Know Your 'Rafale'

[arya]

we still talking but nothing on ground i means no contract singed ..

when we will stop talking and start action

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

None of those.

IAF has always wanted Rafale. L1 is a disease created by the UPA.

no IAF wanted Mirage 2000 after kargil
rafale was not even in the fray till 2006

if IAf want Rafale That is IAF problem

what India needs a capable air craft - both EFT & rafel are capable

India needs capable AC not rafale specifically

EF fulfills all the MRCA requirements since the aircraft was shortlisted, just that Rafale is simply the better aircraft. As far as MRCA is concerned, IAF got the aircraft that they wanted at the cheapest price possible. So the program itself is a success as long as it is signed and delivered.

IAF got lucky that Rafale was cheaper than EF.

EFT cleared the parameters so okay it can be considered if it is cheaper we should buy it

no IAF is not lucky they played hanky panky by keeping 60+ odd items out of the calculations + 2 member have already noted objection to the way of calculating the L1
Let's just accept that you don't know what you are talking about.

And EF is more expensive. That was already established. There is no discount. And after we learned about the manufacturing defects, it seems like they are throwing their aircraft away. They are trying to cheat us. Are you that naive?

Rafale was cheaper due to hanky panky in calculation costs and keeping many items out of the calculations

Now EFT has made a cheaper offer lets go for it

FGFA isn't meant to penetrate air defenses at 100 feet like Rafale is. FGFA/MKI/EF have different roles. Rafale/Jaguar/Mig-27 have different roles. The only difference being Rafale is capable of air superiority roles as well.

hahaha Rafale meant to penetrate air defences at 100 feet
the best out there is Su34 for that role again better than Rafale and again can handle Air superiority and CHEAPER

Who said we only needed range? MRCA had 643 parameters, range is just one of them. Can you explain how Su-34 will fulfill all 643 parameters?

without puttiing them thru the tests how can you say they will fail ?

We need a second supply line. How does MKI or Su-34 create a second supply line? Explain.

Indegenous products will give us second line - LCA / AMCA

also we can create 2nd line in Su34 - different engines than those used on Su30MKI
Different radars

also if we are using french avionics on Su30Mki and again french avionics on Rafale and then parts commonality with mirage 2000 upgrades then how can we really say that there are two clear different lines?

MRCA came with a 30 tonnes MTOW limit. Su-30/34 was never a requirement. The first rule of the MRCA was, we don't want Su-30/34. So keep both aircraft out of the discussion.

that was simply a condition built in so that Su30 Su34 could be kept out and Rafale can win

The M-2000s will be out of service by 2030-35, Rafales will see service until 2050 or 2060.

by that time we will have our own AMCA / FGFA

MKI isn't capable of nuclear strike missions.

Super Su30MKi are capable - rest can be configured not difficult



Ever heard of the term nuclear triad?

We need multiple options for nuclear delivery and this includes a strike package based on fighter jets.

Rafale is a done deal. EF has no chance for making a comeback. Get over it.[/QUOTE]

I am damn sure that if this Govt signs Rafale deal ignoring the EFT discount it can kiss goodbye to 2019 elections

 

[p2prada]

no IAF wanted Mirage 2000 after kargil
rafale was not even in the fray till 2006

if IAf want Rafale That is IAF problem

what India needs a capable air craft - both EFT & rafel are capable

India needs capable AC not rafale specifically

India needs Rafale specifically. India needed Mirage-2000 specifically, and that changed to Rafale since threat perceptions have changed. Requirements change every few years.

The Chinese have become the third country in the world to have an operationally deployed AESA radar on a fighter jet. J-10 is operationally deployed with AESA. Both J-11 and J-16 will have AESA radars. We were ahead of the Chinese just two years ago, and now they beat us by a few years.

EFT cleared the parameters so okay it can be considered if it is cheaper we should buy it

EF wasn't cheaper. Why don't you try and understand that fact? Are you unable to understand simple sentences?

