Know Your 'Rafale'

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

@jaci07 plz introduce yourself by creating a seperate thread in 'introduction and greetings' section before you start posting
also read the 'rules' section

 

[jaci07]

Take it easy and Be cool in Discussion ...!!

You are right.I have acted to rudely.
I have just got angry because he told me the only thing i know about rafale is its pilot ejection seat.May be because he/she (i dont know he is a boy or girl or both) thinks he knows everything.

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk

 

[SajeevJino]

You are right.I have acted to rudely.
I have just got angry because he told me the only thing i know about rafale is its pilot ejection seat.May be because he/she (i dont know he is a boy or girl or both) thinks he knows everything.

If you Browse the T 90 ADA Tejas Thread you can find Lot of Fighting between members ...

But We just want a Decent Post with Good Points Like you Posted in #966

I always loves to read post like that ..Keep the Good work and Keep your Presence Around DFI

 

[jaci07]

Thanks SajeevJino

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk

 

[halloweene]

Tbh,
(i) No pilot died from a crash due to over high G, but from spatial disorientation

(ii) Automatic GCAS will come with interim standard F3.4 (next year), not implemented yet.

jaci, did you google "ottawa citizen rafale"?

 

[SajeevJino]

.


Operation Chammal; first Rafale gun strike

Wednesday, October 22, for the first time during the Chammal operation, the Rafale have used their 30 mm cannon. The French aircraft opened fire against Daesh infantry attacking a position held by the Iraqi army near Fallujah. Because of the short distance between attackers and defenders, the use of a bomb was considered too risky. The Rafales have therefore made "canon passes" to stop the Islamist attack.

Chammal : Première frappe au canon pour le Rafale - Air et Cosmos

Thanks to Olybrius

 

[sgarg]

Hi Halloweene, we generally appreciate Rafale's good qualities. However we are very concerned at the pricing of not only Rafale but other defence items also contracted with France. I suspect that very good relationship with France is running into rough weather.

The pricing does not indicate a healthy relationship between the two countries. It indicates an unhealthy trend of extracting maximum money by influence and manipulating contracts.

It is a fact the MOD and senior defence bureaucracy in India is not used to complex tenders. The foreign acquisitions in the past were govt-to-govt deals and were usually not accompanied by TOT or large offsets. However taking advantage of the situation cannot be called a friendly affair.

Most tenders for acquisition of materiel from abroad have failed for one reason or the other. It is a complex interplay of multiple factors including rampant graft and influence peddling by multiple vendors.

Some of us are genuinely concerned at the state of affairs. A glaring example is that government of India does not know the correct price of one Rafale aircraft after about three years of deciding it as the finalist in tender.

 

[ersakthivel]

If you Browse the T 90 ADA Tejas Thread you can find Lot of Fighting between members ...

But We just want a Decent Post with Good Points Like you Posted in #966

I always loves to read post like that ..Keep the Good work and Keep your Presence Around DFI

Why should you mention the two threads tejas and t-90 in particular as if there is no fighting n any other thread?

Lot of members have posted much more factual viewpoints in those tejas and T-90 thread , much more detailed info with authentic source also.

If there is no contrasting view points then both threads would read like tejas is a trainer, just a simple Mig-21 replacement and T-90 is the world's best tank despite repeatedly failing in hot indian desert condition needing upgrades from DRDO.

If people post contrasting views it doesn't become a fight. only thing is to do it with decency.

SO please don't be a thread judge in DFI.

 

[halloweene]

First massive strike also, 12 AASM shot near Kirkouk. (12 buildings destroyed)

 

[power_monger]

What happened stupid piece of blank shit.
Come on give me some challenge.
I think you are a smart guy but i guess i am wrong.

Sent from my Micromax A106 using Tapatalk

Nice job...Please give credit to the guy who has actually written it.
Chest thumping is not really good when you are doing copy paste job.Plagarism is generally not appreciated in forums.

 

[SajeevJino]

First massive strike also, 12 AASM shot near Kirkouk. (12 buildings destroyed)

Mission Stat Details Please

 

[lcafanboy]

French officials said Wednesday that they will not deliver the first Mistral-class amphibious warship that Russia had ordered from Paris as part of a $1.7 billion weapons sale, a strong rebuke after months of aggressive actions by Russia in eastern Ukraine.

