Know Your 'Rafale'

[Dhairya Yadav]

So what do you think INFRA really is for production



You think they will be produced in floating air ?



You think aliens will make and deliver them ?



You think land plant such things wil not be required



i know this things dosent sound so sexy - but they are required





no if you have read the German offer they have offered to deliver 18 EFT immideately from thier own AF so as to get the training and familiarisation of IAF going



these will be replace with EFT as & when they are delivered



so there wont be any delay

you don't even know the meaning of infrastructure and its uses and here you are blabbering about rafale and ET ! This isn't a Paki forum, where such trolling is tolerated. Im not even gonna reply to your posts as they are bs and meaningless. I say it again, READ BEFORE WRITING .

 

[p2prada]

Rafale FCS limitaitions are +9 -3.5 g.
But, as on a F-18 you have an override switch, you can override these limitations fo short. Then you go to 11g.

Yeah, I'm aware of it.

(structural limit being 14g afaik, would need to refresh )

To achieve 11G you need much higher structural limit. Rafale's should be above 16G.

 

[Hari Sud]

May I add a little of my points in this MMRCA discussion so far.

Why are we getting into this such an expensive Rafale deal, when:

1. As Bharat Karnard says there is not much transfer of critical technologies by Rafale deal - he mentions Galium Nitride manufacture in India.
Impending MMRCA Waste - The New Indian Express

2. Pakistani Airforce is in worst shape which is stuck with 50 years old MIRAGE III and Chinese made copies of MIG -21, which unlike India have never been upgraded. PAF may have a few older version of F-16, which either cannot be upgraded to latest version or have been upgraded to an older version, still no match to Indian SU 30 MKI, MIG 29, Upgraded Mirages -2000 and soon to be introduced LCA-1. Even soon to be retired MIG-21 are far more superior then their Chinese copies.

Vintage Pakistani Air force Struggling to Stay in Air | idrw.org

3. Chinese talk more about stealth fighters and what not, but bulk of their airforce is still in the middle ages barring two hundred SU-27, which have never been upgraded. It is an out of date airforce good for propaganda purposes.

My point here is that if the adversary airforces are less and less modern, then why waste money in a haste.

Take a part of the money which will be saved by not buying Rafale and spend it on LCA-2. Take Swedish help and build a much improved LCA-2. The learning process will be so great that it will build a huge knowledge bank and save money. It fits clearly into Modi's vision of Make in India.

May be spend some saved money to build from ground up a better engine than Kaveri engine.

Remember all imported items especially from US, during the time of trouble are subject to sanctions. Your own technology cannot be sanctioned.

 

[Prometheus]

May I add a little of my points in this MMRCA discussion so far.

Why are we getting into this such an expensive Rafale deal, when:

1. As Bharat Karnard says there is not much transfer of critical technologies by Rafale deal - he mentions Galium Nitride manufacture in India.
Impending MMRCA Waste - The New Indian Express

2. Pakistani Airforce is in worst shape which is stuck with 50 years old MIRAGE III and Chinese made copies of MIG -21, which unlike India have never been upgraded. PAF may have a few older version of F-16, which either cannot be upgraded to latest version or have been upgraded to an older version, still no match to Indian SU 30 MKI, MIG 29, Upgraded Mirages -2000 and soon to be introduced LCA-1. Even soon to be retired MIG-21 are far more superior then their Chinese copies.

Vintage Pakistani Air force Struggling to Stay in Air | idrw.org

3. Chinese talk more about stealth fighters and what not, but bulk of their airforce is still in the middle ages barring two hundred SU-27, which have never been upgraded. It is an out of date airforce good for propaganda purposes.

My point here is that if the adversary airforces are less and less modern, then why waste money in a haste.

Take a part of the money which will be saved by not buying Rafale and spend it on LCA-2. Take Swedish help and build a much improved LCA-2. The learning process will be so great that it will build a huge knowledge bank and save money. It fits clearly into Modi's vision of Make in India.

May be spend some saved money to build from ground up a better engine than Kaveri engine.

Remember all imported items especially from US, during the time of trouble are subject to sanctions. Your own technology cannot be sanctioned.

As much as i dislike over spending in defense, I must say we must go ahead with the MMRCA deal as it is the single most important deal that will affect the future of the countries defense. Seriously, we dont mind spending billions of dollars on VIP choppers or the C17 gloab master, or the T-90 tanks or Apaches etc, but when it comes to buying fighters, we get cold feet. There are only two scenarios possible in the defense of not only India, but any other country in the world, as has been proven time and again in modern warfare, be it the gulf war or the indo-pak war.

