Know Your 'Rafale'

[sesha_maruthi27]

The French Rafale Fighter aircraft that India is planning to buy, in what is being billed as the largest defence purchase by the country - "will be swatted like mosquitos in an August night," says Russian Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin.

Mr Kadadin also claimed that Sukhoi-27 - aircraft manufactured in Russia that are supplied to China's People's Liberation Army (Air Force )- are far more capable and advanced than the Rafale fighters.

Incidentally, Russian-made MiG- 35, as well as US-made F-16s & F- 18, Swedish-made SAAB Gripin and French-made Rafale were the key competitors for the defence contract. After a long and detailed evaluation, the IAF had selected the French-made Rafale Fighter jets to replace its ageing and depleting fleet. The deal is likely to cost India a whopping $23 billion.

Going on to question India's strategic forays with the Unites States and the erstwhile 'Western Bloc', the Russian Ambassador said the US has "transferred zero technology to India".

Russia, historically, has been a key strategic partner of India and the main supplier of weapon systems. But, in the last decade, India has increasingly looked towards Israel and US to meet its defence requirements. The shift, no doubt, has peeved Russia.

These issues are likely to dominate the summit-level talks between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi. President Putin is scheduled to visit India on December 11.

Russia is expected to push India to source conventional submarines from them. Submarines are key to the strategy of "Sea Denial" - preventing warships of adversaries from accessing specific areas in the sea. India has only eight functional conventional submarines.

Rafale Fighters India is Buying Can't Match Chinese Fighters: Russian Envoy

If this is true then why go for RAFALE?

 

[Zebra]

Well a Feasability study for next gen RBE2 AESA has just been launched...

Well, feel free to share it here then. If you don't mind, please.

 

[kumar2310s]

The French Rafale Fighter aircraft that India is planning to buy, in what is being billed as the largest defence purchase by the country - "will be swatted like mosquitos in an August night," says Russian Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin.

Mr Kadadin also claimed that Sukhoi-27 - aircraft manufactured in Russia that are supplied to China's People's Liberation Army (Air Force )- are far more capable and advanced than the Rafale fighters.

Incidentally, Russian-made MiG- 35, as well as US-made F-16s & F- 18, Swedish-made SAAB Gripin and French-made Rafale were the key competitors for the defence contract. After a long and detailed evaluation, the IAF had selected the French-made Rafale Fighter jets to replace its ageing and depleting fleet. The deal is likely to cost India a whopping $23 billion.

Going on to question India's strategic forays with the Unites States and the erstwhile 'Western Bloc', the Russian Ambassador said the US has "transferred zero technology to India".

Russia, historically, has been a key strategic partner of India and the main supplier of weapon systems. But, in the last decade, India has increasingly looked towards Israel and US to meet its defence requirements. The shift, no doubt, has peeved Russia.

These issues are likely to dominate the summit-level talks between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi. President Putin is scheduled to visit India on December 11.

Russia is expected to push India to source conventional submarines from them. Submarines are key to the strategy of "Sea Denial" - preventing warships of adversaries from accessing specific areas in the sea. India has only eight functional conventional submarines.



If this is true then why go for RAFALE?

It is also rightly said that if you look at the past, Russia has transferred technology also. But US/Europe are yet to prove the technology transfers. Is it not possible that because of the cost escalation from 10 Billion $ to a huge sum now, cant this order be reduced to half and rest be invested in Sukhoi provided Russia transfer's the technology and enter into a co-development agreement with india as in Brahmos missile deal with Greater rights?

Presently Russia is going through hard times on Ukrain issue. If india can leverage this situation and make some good futuristic deals that can strenghten india vis-a-vis China in immediate future, it will be the best thing to do.

What do you suggest?

 

[SajeevJino]

Mr Kadadin also claimed that Sukhoi-27 - aircraft manufactured in Russia that are supplied to China's People's Liberation Army (Air Force )- are far more capable and advanced than the Rafale fighters.

So how many Su 27 Directly delivered to China..Will they Add some Supa Dupa Technology To Beat Rafale and other IAF Fighter

India Floated a Multirole Fighter Tender ..Mr Kadakin Knows about that or Not

 

[kumar2310s]

I dont trust the french. We are giving French the ability to arm twist india. They have failed to deliver in Indian Navy Scorpian deal. It should be an indicator what may happen with Raphale in future. We are compromising on our future capabilities by depending on Raphale. In Scorpion deal French drafted the agreement in such a way that it deliberately left out critical components. Similarly i believe i cannot trust the French.

 

[kumar2310s]

India should come up with a policy of denying any major arms contracts to countries who have failed to deliver in the past. This would be a lesson to French to first deliver Indian Navy on Scorpion deal.