French officials said in statement that they assess the situation in Ukraine to be "serious," and believe Russia's actions undermine security in Europe. The statement did not say whether France will deliver the ship in the future, but said the conditions for it to do so at this time "have so far not been met," despite the possibility of a cease-fire in Ukraine. "The recent actions by Russia in eastern Ukraine are contrary to the basic notions of security in Europe," the statement said.


india should be wary of signing mmrca deal for rafale as in future they can stop supply of spares and further aircrafts as the production starts by not suppying critical components. iaf top brass should open their eyes now this is a wake up call for all indian armed forces and politicians that the security of our nation is at stakes when you buy foriegn products. no nation can become strong on borrowed strength as this is only for shows but when it is needed the most it will be of no use as there will be no supply of critical parts and weapons. and above all who knows if it is coming with kill switch. so when you have to fight any nato nation the birds simply won't fly.

 

[halloweene]

Opération Chammal : mission de bombardement de nuit de la coalition

Sry, in french. Google is your firend.

Generally speaking, massive coalition raid, 70 bombs dropped including 12 AASM from 2 Rafales. They all hit their target and destroyed targeted buildings.

Btw, 2 days ago they gun straffed some vehicles.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Do you mean get two squadron off the shelf and see you later.

CASPER buying 2 squad wont work it will increase the cost which is already too high.... and its life cycle cost as well... the numbers are less they have no orders so cost gonna go up...
don't you think so?

I am not going to commit myself to the number of squadrons, but I would peg that at 4 squadrons. I would like to bait the French to get things moving with the Kaveri K10. Our long term interests lie in making things in India. I wouldn't mind being monetarily generous with them. Once we get the turbines into the production line, we can easily build upon the LCA to build a twin-engined MCA. Rafale has one significant advantage in the number of engines, over the LCA. I do not acknowledge LCA being a replacement of Rafale.

In total we are planning for 126 a/c that is 6 squad of 21.If I am not wrong then pmaitra u want IAF to buy 4 squad and say good buy ..... That will be disastrous...
I know you want India to get the tech right a way but this Sh!t doesnot work like that .... TOT is never never ever 100% and you knowI know that we all know that.....


Leave Tejas .... I am a fan too but lets just keep him out for a while....

We can buy other A/C we already maintain MIG29 we can buy few more .... or SU 30 one or two additional squad ..... what I am trying to say is we have options and money and Russia in great need of it.... It has only China to back it up mainly and we can exploit it we are the biggest arm importers....

in that way we will be saving alot of money Migs cn be built here in India and all that money can go to develop Engine.... with all that money we can fast track it by years....


now back to Tejas ....
Tejas is not meant to replace Rafale...
It is to replace MIG21....

Rafale has one significant advantage in the number of engines, over the LCA

Can u kindly elaborate this statement.....

 

[Zebra]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

CASPER buying 2 squad wont work it will increase the cost which is already too high.... and its life cycle cost as well... the numbers are less they have no orders so cost gonna go up...
don't you think so?

Nah.

Order them for SFC.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

@Pulkit,

I said 4 squadrons as approximately a third of our shortage, and this is for off-the shelf planes, not for ToT.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal

Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal | Russia & India Report

Fighter planes fall into two categories – the hunters and the hunted. The French are pitching their Rafale as the dogfight duke that is the crème de la crème of jet fighters. But the Russian side disagrees. Alexander Kadakin, Russia's ambassador in India, says Chinese-made Sukhoi-27s would be able to swat the Rafales like "mosquitoes on an August night."

At this point it's pointless to deliver the verdict on which aircraft is superior. The Rafale is a largely unknown commodity in aviation circles. Like most French fighters, it is most likely an unassuming, unspectacular but honest aircraft.

But what Kadakin left unsaid is ominous. First up, he said the hundreds of Su-27 Flankers supplied by Moscow to Beijing are much less advanced than the Flankers in India's inventory. Now forget the Su-27 for a while and let's talk about the two squadrons of the latest Su-35 Super Flanker that Russia has cleared for sale to China. This new iteration is a huge advancement over the already potent Su-27. If the aircraft's stupendous performance at the 2014 Paris Air Show is any indication then the Rafale is likely to fare even worse against the Su-35.

Costing dogfight

To be sure, the most significant aspect of the Rafale deal is the cost. Originally pegged at $10 billion, the size of the deal has climbed to a stratospheric $30 billion. So instead of bolstering the country's air power, the Rafale is threatening to blow a gaping hole in India's overstretched defence budget.

India may the third largest economy on the planet but in the backdrop of numerous projects requiring bucket loads of cash, New Delhi can't afford to splurge on weapons, especially when alternatives are available for far less.