1) The easy way, when you are more powerful then your enemy, in which case you need to have overwhelming air superiority, and the only way to do that is by having better and more numerous fighters, not bu having transport aircrafts or tanks.
2) The hard way, when you are weaker then your enemy( and u need to be prepared to loose a lot of blood), in which case you have to resort to Guerrilla warfare, where you are an hidden enemy, and all other military equipment is lost to enemy air superiority. So we should concentrate on buying/developing better small weapons like the Beretta and compact mobile weapons like man pads, stingers, better bulletproof vests, lighter and more advanced gear etc.
we should plan our defence the way small countries do. buy what is essential.... and not just pick up any and every thing that looks cool, or we need to have because of what we had earlier is getting old or outdated. I personally like the first scenario!.

every thing that we spend in between is a waste of time and money

 

[halloweene]

1. As Bharat Karnard says there is not much transfer of critical technologies by Rafale deal - he mentions Galium Nitride manufacture in India.
Impending MMRCA Waste - The New Indian Express

.

Read carefully Bharat Karnad article, it is a compendium of inaccuracies and mistakes, even contradicting itself. (eg. ASEA allows to switch between A2A and A2g (which is false in itself) to conclude buy more Tejas and MKI... Which do not have AESA).

The guy should stay within topics he knows.

 

[SajeevJino]

From the Chief of Air Staff

IS: Notwithstanding various alarmist views being aired from time
to time in the media, could you give an update on the current
status of the IAF's combat squadrons' strength? Would the IAF be
in a position to reach the oft-stated strength of 42 jet fighter
squadrons by the end of the 13th Plan (2022)?


CAS: The IAF's present strength of fighter squadrons falls short of
the sanctioned strength of combat squadrons. IAF has several
legacy squadrons of MiG-21 and MiG-27 which will retire over the
next decade. Therefore, early induction of LCA and MMRCA has
been planned for arresting the drawdown in the strength of fighter
squadrons. IAF is likely to have its sanctioned strength of combat
squadrons operational sooner than later.


IS: What is the latest on the long pending MMRCA deal? Is there a
possibility of the contract being signed in the current financial
year? If yes, when would the IAF likely get its first squadron of
Rafale jet fighters?


CAS: The MMRCA CNC is presently negotiating various aspects of
the contract with the L1 vendor, Dassault Aviation of France. The
negotiations are progressing well. The contract for 126 MMRCA is
expected to be signed sooner than later in the current FY 2014-15.

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Exclusive Interview: Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

I sure This interview shuts most of the mouths

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

From the Chief of Air Staff



..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Exclusive Interview: Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

I sure This interview shuts most of the mouths

the key is

ink on the paper

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

.

Read carefully Bharat Karnad article, it is a compendium of inaccuracies and mistakes, even contradicting itself. (eg. ASEA allows to switch between A2A and A2g (which is false in itself) to conclude buy more Tejas and MKI... Which do not have AESA).

The guy should stay within topics he knows.

does the Jaguar, Mirage Upgraded, Mig 29, Mig 21 have aesa ?

if AEsa was so important - why the mirage 2000 upgrades are being caried out without aesa even though it will serve IAF till 2040 ?

 

[Zebra]

does the Jaguar, Mirage Upgraded, Mig 29, Mig 21 have aesa ?

if AEsa was so important - why the mirage 2000 upgrades are being caried out without aesa even though it will serve IAF till 2040 ?

EL/M-2052 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

EL/M-2052 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

is it being used in the upgrades ?

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

EL/M-2052 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

is it being used in the upgrades ?

Israel bars AESA radar export to India

The Israeli defence ministry has blocked the potential export sale of Israel Aerospace Industries' EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array radar to a number of countries, with its action having an immediate impact on the Indian market.

The restrictions were imposed following pressure from the US administration, which has outlined its concerns to Israel several times in the past two years.

Washington's position is driven by an assumption that exporting IAI's advanced radar would undermine the sale of US-made systems on the international stage, sources say.

At one stage, Saab had considered offering the EL/M-2052 as part of its Gripen NG proposal for the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement, but instead opted for Selex Galileo's ES05 Raven AESA.

IAI had also viewed the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency's Tejas light combat aircraft as a potential candidate for the AESA radar. The modular design weighs 130-180kg (286-397lb) and consumes 4-10kVA, depending on the design configuration, and has built-in growth potential, the company says.

Developed by IAI's Elta Systems subsidiary, the EL/M-2052 uses an array of solid-state transmit/receive modules designed to dynamically shape the radiation pattern using an ultra-low side-lobe antenna. It can perform simultaneous multi-mode operations, detecting airborne threats and supporting navigation and mapping, by producing high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery.

The sensor can detect and track up to 64 airborne targets from long range, and enable a pilot to engage several simultaneously using air-to-air missiles, IAI says. The sensor can also provide long-range target detection, classification and tracking in the anti-ship role.