 

[halloweene]

Well, feel free to share it here then. If you don't mind, please.

Google translate. (btw i'm not the author, but i write regularly for this site)

Google Translate

 

[halloweene]

Google translate. (btw i'm not the author, but i write regularly for this site)

Google Translate

Well Casper, we are discussing so as to launch an english version or not. If you (and other friends) can borwse the site using the google translate button andd give your opinion about it...

The idea is would you be genuinely interested as an indian reader or is too french centric? Because translating many articles is a huge job...

 

[sgarg]

Wonderful discussion about a never-ending negotiation. A final selection is based on a financial bid, not on technical parameters. Now it is closing three years in financial negotiations after finalist is declared.

People are discussing nitty-gritty of tendering process. This discussion is meaningless.

The basics are very clear. Just focus on the basics. If you call a tender, the parameters must be clear right from day one to all parties called for tender. Whatever local production, TOT etc. you want, it has to be clear from day one.

If a certain party does not agree to your terms, that party get dropped from the selection process.

It is not about "IAF management of the Rafale deal" but about "IAF management of MMRCA tender".

I keep my fingers crossed. I know that vested interests will keep pushing a fighter that India does not need.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

This is done in order to split the contract if L1 says they cannot deliver goods in time. But L2 will also have to deliver the goods at the same price as L1. And L2 will also have to provide full ToT and industrial production. That won't be acceptable to L2 of course. There is L3, L4 and so on as long as technical requirements are fulfilled. That's why in the assault rifle tender 4 competitors were chosen for bids (1 dropped out), instead of two. Now, L1, L2 and L3 will be determined.

this is flawed logic

Splitting the order between L1 and L2 will mean 2 more product lines , logistics line, 2 set of maintenance teams , crews etc

aslo ti will mena 2 set of production lines, suppliers, tooling sets etc which will simply increase the costs

this is flawed logic and flawed explanation

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

interestingly

the corruption story in Rafale deal was floated by none other than Subbu Swamu - and in cases of corruption etc no one dares to file a defamation case against him

he has been ridiculed for his claims but he has always proven right by the courts later

 

[Immanuel]

^^^^

Indeed, if the deal is investigated by the CBI, I am pretty sure the truth will out. But at this stage will they do this? This will kill MRCA, not to mention probably show Dassault didn't really play it Kosher on this one. It will also have impacts on all Dassault deals. I think the Govt. will clearly focus on wrapping up this deal unless Dassault doesn't budge on price and the cost thereof is horrendous enough for Modi sahab to pull the kill switch. There is plenty of pressure on Govt. from IAF. But, all is not well regardless of what P2P says, the deal is not done till its done and as of now, its still 50/50.

 

[sgarg]

With Russia's estrangement with the West, it is time for India to choose.

India cannot continue to put its foot in two different boats. It will have to leave one boat.

The relations between Russia and NATO are deteriorating at a fast pace. It seems Ukraine government is going for one more offensive against NovoRussia. A breakout of fighting in winter was not thought of but looks like a possibility now.

We are no more in normal times.

The best course for India is to achieve independence in aircraft production and tank production (along with ammunition and weapons). Dependence on foreign countries is fraught with risks.

The problem with Ukraine situation is that its is turning into a direct east-west confrontation; a situation not planned by India at all.

 

[sgarg]

Subramanyam Swamy on Rafale:

"No country outside France has so far bought the Rafale. Some countries had shortlisted it, but rejected it later. We must find out why they did so. We must also know why it is so much more expensive than the other competitors. With the kind of money India has pledged to buy the planes, it can actually buy over the entire company that makes them. Moreover, there are also reports that it is trying to win the contract by giving a subcontract to an influential Indian industrialist. In addition, its performance in terms of fuel consumption etc was much higher and unimpressive during the recent Libyan campaign.

So what should be done about the Rafale deal?

I had written to the UPA defence minister A.K. Antony citing reports and the information on the Sonia Gandhi family's link with Carla Bruni. Being an honorable man sensitive about his image and reputation, Antony had frozen negotiations with Rafale. I am not sure why Arun Jaitley decided to defreeze it.

The BJP's in power. Will you ask for Rafale deal to be scrapped?

We have a party meeting coming up in a few days. I will raise the issue not only with defence minister Jaitley but also with PM Narendra Modi. I'll definitely bring it to their notice."

 

[sgarg]

Somebody blamed me for my lack of patriotism in one of the threads. Patriotic are those who carry out their duty and responsibility with utmost sincerity and devotion.

People who play in the hands of foreign powers and hurt India's people and economy cannot be called patriotic.

