Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

Reply to p2prada:

1. What is technology? France will have to supply the machines, tooling and know-how to make the plane's parts.

Given that Rafale represents French State-of-the-art, means that it uses the latest production processes that French have mastered so far.

India is a country where trade secrets cannot be adequately safeguarded because of low security at industrial facilities. There are multiple concerns with French supplying their latest tech to India.

Su-30 tech is likely inferior to Rafale tech (in terms of production processes) and Rafale will be a huge challenge for indian industry.

2. If tensions in Ukraine spill over, there is a very strong case for key European States increasing their military procurement as most States have cut their acquisitions in last few years. This will definitely impact Indian imports.

 

[ersakthivel]

There might be few explainations
The delivery of nos for Eurofighters are agreed by each member and the work share is shared as per the share of planes agreed to purchase.

If a member like Germany refuses some numbers, they already have a work share with them thus there is penalty that they have to pay for refusing.

there is one article, of 2009 which said that cost of cancellation of 40 planes is about 3 billion dollars. About 75 million per plane !!

U.K. Said to Consider Eurofighter Cancellation Costs (Update1) - Businessweek

As per another article cites the Austrian sale

In 2003, Austria signed a EUR 2 billion contract to receive 18 EADS Eurofighters plus required support (just over $2.5 billion, or about $140 million per plane).


Also ......... after a response from Eurofighter GmbH set Austria's cost of cancellation at EUR 1.2 billion in return for zero aircraft.
Which is about 66 million per plane !! So the numbers might be true

Eurofighter’s Rough Ride in Austria Continues

Now, consider Germany, Germany since they do not want more nos, they would have to pay say 70 million per plane for refusing the plane, but instead of that, what if they offer at say 50 million as discount per plane?

In the above scenario the benefit for India the cost would be cheaper by 50 million per plane which is CONSIDERABLE, and surely no way that Dassault can match that.

The benefit for Germany would be that instead of losing 70 million, they lose 50 million, and save 20 million, which is significant for some numbers. Further seems Modi has some confidence in Germans more than UPA and thus I believe that this be first of many projects with Germany in India

The benefit for Airbus is that they sell the plane to another MAJOR customer and in significant nos.

The contract clause set by EADS partners could in a way benefit India !!

Is this real?

 

[SajeevJino]

.

From Olybrius MP.net

Key Notes about Ex Garuda

* Jodhpur, the largest and most versatile IAF base , located 250
km from Pakistan, was the ideal base to welcome Garuda V ,
according to Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha.
* The French aviators took the opportunity of a Rafale changeover
in UAE to send 2 Rafale C and 2 Rafale B [with PESA radar] to
Jodhpur while continuing the activity in AL Dhafra.

* The first week was devoted to familiarization flights with BFM
(Basic Flight Maneuvres) 1vs1, 1vs2, 2vs2 (Air Combat
Maneuvers). Then came more complex LFE (Large Force
Engagement) scenarios with air defense, escort and ground attack
missions, blue vs red. Example: 2 Rafale, 2 SU-30MKI , 2 Mig 21
and a tanker were to defend an area against 12 attackers including
1 Rafale. Working in joint patrol was privileged.

* The French airmen were peppered with questions by Indian pilots
about their experience [Lybia, Mali ...] .They emphasized the
expertise of their Indian counterparts, the fantastic welcome and
atmosphere.

" Excellent, excellent, it would take more than an hour to talk about
it ," the reaction of the IAF chief after a flight aboard a Rafale
speaks volumes. Efficient, impressive, ergonomic .. here are the
words used by Indian pilots. Delighted to fly on Rafale, they were
unanimous about its capabilities [...]

" Hosting Rafale crews allows us to have an overview of its capabilities, and it's a outstanding aircraft ," said Commodore Saju. [...]

" I was impressed by its sensors, especially in BVR combat (beyond visual range) "says an Indian pilot. " When I flew with a Rafale for my first
mission, I fully appreciated it. This is a very fine airplane whose
construction and development are extraordinary ".

According to Commodore Singh, who flew back seat, " the avionics
of the aircraft is well integrated. In dogfight, the sensation of
acceleration is stronger than with SU-30MKI, the plane is lighter ".

