOBAR type aircraft carrier (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) like the US Navy aircraft carriers or the French Navy aircraft carrier.

Indian Navy's future INS Vishal might be nuclear-powered carrier with CATOBAR system.Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

 

[Kunal Biswas]

RFI won`t only remain till Dassult but also Lockheed and others, NLCA MK2 will be operated along these fighters ..

what on earth is this??
:shocked::shocked::shocked:

 

[anum]

Replacement of mirage 2000 is new Rafales wow "¦.India will became the most modern air force in Asia

 

[smestarz]

Warranty compromise does not change TOT cost and timeline risk.
There is also escalation in unit price which MOD does not agree.
Lifecycle cost will have to be abandoned if this contract is to be concluded. If will have to be awarded on the basis of unit cost + TOT cost.

Then does Rafale still be L1? There are some reports that the cost of Eurofighter given to India was lower than Rafale, and Rafale won L1 because its LCC cost was manipulated by Ex air chief marshall NAK Browne

 

[smestarz]

Replacement of mirage 2000 is new Rafales wow "¦.India will became the most modern air force in Asia

And India will be the new bankrupt country in Asia

 

[akshay m]

@Kunal Biswas @smestarz , @sgarg, @ersakthivel


Rafale fighter jet deal not yet finalised: Parrikar
13 Mar 2015, 15:36

"Rafale deal is not through or final. If it is at all finalised in future, it will take time. I would not like to comment on it as it is still in the negotiation stage," he explained during question hour.

The Rafale deal for 126 jets is estimated to cost over USD 20 billion over the next decade and is considered to be the biggest global defence tender.

The Defence Minister said the Defence Acquisition Council has recently cleared 44 projects worth Rs 1,34,000 crore and all of them were critical for the armed forces.

"We are trying to fast track our defence acquisition process. One example is bullet-proof jacket. We have already ordered 50,000 bullet proof jacket and 50,000 more are expected to be ordered shortly...," he claimed.

Parrikar asserted his Ministry was ensuring that all three wings of the armed forces coordinate with each other for inclusiveness rather than exclusiveness, so that duplication is avoided while acquiring defence products.

Observing that some critical shortages in ammunitions were being addressed, he said a constant endeavour was made for upgrading the conventional equipment, developing new technologies and acquiring contemporary systems.

"Mismatches between requirements and availability can sometimes occur which are continually address by the on-going procurement process," he assured.

Parrikar said unsafe and outdated equipment were not utilised by defence forces. Ageing of equipment is a natural process and is dealt with through proper maintenance, obsolescence management, upgrades and acquisition of new equipment.

The Defence Acquisition Council has decided for procurement of light helicopters under the 'buy and make' category. Five cases of procurement of small arms are at different stages of the procurement cycle, he added.
Rafale fighter jet deal not yet finalised: Parrikar

 

[sgarg]

Yes I know. I think the negotiation will center around unit cost and TOT cost. TOT part is specially tricky as GOI wants minimum dependence on French long term.

Nobody would want 20B fleet to sit idle for want of spares in wartime.

 

[smestarz]

@Kunal Biswas @smestarz , @sgarg, @ersakthivel


Rafale fighter jet deal not yet finalised: Parrikar
13 Mar 2015, 15:36

Few important points here,
a) The words of RM are in a way clear to say that it will take time, and that means the cost is still an issue. so only contracts that are signed are the ones between Team Dassault and its indian contractors (HAL, etc etc) but these come into effect IF AND ONLY IF GoI signs the deal. Going by this ifs another few months before something is going to come, as I understand RM is only waiting for good news from Tejas II once that is done, India gets the ideal replacement for MiG-21 (single engine plane for single engine plane)

b) No one is above the Parliament but all the statements given by IAF chief do suggest that their whims have to be fulfilled. "There is no plan B"
As per me IAF (and here i mean top brass who run it) clearly have no vision of future, or are they developing any strategies or doctrines based on the weapons they have. If they had, we would not be getting comments like plan B. This is the same air force that took on F-86 Sabre jets with Folland Gnats. And now they are scared even if IAF has Su-30 MKI and the best that PAF is F-16?

c) There is no friendship here with French, its all business and they have shown it. They had assured to help on Kaveri after we signed the contract with Rafale, but now we have other suitors who want to help on Kaveri.

d) The project cost here mentioned is Rs 1,34,000 crores which comes to US$ 21-22 billion at the present rate. Thus only the cost of planes is about US$ 10 billion (Dassault CEO said the cost of planes is same and lets believe him here) but the other cost of setting up a line, tooling and maybe weapons, will cost another 12 billion, As per me this number will further rise, but lets just fix it at US$ 22 billion then the cost per plane for 126 planes comes to US$ 175 million a plane (US$ 75 million per plane and US$ 95 million average per plane of other costs)

If we order the options 63 then it would be (US$ 75 million per plane and US$ 63 million per plane) since the option is taken it would be at earlier agreed price of US$ 75 million but the average of cost of lines etc etc now is averaged over 189 planes reducing it to 63 million per plane)
Thus we spend about US$ 138 - 175 million per plane, and all we get is to learn only about using tools in efficient way. We are not going to get the ToT for RBE-2AA, or M-88 engine (we shall only be assembling kits) or SPECTRA. So why should we pay such a high price for this, and that too for a plane whose lines depend on India.