Expert View - French Rafale lowest bidder in India | Reuters

India has selected France's Rafale combat jet as cheapest bidder in a competition to buy 126 fighters and will enter exclusive negotiations with manufacturer Dassault Aviation for a deal worth up to $15 billion, Indian government sources said.

Where is the proof that EF is cheaper now? Go look at Germany's government audit. It is already worth 60 Billion Euros for 140 aircraft and you are complaining about $22 Billion for Rafale. Halloweene has already posted the link. And that 60 billion does not even cover day to day expenses in maintaining the aircraft. The Luftwaffe has to pay for all that out of their own pockets.

According to UK's NAO, the cost of Typhoon will be 37 Billion Pounds or $60 Billion for just 160 aircraft. And this price was from 2011.

2011:
BBC News - Raf Typhoon: 'Bad planning' added billions to jet costs

The National Audit Office (NAO) estimates that each individual aircraft is now 75% more expensive than originally anticipated.

Billions added to RAF typhoon costs - Home News - UK - The Independent

Altogether the National Audit Office estimates that each individual aircraft is 75% - or £55 million - more expensive than originally anticipated and the total programme cost will eventually hit £37 billion.

If you look at the sticker price, then for 160 aircraft at $60 Billion, that's $375 Million per jet.

Rafale's latest price was revealed by the French Senate only last year. Halloweene posted the link in the previous page. The cost will be around 46 Billion Euros for 286 jets, that's $60 Billion or $209 Million per jet.

In every single tender, Typhoon was exceedingly more expensive than Rafale. Rafale's unit price was actually quite close to Gripen's costs. So that demonstrates how well the French have controlled prices while still delivering better capability.

If we buy the Typhoon, then it will cost us something like $40 or $50 billion just to buy and operate them, while Rafale will cost just half that. The Typhoon program is a major failure in terms of costs involved. And you want to be part of it.

You have to be utterly stupid to believe Typhoon is cheaper. Typhoon's costs almost rival the F-22 now. In a few years, it may even exceed the F-22 considering the Typhoon is still not fully developed.

no IAF is not lucky they played hanky panky by keeping 60+ odd items out of the calculations

That's not how it works. Those 60+ items were not part of the initial bid. It is all part of the tender process.

You all keep claiming IAF keeps changing requirements. And here you actually get surprised when requirement changes suddenly become part of Rafale also. Changing requirements obviously costs more money, and IAF is willing to pay for it, be it a foreign program or a homegrown program.

+ 2 member have already noted objection to the way of calculating the L1

Money came into the picture only after Rafale and EF were shortlisted. If there was an objection, then only EADS can object to L1. Which other contender was shortlisted for them to object? Or did Dassault themselves object to their L1 bid? No research, nothing. Typical illiterate just braying away to glory.

Now EFT has made a cheaper offer lets go for it

Are you some kind of auction whore? What about the 3 years in contract negotiations? What about the cost of setting up numerous contracts for production? What about the numerous JVs that are being negotiated today? HAL has already started building infrastructure for Rafale.

hahaha Rafale meant to penetrate air defences at 100 feet
the best out there is Su34 for that role again better than Rafale and again can handle Air superiority and CHEAPER

Su-34 isn't cheaper. It costs over $50 million for one sortie a day. Rafale costs $90 Million and can handle 2-3 sorties a day. Rafale is cheaper in operation.

without puttiing them thru the tests how can you say they will fail ?

Su-34 will fail on the first parameter itself. It is over 30 tonnes MTOW. It is not even eligible for tests. IAF has no requirement for Su-34. It is pointless. IAF doesn't want another heavy aircraft.

Indegenous products will give us second line - LCA / AMCA

Learn what is the meaning of supply line before making sweeping statements that make no sense.

LCA is not high end. It is far from ready. Mk2 is yet to have its first flight. AMCA is meant for post 2030. What about the period between 2015 and 2030?

also we can create 2nd line in Su34 - different engines than those used on Su30MKI
Different radars

You create a second supply line by switching countries. Sukhoi is just one supply line. Dassault will be our second.

I am damn sure that if this Govt signs Rafale deal ignoring the EFT discount it can kiss goodbye to 2019 elections

Yeah, yeah.