The IAF's requirement of 126 aircraft can be quickly met – at a fraction of the cost of the Rafale – by inducting more numbers of the technologically superior Su-30s, which the IAF described as its "air dominance fighter," and which is being produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).
Each Indian made Su-30 costs approximately $75 million per unit. So if the IAF goes for 126 of them, the total cost will come to under $10 billion, which coincidentally is the originally envisaged amount. Plus, the Sukhois will provide more bang for the buck. "These aircraft will be the high end of India's air power, and can be expected to remain in the force past 2030, and are competitive with or superior to top-end European fighters and American F-15 variants," says Defense Industry Daily.

Another option is to buy more of the – even more cheaper – MiG-29, which is the mainstay of India's interceptor force, and which had shattered the morale of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) during the 1999 Kargil War.

With the $20 billion or so saved, India can import leading edge aviation technology – from France, Russia, Germany or even the US to beef up its military aviation. With manufacturing declining in the US and Europe and thousands of defence sector jobs facing the axe, western engineers would be more than happy to work in India.

There is a precedent in this area. After 1991 when elite Soviet weapons engineers and scientists found their jobs gone, many of them found work at Chinese and South Korean companies – both military and civilian. Russian scientists and engineers ended up transforming the defence sector in both these Asian countries.

India too needs to tread the same path. Hiring unemployed or underemployed European defence sector workers would cut the development time frame of Indian defence projects. In fact, even Pakistan has a tenuous Russian connection. An administrator of Pakistan's Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission from 1967 to 1970 was Polish aeronautical engineer air commodore Wladyslaw Turowicz. Born in Siberia, the Pole made significant contributions to Pakistan's missile programme as an aeronautical engineer.

That brings up the third option. India's homemade Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) is being fielded in limited numbers, and further development can easily make it a world class fighter. India can then produce hundreds of LCAs costing around $40 million – for the IAF. For decades, China has adopted this policy of having hundreds of obsolete aircraft because "quantity has a quality all its own".

Sending hundreds of LCAs swarming into Pakistani air space would completely overwhelm that country's defences. In effect, the Tejas fleet would kick the door in, allowing the Sukhois to pulverise targets with the supersonic BrahMos cruise missiles.

The LCA even become the military equivalent of India's $2000 TATA Nano car, for which there was a waiting list in Sri Lanka. Similarly, the LCA could be the ideal export aircraft to small countries with limited budgets. Aircraft such as the Su-30, MiG-29 and F-18 are too expensive and too big for the use of such nations. India could be the first to market a no-frills fighter.
Military

Why Rafale?

When the MMRCA tender was floated over a decade ago, it seemed like a good idea. One, it was aimed at lowering India's overwhelming dependence on Russia for advanced weapons.

Secondly, India wanted to acquire a medium aircraft that would fill the gap between the low-end LCA and the premium Sukhois.

The third reason was to shore up the IAF's depleting fighter fleet. The IAF's sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons (an IAF combat squadron consists of 18 aircraft in service with another 3-4 in maintenance) but its current fleet is down to 34 squadrons. The air force says it requires 44 squadrons to meet a full-scale war with Pakistan, while also maintaining "a dissuasive posture" against China.

Earlier this year, the IAF told a Parliamentary standing committee on defence that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult for it to handle. This was played up by the media, which failed to see the fine print: the IAF admitted (in the same statement) China may not pose "a collusive threat" if hostilities were to break out between India and Pakistan.

Indeed, why would the Chinese team up with a rapidly balkanizing Pakistan and attack a fellow BRICS member? It is not only counterintuitive but also a ridiculous idea.

As for the threat from Pakistan, it is really a joke. The arrival of the MiG-29 and the Sukhoi-30 in the 1990s has given the IAF a fearsome qualitative advantage over the PAF. This edge was demonstrated during the 1999 Kargil War. While a number of IAF aircraft took part in that campaign, it was the cover provided by the MiG-29 that spooked – and demoralised – the PAF pilots.

Says Strategy Page in a report dated May 20, 2005: "While PAF fighters did fly Combat Air Patrols (CAP) during the conflict, they stayed well within Pakistani air space. On occasions, IAF MiG-29s armed with the deadly R-77 BVR air-to-air missiles were able to lock on to PAF F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage."

So scared were the Pakistani pilots of the Indian MiGs that the "PAF simply refused to play any part" in the war.

In the report "Airpower at 18,000 feet: IAF in the Kargil War" published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in 2012, Benjamin Lambeth says the Pakistani F-16s "typically maintained a safe distance of 10 to 20 miles on the Pakistani side of the LoC".
пустым не оставлять!!