 

[p2prada]

Reply to p2prada:

India is a country where trade secrets cannot be adequately safeguarded because of low security at industrial facilities. There are multiple concerns with French supplying their latest tech to India.

If that was the case the Russians wouldn't have gone through with PAKFA. The MKI proved to the Russians. So what is good for the Russians is good for France.

Su-30 tech is likely inferior to Rafale tech (in terms of production processes) and Rafale will be a huge challenge for indian industry.

HAL made the jump from screwdriver technology to full scale manufacturing on the MKI. The jump from MKI to Rafale is much smaller. With large amounts of composites, HAL would feel more at home with Rafale than with the titanium beast.

India will be the second supply line for Rafales.

Dassault does not yet support it and obviously the French govt will not approve it, but the companies which supply critical parts want to move the entire production line to India. Meaning, they don't want France to be making any more Rafales. They want India to manufacture Rafales, both for ALA/MN and for other export customers. Trappier argued that it wouldn't be good for the French to lose out on manufacturing know-how of Rafales even if suppliers want to make more profits through India, but the possibility exists. They are still debating it.

2. If tensions in Ukraine spill over, there is a very strong case for key European States increasing their military procurement as most States have cut their acquisitions in last few years. This will definitely impact Indian imports.

No, it won't. French military procurement itself is pretty good. A 5th tranche of Rafale is to be ordered soon. It was standard procedure, nothing out of the ordinary. A 6th tranche is also pending which will be taken up at a later date, around the time when the 5th tranche is ending production. ALA/MN will most likely have 225 Rafales. Only the 7th tranche was cut. You are talking about Germany and UK. They are in trouble.

 

[sgarg]

You are implying that plane is just a body - made from composites etc. The key is in engine and electronics.

Which French fighter is made by HAL??

The fact is Rafale is the first Indo-French collaboration in the fighter space. There is no history to predict success.

 

[sgarg]

How many Rafales are in French Air Force, and how many were planned? The fact is NATO force levels in Europe are much below planned levels. A greater threat perception can completely change procurement cycles.

 

[Punya Pratap]

He is being very diplomatic. It doesn't mean that every time somebody says something you need to sit with a dictionary open. All I see is you used a dictionary to prove you don't know what he is talking about.

Nothing what he said has anything to do with ToT.

You have a very bad habit of running away from facts.... Capt Satish was'nt attending a 'diplomatic briefing but giving his OBJECTIVE ASSESSMENT at a formal seminar on the final day when everyone was asked to pitch in with their final opinions and solutions.

And I repeat again like my last post...I have quoted Capt. Satish to back my own statement that every defense entity needs to collaborate is India is to achieve self reliance.

Your constant stance changing on my use of SYNERGY is childish.... I suggest you grow up to understanding the argument instead of nitpicking over what words I use and words which are in conjunction with Capt. Satish's take on how to become self reliant.

For your benefit I am again stating : I QUOTED CAPT SATISH TO BACK MY ARGUEMENT THAT IAF/DRDO/HAL ALL HAVE TO COMBINE THEIR RESOURCES FOR DEVELOPING DESI TECH INCLUDING ENGINES!

ToT is the same wherever you go. All ToT does is takes care of immediate problems, it doesn't solve other problems. Rafale ToT will not be used in LCA or AMCA.
If your older brother does your homework, that doesn't mean you will pass your exam without studying. If everybody passed exams by throwing money at the question paper, then you can only imagine where the country will be. This is what you are suggesting.

Your argument defeats the entire logic of paying tonnes of money for ToT and you yourself are on record saying that whatever ToT we get from FGFA /RAFALE will benefit us on our Desi AMCA etc

Our scientists are barely able to absorb technology that was developed in the '80s and here you want them to go conquer the world. Give it another 20 or 30 years.

Thank you for your new found consideration towards DRDO Scientists but please tell me if it will take 20-30 years for them to absorb Rafale ToT than by that time the Rafale will be close to phasing out and irrelevant in the war scenarios and range of weapons after your 20/30 years

Secondly if by your own assesment it takes 20/30 years to absorb ToT from a source nation which has already developed the techs than why is it that you are cannot keep your patience for 20/30 for the same scientists you have shown consideration for to learn to develop their own cutting edge Tech.