 

[power_monger]

Yes. Well trained pilots can pull up to 12G. Astronauts pull 17G when the rocket escape system is activated. When pilots eject from aircraft, they are pulling close to 25G.

Pic of Rafale pulling 10G.

12G..Now thats surprising to me. Wikipedia and Source provided by casper also states that maximum of 9g can pulled by a well trained pilot and that too with G suite.Can you prove your point through any reference.

I still re-iterate,anything above 9G is certified waste for a fighter jet simply because pilots cannot endure it.

 

[p2prada]

12G..Now thats surprising to me. Wikipedia and Source provided by casper also states that maximum of 9g can pulled by a well trained pilot and that too with G suite.Can you prove your point through any reference.

I still re-iterate,anything above 9G is certified waste for a fighter jet simply because pilots cannot endure it.

I already posted a pic of a Rafale pilot pulling 10G on Rafale. That's 1G more than the "supposed" limit.

Here is a pilot pulling 11.2G.

This guy easily manages 12G.
And claims he's done this 50 times.

Here's an interesting article.
Physiological Effects of Positive G Forces

Naturally a lot of the latest advancements in G suits is still not known due to obvious reasons. The Russians are developing a G-suit + space suit for PAKFA.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

India needs Rafale specifically. India needed Mirage-2000 specifically, and that changed to Rafale since threat perceptions have changed. Requirements change every few years.

The Chinese have become the third country in the world to have an operationally deployed AESA radar on a fighter jet. J-10 is operationally deployed with AESA. Both J-11 and J-16 will have AESA radars. We were ahead of the Chinese just two years ago, and now they beat us by a few years.

according to IAF both EFT and Rafale meet their requirements

if you want rafale purchased it is different thing - go buy wiht your money for yourself

you mean EFT does not have AESA radar ?

and we should buy rafale only because of AESA?
no other AC except rafale has AESA ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

EF wasn't cheaper. Why don't you try and understand that fact? Are you unable to understand simple sentences?

Expert View - French Rafale lowest bidder in India | Reuters


Where is the proof that EF is cheaper now? Go look at Germany's government audit. It is already worth 60 Billion Euros for 140 aircraft and you are complaining about $22 Billion for Rafale. Halloweene has already posted the link. And that 60 billion does not even cover day to day expenses in maintaining the aircraft. The Luftwaffe has to pay for all that out of their own pockets.

According to UK's NAO, the cost of Typhoon will be 37 Billion Pounds or $60 Billion for just 160 aircraft. And this price was from 2011.

2011:
BBC News - Raf Typhoon: 'Bad planning' added billions to jet costs


Billions added to RAF typhoon costs - Home News - UK - The Independent


If you look at the sticker price, then for 160 aircraft at $60 Billion, that's $375 Million per jet.

Rafale's latest price was revealed by the French Senate only last year. Halloweene posted the link in the previous page. The cost will be around 46 Billion Euros for 286 jets, that's $60 Billion or $209 Million per jet.

In every single tender, Typhoon was exceedingly more expensive than Rafale. Rafale's unit price was actually quite close to Gripen's costs. So that demonstrates how well the French have controlled prices while still delivering better capability.

If we buy the Typhoon, then it will cost us something like $40 or $50 billion just to buy and operate them, while Rafale will cost just half that. The Typhoon program is a major failure in terms of costs involved. And you want to be part of it.

You have to be utterly stupid to believe Typhoon is cheaper. Typhoon's costs almost rival the F-22 now. In a few years, it may even exceed the F-22 considering the Typhoon is still not fully developed.

that was then in 2012

now in 2014 Germany is offering EFT cheaper than Rafale

I am interested

---- rafale / dasault

Buy EFT IF germans offer it cheaper

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

That's not how it works. Those 60+ items were not part of the initial bid. It is all part of the tender process.

why were they not part of the bid ?

if they were not part of the bid and added later it always gives chance to vendor to jack up the costs of those items ?

why the IAF purposefully kept those items out of the bid ?

all these years in all contracts this is the way our imported air force has been playing the favourites and doing corruption

these Imported Air force has become corrupt bastards

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You all keep claiming IAF keeps changing requirements. And here you actually get surprised when requirement changes suddenly become part of Rafale also. Changing requirements obviously costs more money, and IAF is willing to pay for it, be it a foreign program or a homegrown program.