Why the F-35 is a sitting duck for the Flankers

Qualitatively, the IAF is on an upward curve. In fact, in an interview to the media in 2012, former air force chief N.A.K. Browne gave the lie to the claim that the IAF was becoming weaker. According to Browne, the IAF is replacing older MiG-21s with Su-30s. He said once older aircraft are replaced with brand new Sukhois the IAF will have "far greater capability than even what we have today".

If India and France sort out the numerous issues dogging the MMRCA deal and a contract is signed this year, then the first 18 Rafales will arrive from France in 2016. If all goes smoothly, the rest of the 102 aircraft could start rolling off HAL's assembly lines by 2018.

But here's the rub: around 2020 Sukhoi's stealth fighter, the PAK-FA, in which India is a junior partner, will be ready to join the IAF. Why India is committing itself to a stopgap aircraft is mysterious.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal

Why India needs to rethink the Rafale deal | Russia & India Report

Fighter planes fall into two categories – the hunters and the hunted. The French are pitching their Rafale as the dogfight duke that is the crème de la crème of jet fighters. But the Russian side disagrees. Alexander Kadakin, Russia's ambassador in India, says Chinese-made Sukhoi-27s would be able to swat the Rafales like "mosquitoes on an August night."

At this point it's pointless to deliver the verdict on which aircraft is superior. The Rafale is a largely unknown commodity in aviation circles. Like most French fighters, it is most likely an unassuming, unspectacular but honest aircraft.

But what Kadakin left unsaid is ominous. First up, he said the hundreds of Su-27 Flankers supplied by Moscow to Beijing are much less advanced than the Flankers in India's inventory. Now forget the Su-27 for a while and let's talk about the two squadrons of the latest Su-35 Super Flanker that Russia has cleared for sale to China. This new iteration is a huge advancement over the already potent Su-27. If the aircraft's stupendous performance at the 2014 Paris Air Show is any indication then the Rafale is likely to fare even worse against the Su-35.

Costing dogfight

To be sure, the most significant aspect of the Rafale deal is the cost. Originally pegged at $10 billion, the size of the deal has climbed to a stratospheric $30 billion. So instead of bolstering the country's air power, the Rafale is threatening to blow a gaping hole in India's overstretched defence budget.

India may the third largest economy on the planet but in the backdrop of numerous projects requiring bucket loads of cash, New Delhi can't afford to splurge on weapons, especially when alternatives are available for far less.

The IAF's requirement of 126 aircraft can be quickly met – at a fraction of the cost of the Rafale – by inducting more numbers of the technologically superior Su-30s, which the IAF described as its "air dominance fighter," and which is being produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).
Each Indian made Su-30 costs approximately $75 million per unit. So if the IAF goes for 126 of them, the total cost will come to under $10 billion, which coincidentally is the originally envisaged amount. Plus, the Sukhois will provide more bang for the buck. "These aircraft will be the high end of India's air power, and can be expected to remain in the force past 2030, and are competitive with or superior to top-end European fighters and American F-15 variants," says Defense Industry Daily.

Another option is to buy more of the – even more cheaper – MiG-29, which is the mainstay of India's interceptor force, and which had shattered the morale of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) during the 1999 Kargil War.

With the $20 billion or so saved, India can import leading edge aviation technology – from France, Russia, Germany or even the US to beef up its military aviation. With manufacturing declining in the US and Europe and thousands of defence sector jobs facing the axe, western engineers would be more than happy to work in India.

There is a precedent in this area. After 1991 when elite Soviet weapons engineers and scientists found their jobs gone, many of them found work at Chinese and South Korean companies – both military and civilian. Russian scientists and engineers ended up transforming the defence sector in both these Asian countries.

India too needs to tread the same path. Hiring unemployed or underemployed European defence sector workers would cut the development time frame of Indian defence projects. In fact, even Pakistan has a tenuous Russian connection. An administrator of Pakistan's Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission from 1967 to 1970 was Polish aeronautical engineer air commodore Wladyslaw Turowicz. Born in Siberia, the Pole made significant contributions to Pakistan's missile programme as an aeronautical engineer.

That brings up the third option. India's homemade Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) is being fielded in limited numbers, and further development can easily make it a world class fighter. India can then produce hundreds of LCAs costing around $40 million – for the IAF. For decades, China has adopted this policy of having hundreds of obsolete aircraft because "quantity has a quality all its own".