Israel bars AESA radar export to India - 1/11/2011 - Flight Global

 

[ersakthivel]

From the Chief of Air Staff



..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: Exclusive Interview: Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

I sure This interview shuts most of the mouths

It is the cost negotiations which have ballooned significantly from the original estimate of 10 billion which is holding up the deal.

Also dassualt's vote of no confidence on HAL added to the discomfort.

http://idrw.org/?p=44818

This article says that tejas has a range of 850 Km.

IAF air marshals are saying that rafale has thrice the range of tejas.

Then does rafale has a 2500 Km range with weapons?

ALso aHAL poster in aeroindia 2013 said that tejas mk1 has a max endurance of 2hrs 30 minutes.

Does rafale has 7.5 hr max endurance.

if so why did two french rafales during their flight from france to indian ocean reunion islands with light weapon load and two external fuel tanks took 5 refuellings to cross 10500 km distance in a 10.5 hour flight?

if we take into account the fact that the fighters should have full fuel during take off. It means rafale needed 6 total fuel loads of internal fuels + 2 full external fuel tanks for the 10500 Km 10.5 hour long flight.

What is the endurance and range of rafale?

 

[Zebra]

is it being used in the upgrades ?

Not sure.

Reason is, I am not happy with Mirage and Jaguar upgrades and didn't take much interest in it.

Upgrade of those old aircrafts are like waste of resources.

But I saw it on EL/M-2052 wiki page, that it is suitable for Mirage-2000 also. That's why I post it here.

 

[Zebra]

Double post.

 

[Zebra]

Israel bars AESA radar export to India

The Israeli defence ministry has blocked the potential export sale of Israel Aerospace Industries' EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array radar to a number of countries, with its action having an immediate impact on the Indian market.

Israel bars AESA radar export to India - 1/11/2011 - Flight Global

OK. Let it be this one then. EL/M-2032 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

OK. Let it be this one then. EL/M-2032 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yep thats the one already been discussed on tejas thread

regarding mirage upgrades the below links is one of the good sources of entire saga and don't quote wiki yaar anybody can right anything they want on wiki not a credible source

India's Fighter Upgrades: Mirage 2000s Grounded Parts, Waiting Upgrades

 

[halloweene]

Exactly my point. e.g. He states that AESA allow switch from A2A to A2G modes... Hopefully noone waited for AESA to do so...

 

[halloweene]

Upgrades performance are nominal afaik. But shhh

 

[Zebra]

Israel bars AESA radar export to India

The Israeli defence ministry has blocked the potential export sale of Israel Aerospace Industries' EL/M-2052 active electronically scanned array radar to a number of countries, with its action having an immediate impact on the Indian market.

The restrictions were imposed following pressure from the US administration, which has outlined its concerns to Israel several times in the past two years.

Washington's position is driven by an assumption that exporting IAI's advanced radar would undermine the sale of US-made systems on the international stage, sources say.

At one stage, Saab had considered offering the EL/M-2052 as part of its Gripen NG proposal for the Indian air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement, but instead opted for Selex Galileo's ES05 Raven AESA.

IAI had also viewed the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency's Tejas light combat aircraft as a potential candidate for the AESA radar. The modular design weighs 130-180kg (286-397lb) and consumes 4-10kVA, depending on the design configuration, and has built-in growth potential, the company says.

Developed by IAI's Elta Systems subsidiary, the EL/M-2052 uses an array of solid-state transmit/receive modules designed to dynamically shape the radiation pattern using an ultra-low side-lobe antenna. It can perform simultaneous multi-mode operations, detecting airborne threats and supporting navigation and mapping, by producing high-resolution synthetic aperture radar imagery.

The sensor can detect and track up to 64 airborne targets from long range, and enable a pilot to engage several simultaneously using air-to-air missiles, IAI says. The sensor can also provide long-range target detection, classification and tracking in the anti-ship role.

Israel bars AESA radar export to India - 1/11/2011 - Flight Global

ISRAEL & IN FOCUS: AESA radar emerges from US export shadow - 1/20/2014 - Flight Global

But something has happened in the past year to break a perceived US block on the export of Israel's AESA technology. Either the USA has loosened its policy, or Israel has found applications for AESA radar that do not threaten the strategic or industrial interests of its military benefactor.

IAI executives have confirmed to Flightglobal that the X-band EL/M-2052 AESA radar for fighters is not only for sale, but has been sold to two export customers.

"It's in production for two foreign customers," says Igo Licht, director of sales and marketing for Elta.

Licht declines to identify the customers or fighter types involved in the sales contracts. IAI has described the EL/M-2052 as generally suitable for single-engined aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-16, Northrop F-5, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, IAI Kfir Block 60 and the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas light combat aircraft.

:thumb:

 

[halloweene]

Well a Feasability study for next gen RBE2 AESA has just been launched...