The surprising part is

whatever new requirement is put forawrd and rafale has it

it is not because dasault develops it over night

what happens is

Dasault develops something - it gets coomunicated to corrupt bastards in Imported Air Force

tehn they come up with a new requirement which can only be fulfiiled bu these rafale features

then they put it up to dasault

then dasault says yes Rafale can fulfill it and then this becomes a part of 60+ items not put in the initial bid

also the price gets jacked up

Obviously IAF is willing to pay

they dont have to earn to pay ..

they dont have to pay from thier own pockets

and higher the price more kickbacks these corrupt bastards will receive


These -------s didnt give 1000 crore to HAL as advance for Tejas

but they will give 15000 crore adavnce to dasault

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

And that 60 billion does not even cover day to day expenses in maintaining the aircraft. The Luftwaffe has to pay for all that out of their own pockets.

what gutter logic statement you are making

you mean to say if we buy rafale for 25 billion $

then it will include day to day operating costs also for 30 years lifecycle ?

all fuels spareparts manpower costs electricity for hangers etc all day to day operting costs are included in 25Billion$ for Rafale ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Money came into the picture only after Rafale and EF were shortlisted. If there was an objection, then only EADS can object to L1. Which other contender was shortlisted for them to object? Or did Dassault themselves object to their L1 bid? No research, nothing. Typical illiterate just braying away to glory.

2 members of the Costs Negotiations Committee have made notations on the file that they DO NOT AGREE to the formula used and the components of the formula used to calculate the LCC based on which rafale has emerged L1

also they have said that IAF and Rafale has not provided many of the data required to arrive at the correct costs and that many variables value had to be assumed

which clearly means a deliberate HANKY PANKY from dasault and IAF

 

[p2prada]

2 members of the Costs Negotiations Committee have made notations on the file that they DO NOT AGREE to the formula used and the components of the formula used to calculate the LCC based on which rafale has emerged L1

also they have said that IAF and Rafale has not provided many of the data required to arrive at the correct costs and that many variables value had to be assumed

which clearly means a deliberate HANKY PANKY from dasault and IAF

That's BS. And I'm not replying to the other posts because not even a single one of them make sense.

 

[ersakthivel]

Impending MMRCA Waste - The New Indian Express

===============================================================================================

Narendra Modi has handled Shinzo Abe, Xi Jinping, and Barack Obama well. So fending off pressure from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and European states on medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) should be easy, especially because favouring the French Rafale aircraft or the German Eurofighter is likely to permanently tar the reputation of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party as the Bofors gun scam did the Congress party. A boondoggle lurks just below the MMRCA decision and requires, not finalising, but scrutiny by the Central Bureau of Investigation.

The MMRCA was conceived by the IAF brass as means of procuring Western aircraft under the rubric of "diversifying supply sources". The deficiencies in the MMRCA concept and the Rafale aircraft and deal have been analysed in my previous writings. But how supplier states brazenly play a con game using transfer of technology (TOT) provisions with the full connivance and complicity of the ministry of defence and services headquarters is astonishing and has, so far, gone unnoticed. An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft.

Eurofighter has come back into the reckoning because the visiting German foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier offered 126 of this aircraft for Rs 20,000 crore less than the Rafale. A discounted price cannot outweigh the redundancy aspect attending on the MMRCA in general and the negatives of the Eurofighter/Rafale in particular. Take the case of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar enabling combat planes to shift between ground attack and air-to-air interception roles. The European consortium EADS talked up the dated and deficient Captor-M PESA (passive electronically scanned array) radar when IAF was assessing the Eurofighter. It is to be enhanced to full AESA capability courtesy a $1.8 billion 5-year Captor-E project just sanctioned by the UK government. New Delhi will thus pay for the development of the enhanced Captor-E system, which will be available a decade late for retrofitting on the Eurofighter peddled to IAF without, however, enjoying intellectual property rights on the AESA technology as its development-funder!