France wanted to reduce the nos, and so they are eager to find a customer as it has commitment to buy 11 planes a year, and now want only 4 planes a year, and that desperation did cause it to SELL AND FINANCE the planes for Egypt, a country whose economy is in ruins,

Dassault seems does not seem to be working on any new plane, as I doubt France can afford any new system to buy. Thus now they will be upgrading Rafale more avionically than structurally, as structural upgradation will cost them more and France cannot afford that, and hence most of the focus now will be develop the Radar, Avionics and PODS for Rafale. THERE IS NO PLAN B HERE.

The only other project seems to be UCAV nEUROn. but I doubt it it has many new buyers thought it could be potential.

 

[sgarg]

@smestarz, the kavery engine and Tejas are delinked. So there is not pressure on DRDO to take help from a foreign vendor. DRDO has the mandate to develop the requisite technology.

Once an engine is ready, it should be tested on an LCA prototype.

 

[smestarz]

@smestarz, the kavery engine and Tejas are delinked. So there is not pressure on DRDO to take help from a foreign vendor. DRDO has the mandate to develop the requisite technology.

Once an engine is ready, it should be tested on an LCA prototype.

Let us not call Kaveri as delinked from Tejas
Tejas was supposed to replace MiG-21 as most agree, but since Kaveri development was going on and the whole Tejas project stalled hence we had to get American GE F-404 which was more or less what was then need of IAF.

But then the Kaveri was complete but on testing it was found to work but did not give the thrust as required and hence to avoid delay for Tejas II it was decided to select GE F-414 engines,

Now the American engine does come with certain limits for India, firstly is that we cannot get them as and when we want to and secondly, that limits the countries to which we can export Tejas, after all we are thinking to export Tejas to friendly countries such as say Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan maybe?

Thus when we have our own engine we can achieve more, specially all the choices become more open like making our own single/twin jet UCAV etc etc

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

INDIA, FRANCE AGREE TO FINALIZE RAFALE DEAL BY SPRING

NEW DELHI — India will fast-track the finalization of the US $12 billion plan to purchase 126 Dassault Rafale jets, according to a senior Indian Defense Ministry official, almost three years after India made Dassault its preferred bidder.

The news follows Monday evening talks between Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian.

The Indian MoD official refused to give details on how the two sides will resolve differences holding back the finalization of the negotiations in the run up to the inking of the contract. He did say that the two defense ministers agreed that all issues that are irritants will be sorted out by the end of this year so the deal can be finalized by the end of the financial year ending March 31.

The crucial issue that needs to be solved is the insistence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to give guarantee on the delivery schedule of the Rafales that will be license-produced at HAL. Another issue relates to bringing down the cost of Indian-made Rafales.

A second MoD official said the sides are discussing what currency will be used to purchase the 18 aircraft built by Dassault in France, and how HAL could be protected against currency fluctuations. The details are not known, but the two defense ministers agreed to accommodate each other to bring down the cost of the Indian-made aircraft.

The 2008 request for proposal for the jets stipulates that 18 aircraft will be bought in fly-by-wire condition and the remaining 108 will be built by HAL on a license-production basis.

Contract negotiations between India's MoD, HAL and Dassault of France have been underway since 2012, after the Rafale was selected as the preferred aircraft over the Eurofighter Typhoon. However, dozens of meetings between the Indian and French sides have failed to close the deal because the French have refused to give guarantees on the delivery schedule of the aicraft that will be produced in India.

India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[smestarz]

INDIA, FRANCE AGREE TO FINALIZE RAFALE DEAL BY SPRING

NEW DELHI — India will fast-track the finalization of the US $12 billion plan to purchase 126 Dassault Rafale jets, according to a senior Indian Defense Ministry official, almost three years after India made Dassault its preferred bidder.

The news follows Monday evening talks between Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian.

The Indian MoD official refused to give details on how the two sides will resolve differences holding back the finalization of the negotiations in the run up to the inking of the contract. He did say that the two defense ministers agreed that all issues that are irritants will be sorted out by the end of this year so the deal can be finalized by the end of the financial year ending March 31.

The crucial issue that needs to be solved is the insistence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to give guarantee on the delivery schedule of the Rafales that will be license-produced at HAL. Another issue relates to bringing down the cost of Indian-made Rafales.

A second MoD official said the sides are discussing what currency will be used to purchase the 18 aircraft built by Dassault in France, and how HAL could be protected against currency fluctuations. The details are not known, but the two defense ministers agreed to accommodate each other to bring down the cost of the Indian-made aircraft.

The 2008 request for proposal for the jets stipulates that 18 aircraft will be bought in fly-by-wire condition and the remaining 108 will be built by HAL on a license-production basis.

Contract negotiations between India's MoD, HAL and Dassault of France have been underway since 2012, after the Rafale was selected as the preferred aircraft over the Eurofighter Typhoon. However, dozens of meetings between the Indian and French sides have failed to close the deal because the French have refused to give guarantees on the delivery schedule of the aicraft that will be produced in India.

India, France Agree to Finalize Rafale Deal by Spring | Defense News | defensenews.com

You are quoting Dec 2014 story in March 2015 ? really? In past 3 months a lot has changed.Even the budget was announced without anything for rafale