I am 100% certain that Rafale will not make even 1% difference to India's security. It is the most unnecessary purchase. What is needed is to build LCA Tejas in large numbers. The Tejas numbers needs to ramp up to at least 30 per year, to satisfy IAF and IN needs.

The funds need to go into two very urgent projects - air-to-air missiles and smart munitions where India needs large manufacturing capacity.

LCA tejas has decent growth potential because we have the designers who understand this plane. The success of LCA Tejas will lead to next successful fighter project, and perhaps next successful long range bomber. This is how this building is to be built - brick by brick.

 

[pmaitra]

Somebody blamed me for my lack of patriotism in one of the threads. Patriotic are those who carry out their duty and responsibility with utmost sincerity and devotion.

People who play in the hands of foreign powers and hurt India's people and economy cannot be called patriotic.

I am 100% certain that Rafale will not make even 1% difference to India's security. It is the most unnecessary purchase. What is needed is to build LCA Tejas in large numbers. The Tejas numbers needs to ramp up to at least 30 per year, to satisfy IAF and IN needs.

The funds need to go into two very urgent projects - air-to-air missiles and smart munitions where India needs large manufacturing capacity.

LCA tejas has decent growth potential because we have the designers who understand this plane. The success of LCA Tejas will lead to next successful fighter project, and perhaps next successful long range bomber. This is how this building is to be built - brick by brick.

So someone played the patriotism card on you? It has happened to me as well. One should be able to argue his point. When they cannot make points, they play all kinds of cards.

 

[jaci07]

Somebody blamed me for my lack of patriotism in one of the threads. Patriotic are those who carry out their duty and responsibility with utmost sincerity and devotion.

People who play in the hands of foreign powers and hurt India's people and economy cannot be called patriotic.

I am 100% certain that Rafale will not make even 1% difference to India's security. It is the most unnecessary purchase. What is needed is to build LCA Tejas in large numbers. The Tejas numbers needs to ramp up to at least 30 per year, to satisfy IAF and IN needs.

The funds need to go into two very urgent projects - air-to-air missiles and smart munitions where India needs large manufacturing capacity.

LCA tejas has decent growth potential because we have the designers who understand this plane. The success of LCA Tejas will lead to next successful fighter project, and perhaps next successful long range bomber. This is how this building is to be built - brick by brick.

Oh really!!!
Rafale has shot down us air force best warplane f-22.
Some of the best features of rafales are:-
1:-An intelligent flight suit worn by the Rafale pilot is automatically controlled by the aircraft to counteract in response to calculated g-forces.
2:- Among the features of the highly digitised cockpit is an integrated direct voice input (DVI) system, allowing a range of aircraft functions to be controlled by spoken voice commands, simplifying the pilot's access to many of the controls.
3:- An on-board oxygen generating system, developed by Air Liquide, eliminates the need to carry bulky oxygen canisters
4:- The Rafale's fight computer has been programmed to counteract pilot disorientation and to employ automatic recovery of the aircraft during negative flight conditions
5:- In the area of life-support, the Rafale is fitted with a Martin-Baker Mark 16F "zero-zero" ejection seat, capable of operation at zero speed and zero altitude

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[Immanuel]

Oh really!!!
Rafale has shot down us air force best warplane f-22.
Some of the best features of rafales are:-
1:-An intelligent flight suit worn by the Rafale pilot is automatically controlled by the aircraft to counteract in response to calculated g-forces.
2:- Among the features of the highly digitised cockpit is an integrated direct voice input (DVI) system, allowing a range of aircraft functions to be controlled by spoken voice commands, simplifying the pilot's access to many of the controls.
3:- An on-board oxygen generating system, developed by Air Liquide, eliminates the need to carry bulky oxygen canisters
4:- The Rafale's fight computer has been programmed to counteract pilot disorientation and to employ automatic recovery of the aircraft during negative flight conditions
5:- In the area of life-support, the Rafale is fitted with a Martin-Baker Mark 16F "zero-zero" ejection seat, capable of operation at zero speed and zero altitude

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Really of all the nice things you can say about Rafale, you find OBOGS? and Ejection Seats?

Rafale's key aspects are good payload, good situational awareness range (debatable), Rafale shot the F-22 in dogfight (any aircraft can, EF/SH also have dogfight kills of the F-22). Superhornet is the only one to have a WVR Aim-120 Kill on the Raptor.

Rafale's flight computer could be programmed to counteract disoreitnation but there was still a fatal crash due to pilot disorientation first Rafale crash was due to a G induced pilot blackout.

These discussions here have been ongoing for years and have been detailed to death, please bring better arguments.