More significantly, this plane has an unstable flight control system driven by faulty software that, according to a story in reputable periodical Der Spiegel dated July 10, 2013, has led to many near-disasters such as the aircraft almost flying into the air traffic control tower at the Neuberg air base in 2007. Other serious problems afflict this plane such as a flawed pilot ejection system. Design and system deficiencies have periodically grounded the Eurofighter fleet in the German Air Force. The Austrian Air Force, with 15 Eurofighters in service, detected 68 defects in it that potentially could have caused fatal crashes such as the altimeter being off by nearly 200 feet, unbalanced aircraft owing to incorrect pumping of aviation fuel into the engine, etc.

The main production plant at Manching, moreover, lost its licence to manufacture the Eurofighter because a German defence ministry review, in the words of Der Spiegel, found "unprecedented sloppiness in production", identifying 35 defects in the production process and another 49 in the quality control process. Worse, EADS delivered only 108 aircraft instead of 143 Eurofighters for the contracted sum of 18.6 billion Euros. Further, the Eurofighter, like the Rafale, has found no buyers, because it represents obsolete technology! Most problematically from the Indian perspective is the fact that Eurofighter has many US-made components and its networking system (data fusion, air-to-air and other communications links, etc.) is designed by the American company, Raytheon. From India's past experience of the US terminating spares and other material supplies over policy differences and in violation of contractual obligations, Eurofighter is thoroughly compromised goods. Grounding of C-17/C-130 transport fleets is one thing; losing whole squadrons of frontline combat aircraft this way in a crisis is something else altogether.

Interesting revelations may tumble out if CBI inquired into how, why, and by whom the MMRCA decisions were crafted. In the early 2000s, as a "stop gap" measure a decision was taken to acquire 12 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft with 85 per cent of its life still remaining from Qatar, which had acquired them from France in 1997. The tripartite deal, involving aircraft producer Dassault, was struck in April 2005 for $600 million, including a stock of 500 air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It was aborted a few months later when IAF headed by Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi arbitrarily slashed its offer to $375 million. The decision by a protesting Qatar to back out of the deal was used to conjure up the entirely novel MMRCA requirement and push for global tender, which Dassault hoped to win and, surprise! surprise!, did.

It is unfortunate that military bosses cry wolf in order to stampede the government of the day into approving purchases of often unnecessary weapons platforms they desire. The IAF brass did so to get the Qatari Mirages sanctioned before abruptly junking the deal and opting for shinier hardware; now they say they can't do without the Rafale! If the need was so urgent 10 years ago, why was the termination of the Qatari transaction engineered? The problem of depleting fighter squadrons that IAF complains about can be filled in short order and at fraction of the eventual $30 plus billion MMRCA cost, as suggested by this analyst, by accelerating production and induction of the Tejas Mk-1 for short-range air defence combined with off-the-shelf buys of the multi-role and technologically superior Su-30s and MiG-29Ms (whose servicing infrastructure is in place) until the Indianised genuine 5th generation fighter, Su-50 PAK FA enters service by the end of the decade. Finally, after cutting Rs 3,000 crore from the army's procurement budget as an economy measure, defence minister Arun Jaitley may find it hard to justify a requirements-wise questionable MMRCA costing Rs 1.8 lakh crore, or sixty times as much.

The author is professor at the Centre for Policy Research and blogs at www.bharatkarnad.co

=======================================================================================================

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Are you some kind of auction whore? What about the 3 years in contract negotiations? What about the cost of setting up numerous contracts for production? What about the numerous JVs that are being negotiated today? HAL has already started building infrastructure for Rafale.

If everything was put on paper in initial bid very clearly then there would not have been any negotiations - if IAF had put it on paper everything on paper why would there be negotiaations ?