Sending hundreds of LCAs swarming into Pakistani air space would completely overwhelm that country's defences. In effect, the Tejas fleet would kick the door in, allowing the Sukhois to pulverise targets with the supersonic BrahMos cruise missiles.

The LCA even become the military equivalent of India's $2000 TATA Nano car, for which there was a waiting list in Sri Lanka. Similarly, the LCA could be the ideal export aircraft to small countries with limited budgets. Aircraft such as the Su-30, MiG-29 and F-18 are too expensive and too big for the use of such nations. India could be the first to market a no-frills fighter.
Military

Why Rafale?

When the MMRCA tender was floated over a decade ago, it seemed like a good idea. One, it was aimed at lowering India's overwhelming dependence on Russia for advanced weapons.

Secondly, India wanted to acquire a medium aircraft that would fill the gap between the low-end LCA and the premium Sukhois.

The third reason was to shore up the IAF's depleting fighter fleet. The IAF's sanctioned strength is 39.5 squadrons (an IAF combat squadron consists of 18 aircraft in service with another 3-4 in maintenance) but its current fleet is down to 34 squadrons. The air force says it requires 44 squadrons to meet a full-scale war with Pakistan, while also maintaining "a dissuasive posture" against China.

Earlier this year, the IAF told a Parliamentary standing committee on defence that a "collusive threat" from China and Pakistan would be difficult for it to handle. This was played up by the media, which failed to see the fine print: the IAF admitted (in the same statement) China may not pose "a collusive threat" if hostilities were to break out between India and Pakistan.

Indeed, why would the Chinese team up with a rapidly balkanizing Pakistan and attack a fellow BRICS member? It is not only counterintuitive but also a ridiculous idea.

As for the threat from Pakistan, it is really a joke. The arrival of the MiG-29 and the Sukhoi-30 in the 1990s has given the IAF a fearsome qualitative advantage over the PAF. This edge was demonstrated during the 1999 Kargil War. While a number of IAF aircraft took part in that campaign, it was the cover provided by the MiG-29 that spooked – and demoralised – the PAF pilots.

Says Strategy Page in a report dated May 20, 2005: "While PAF fighters did fly Combat Air Patrols (CAP) during the conflict, they stayed well within Pakistani air space. On occasions, IAF MiG-29s armed with the deadly R-77 BVR air-to-air missiles were able to lock on to PAF F-16s, forcing the latter to disengage."

So scared were the Pakistani pilots of the Indian MiGs that the "PAF simply refused to play any part" in the war.

In the report "Airpower at 18,000 feet: IAF in the Kargil War" published by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in 2012, Benjamin Lambeth says the Pakistani F-16s "typically maintained a safe distance of 10 to 20 miles on the Pakistani side of the LoC".
пустым не оставлять!!

Why the F-35 is a sitting duck for the Flankers

Qualitatively, the IAF is on an upward curve. In fact, in an interview to the media in 2012, former air force chief N.A.K. Browne gave the lie to the claim that the IAF was becoming weaker. According to Browne, the IAF is replacing older MiG-21s with Su-30s. He said once older aircraft are replaced with brand new Sukhois the IAF will have "far greater capability than even what we have today".

If India and France sort out the numerous issues dogging the MMRCA deal and a contract is signed this year, then the first 18 Rafales will arrive from France in 2016. If all goes smoothly, the rest of the 102 aircraft could start rolling off HAL's assembly lines by 2018.

But here's the rub: around 2020 Sukhoi's stealth fighter, the PAK-FA, in which India is a junior partner, will be ready to join the IAF. Why India is committing itself to a stopgap aircraft is mysterious.

 

[halloweene]

Sincerely, considering the source...
India has trained with Rafale... And guess what? They still want to buy it....

 

[Pulkit]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

@Pulkit,

I said 4 squadrons as approximately a third of our shortage, and this is for off-the shelf planes, not for ToT.

Yeah i know what u meant but I thot how come you or anybody suggest that....
Firstly it will not make the aircraft any cheaper off the shelf can never be cheap(will be cheaper than when it comes with TOT though)...+ it will loose Make In India Concept... even if we ignore that ...what do you think the cost of those squad will be.... Then sum up everything as nothing will be Made In India we will be totally dependent on them....

And as many expert say the cost of an aircraft sometimes might be lesser than its maintenance throughout it life span.
Companies sometime quote less price and tend to add a lot of Misc costs which later will hurt us....
special parts are quoted way to expensive... thats how they survive....