 

[jaci07]

Really of all the nice things you can say about Rafale, you find OBOGS? and Ejection Seats?

Rafale's key aspects are good payload, good situational awareness range (debatable), Rafale shot the F-22 in dogfight (any aircraft can, EF/SH also have dogfight kills of the F-22). Superhornet is the only one to have a WVR Aim-120 Kill on the Raptor.

Rafale's flight computer could be programmed to counteract disoreitnation but there was still a fatal crash due to pilot disorientation first Rafale crash was due to a G induced pilot blackout.

These discussions here have been ongoing for years and have been detailed to death, please bring better arguments.

Lol you want information read this

The Rafale can carry more ordnance than any of its competitors, hands down. The Air Force variants (B and C) have 14, and the Navy (M) variant, 13 hardpoints. By contrast, the F-35 can carry only 4 munitions (e.g. missiles) while in its stealthy mode; the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and the F-16 can carry only 11, and the Su-35 twelve.

For air-to-air combat, the Rafale's two principal missiles are the MBDA's MICA (Missile d'Interception, de Combat et d'Autodefense) and Meteor. The MICA is intended for short and medium range combat, with a nominal range of 80 kms, and has both electromagnetic and infrared seekers. The Meteor, with a 160 km range, is a radar-guided long-range (Beyond Visual Range) ramjet-powered missile similar to the American AIM-120D AMRAAM. The principal difference, of course, is the Meteor's ramjet engine. The French MOD has already ordered 200 such missiles.

This diversity of missiles and seekers will allow a Rafale pilot to saturate his opponent in combat with a salvo of 3 different missiles at once (and remember, the Rafale can carry 13-14 missiles in total). This means his opponent, forced to duck one of the missiles, would be detected by another missile's seeker, and thus be shot down.

Furthermore, the Rafale has the biggest gun on the market (ex aequo with Sukhoi aircraft): a hefty 30mm GIAT gun firing incendiary rounds. This makes the Rafale an excellent choice for both air to air and air to ground combat, as its 30mm rounds would provide excellent support for troops on the ground. 30mm is the caliber of the guns of most APCs and IFVs.

For air to ground combat, the Rafale can carry the GBU-12 and GBU-49 Paveway II, the GBU-24 Paveway III, the Sagem AASM bomb (with a range of 55 meters and a CEP of less than 1 meter, designed to attack both static and mobile targets), the MBDA Apache and Scalp-EG cruise missiles (designed for attacking targets such as the runways of heavily defended airfields from a distance outside the range of their air defense systems), the Exocet AM39 anti-ship transonic cruise missile, and the forementioned ASMP and ASMP-A stealthy nuclear-armed cruise missiles.

In short, the Rafale can carry a wide range of weapons, and perform air to air, air to ground, and air to sea combat well.

In particular, its Exocet missiles would, in any anti-ship battle, prove very deadly, as they did when launched by Argentine A-4 Skyhawks against British warships during the 1982 Falklands War. The warships of virtually all navies of the world are currently poorly prepared for the ASCM threat.

The Rafale's two principal sensors are the Thales RBE2 ESA radar and the Thales/SAGEM OSF (Optronique Spherique Frontal) infrared search and tracking system (IRST system).

The Dassault Rafale is a relatively small, light airplane. Therefore, it isn't surprising that its wing loading ratio (the ratio of its weight compared to its wingspace) is just 306 kg/sq m, the second lowest ratio on the market after the JAS-39 Gripen. Its combat radius is also impressive – 1,852 kilometers, again, the second-best in the market trailing only the F-15C/D. The Rafale also has an excellent rate of climb – 304 m/s, i.e. 60,000 ft/min. This means the plane can climb to its service ceiling (55,000 ft) in a minute.

The plane's two SNECMA MM-2 turbofan engines provide a dry thrust of 50.4 kN each, or 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each on afterburner. This gives the plane a very good thrust/weight ratio of 0.988:1 in full combat load – unheard of for a modern fighter, and fully competitive even with 5th generation American, Russian, and Chinese fighters.

The one thing that somewhat lets the Rafale down – other than its 55,000 ft ceiling – is its speed of Mach 1.8, compared to Mach 2 or more for most other fighters. However, its principal competitor, the F-35, is worse at just Mach 1.61 and 43,000 ft. Moreover, it is not a mechanical flaw, but rather the product of a deliberate design aimed to optimise the Rafale for the by far predominant

I am just talking about advantages of rafale you s*uc*e*

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[SajeevJino]

What happened stupid piece of blank shit.
Come on give me some challenge.
I think you are a smart guy but i guess i am wrong.

Take it easy and Be cool in Discussion ...!!