The infrastructure can be utiised for other projects such as AMCA etc

Su-34 isn't cheaper. It costs over $50 million for one sortie a day. Rafale costs $90 Million and can handle 2-3 sorties a day. Rafale is cheaper in operation.

Who says that - you and only you

Su34 can be operated on multi sorties / day and there is nothing which says otherwise

Su-34 will fail on the first parameter itself. It is over 30 tonnes MTOW. It is not even eligible for tests. IAF has no requirement for Su-34. It is pointless. IAF doesn't want another heavy aircraft.

why is it pointless. IAF should be selecting aircraft

they should be selecting capabiities (aircraft based on certain capabilites )

IF the IAF knew thier business and has good record of selecting Aircrafts - they wouldnt have been found wanting during Kargil

The IAF ----ers top brass was found wanting during KArgil was found hoding Mirages 2000 who couldnt bomb at those heights until and unless they were modified with the help of Israel ?

Why were the IAF top brass not ready for that challenge or that scenario?
Why were strike aircraft Miurage 2000 not ready for such strike missions ?

Learn what is the meaning of supply line before making sweeping statements that make no sense.

LCA is not high end. It is far from ready. Mk2 is yet to have its first flight. AMCA is meant for post 2030. What about the period between 2015 and 2030?

LCA is high end enough
for the cost of 1 rafale we can fly 4 LCAs
or 3 SUper Su30MKI
or 3 Super SU34MKI
Or 1 Super Su30MI + 1 Super Su34MKi + 2 LCA


From 2015 to 2030 we have Su30MKI + LCA + Mirage 2000 (surely mirage upgarde has just begun they can serve 10-12 years after upgrade )

ANd if we back LCAmk2 and AMCA with full might from Today and hand them over to Navy to bring it online Then we can have LCA mk2 by 2018 and AMCA by 2024

If given to IAF they will Kill the projects

You create a second supply line by switching countries. Sukhoi is just one supply line. Dassault will be our second.

Forget Dasaut
Make INDIA - Home Grown products our primary supply line and Russia our Second Supply line

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

If everything was put on paper in initial bid very clearly then there would not have been any negotiations - if IAF had put it on paper everything on paper why would there be negotiaations ?


The infrastructure can be utiised for other projects such as AMCA etc



Who says that - you and only you

Su34 can be operated on multi sorties / day and there is nothing which says otherwise



why is it pointless. IAF should be selecting aircraft

they should be selecting capabiities (aircraft based on certain capabilites )

IF the IAF knew thier business and has good record of selecting Aircrafts - they wouldnt have been found wanting during Kargil

The IAF ----ers top brass was found wanting during KArgil was found hoding Mirages 2000 who couldnt bomb at those heights until and unless they were modified with the help of Israel ?

Why were the IAF top brass not ready for that challenge or that scenario?
Why were strike aircraft Miurage 2000 not ready for such strike missions ?




LCA is high end enough
for the cost of 1 rafale we can fly 4 LCAs
or 3 SUper Su30MKI
or 3 Super SU34MKI
Or 1 Super Su30MI + 1 Super Su34MKi + 2 LCA


From 2015 to 2030 we have Su30MKI + LCA + Mirage 2000 (surely mirage upgarde has just begun they can serve 10-12 years after upgrade )

ANd if we back LCAmk2 and AMCA with full might from Today and hand them over to Navy to bring it online Then we can have LCA mk2 by 2018 and AMCA by 2024

If given to IAF they will Kill the projects



Forget Dasaut
Make INDIA - Home Grown products our primary supply line and Russia our Second Supply line

You need to read more before making such statements.
Even though i find your entire post irrelevant, i find your Infra statement most funny.
Can you please elaborate how you plan to use infrastructure meant for Rafale for AMCA?

 

[Zebra]

Are there any infrastructure developing activity already started by any of PSUs in India?

That too without signing the final contract! Who ordered for it then?

What if the final contract won't get signed!

Better bring full time defence minister, ASAP.

It is already too late for MRCA tender.

 

[halloweene]

I already posted a pic of a Rafale pilot pulling 10G on Rafale. That's 1G more than the "supposed" limit.

Rafale FCS limitaitions are +9 -3.5 g.
But, as on a F-18 you have an override switch, you can override these limitations fo short. Then you go to 11g. (structural limit being 14g afaik, would need to refresh )
It is simply done another way, there is a crank on the lever. There are many testimonies about Rafale solo display team flying well over 10g.
You can ask directly to them fairly simply, their twitter account is @AlphaRafale

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You need to read more before making such statements.
Even though i find your entire post irrelevant, i find your Infra statement most funny.
Can you please elaborate how you plan to use infrastructure meant for Rafale for AMCA?

yes

what do you understand by INFRA

infra means -
setting up production plant & lines
very small line but what it involves ?

it involves -
Marking the land for the plant
Levelling the land fillinf the land
allowing it to setle by watering it
laying foundations
RCC carpeting
Plant structure
Cladding etc

laying Air compressor lines (for powering pneumatic tools ) power lines etc
ordering lift / stairways platforms etc

building of ramps apron

ordering of general purpose VMC CNC etc drills pneumatic tools machines will be done


these are basics which takes time also before signing of the contract only these or such activities can happen, as the necessary special machine which are needed for rafale will be ordered only after signing the contract

right now only general purpose machinary will be ordered

now if the Rafale contract doesnt go thru then these infra can be easily used for other AC such as AMCA

AMCA too will require plant & lines
It too will require work stations
it too will require pneumatic tools

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

yes

what do you understand by INFRA

infra means -
setting up production plant & lines
very small line but what it involves ?

it involves -
Marking the land for the plant
Levelling the land fillinf the land
allowing it to setle by watering it
laying foundations
RCC carpeting
Plant structure
Cladding etc

laying Air compressor lines (for powering pneumatic tools ) power lines etc
ordering lift / stairways platforms etc

building of ramps apron

ordering of general purpose VMC CNC etc drills pneumatic tools machines will be done


these are basics which takes time also before signing of the contract only these or such activities can happen, as the necessary special machine which are needed for rafale will be ordered only after signing the contract

right now only general purpose machinary will be ordered

now if the Rafale contract doesnt go thru then these infra can be easily used for other AC such as AMCA

AMCA too will require plant & lines
It too will require work stations
it too will require pneumatic tools

sorry to say, you dont know anything about infrastructure.

What you propose by saying we should scrap Rafale and go for ET is nothing less than suicidal for IAF.

Let me put it this way-
After signing, The first Rafale will roll off from production line in 2017. Now, if we ASSUME ET is cheaper and better than Rafale,
and scrap Rafale deal, the first ET would arrive by 2019-20. So the nearly entire fleet modernization plan will be stalled till 2020, as even Tejas Mk2 will arrive in 2019-20 and AMCA will arrive around 2025 or later than that.
So, IAF's current plan to retire MiG27 by 2020 will be pushed to 2025, and to retire MiG21 by 2022 will be pushed to 2027. This is pretty darn suicidal.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

sorry to say, you dont know anything about infrastructure.

What you propose by saying we should scrap Rafale and go for ET is nothing less than suicidal for IAF.

Let me put it this way-
After signing, The first Rafale will roll off from production line in 2017. Now, if we ASSUME ET is cheaper and better than Rafale,
and scrap Rafale deal, the first ET would arrive by 2019-20. So the nearly entire fleet modernization plan will be stalled till 2020, as even Tejas Mk2 will arrive in 2019-20 and AMCA will arrive around 2025 or later than that.
So, IAF's current plan to retire MiG27 by 2020 will be pushed to 2025, and to retire MiG21 by 2022 will be pushed to 2027. This is pretty darn suicidal.

So what do you think INFRA really is for production

You think they will be produced in floating air ?

You think aliens will make and deliver them ?

You think land plant such things wil not be required

i know this things dosent sound so sexy - but they are required


no if you have read the German offer they have offered to deliver 18 EFT immideately from thier own AF so as to get the training and familiarisation of IAF going

these will be replace with EFT as & when they are delivered

so there wont be any delay