Your lack of understanding of ToT coupled to the fact that you don't understand what those quotes mean show that you don't know what you are talking about. It is a very common phenomenon among the Arjun brigade that I have come to live with.

Since you refuse to take my arguments regarding ToT than please answer to dear old Matty who incidentally understands that :

What is the point of getting technology if you don't factor that in your contract that I will substitute your materials with my products made from my materials. Not one of them have been done, nor substituted as yet. We are not recognizing the fact that we are not getting value for the money that we spend. We are not getting control over technology. We have no control over critical technology. We are so import-dependent; we better recognize that fact and then change our policies accordingly. And that's the major problem with our entire process. – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran


A) We have so many restrictions on all the ToT's that we have nt been allowed to use it is Matty's point no 1
B) We have spent tonnes of money on ToT over the fallacy that we get control over cutting edge tech through ToT but that is all hogwash.

Why do you want me there? You want to copy and pass do you?

Thanks for giving me something to laugh at coz if you have ever taken an IQ test you would know that you cannot copy and pass since the sequence of questions are nt the same for two people giving the test and by and large they put in different questions for separate people. I think you are suffering from delusion if you think the internationally recognised IQ tests' are like Indian Govt exams where you can cheat !

Oh by the way, I m still awaiting my answer to the Brig. Rays' statements I posted earlier regarding Arjun... have nt got any answers from you so I assume you are again doing your by now obvious "Duck & Run" sequence. Sad to see you misunderstanding everyone including me or Brig. Ray... And since you are calling everyone opposed to your view Arjun Brigade....we should also start calling you, let me see Import Lobbyists

 

[p2prada]

You have a very bad habit of running away from facts.... Capt Satish was'nt attending a 'diplomatic briefing but giving his OBJECTIVE ASSESSMENT at a formal seminar on the final day when everyone was asked to pitch in with their final opinions and solutions.

This makes you naive.

And I repeat again like my last post...I have quoted Capt. Satish to back my own statement that every defense entity needs to collaborate is India is to achieve self reliance.

Now, how does ToT come into it?

Your constant stance changing on my use of SYNERGY is childish.... I suggest you grow up to understanding the argument instead of nitpicking over what words I use and words which are in conjunction with Capt. Satish's take on how to become self reliant.

You said somehow ToT is to be used. I am asking how.

And how do the Capt's words relate to ToT?

For your benefit I am again stating : I QUOTED CAPT SATISH TO BACK MY ARGUEMENT THAT IAF/DRDO/HAL ALL HAVE TO COMBINE THEIR RESOURCES FOR DEVELOPING DESI TECH INCLUDING ENGINES!

What has this got to do with ToT?

Your argument defeats the entire logic of paying tonnes of money for ToT and you yourself are on record saying that whatever ToT we get from FGFA /RAFALE will benefit us on our Desi AMCA etc

Yes. And I have explained how ToT helps. Dig up my old posts and read what I said.

Thank you for your new found consideration towards DRDO Scientists but please tell me if it will take 20-30 years for them to absorb Rafale ToT than by that time the Rafale will be close to phasing out and irrelevant in the war scenarios and range of weapons after your 20/30 years

Why will DRDO absorb Rafale ToT? This again goes back to point 1. How does Rafale ToT help DRDO. Explain.

Secondly if by your own assesment it takes 20/30 years to absorb ToT from a source nation which has already developed the techs than why is it that you are cannot keep your patience for 20/30 for the same scientists you have shown consideration for to learn to develop their own cutting edge Tech.

Your lack of comprehension skills, ignorance and naivety is leading you to believe I said something I didn't.

Where did I say it will take 20-30 years to absorb technology? Please quote.

Since you refuse to take my arguments regarding ToT than please answer to dear old Matty who incidentally understands that :

But didn't he say ToT for Su-30MKI was given back in 2007? You yourself quoted it.

Can you explain what he meant when he said ToT hasn't helped?

Thanks for giving me something to laugh at coz if you have ever taken an IQ test you would know that you cannot copy and pass since the sequence of questions are nt the same for two people giving the test and by and large they put in different questions for separate people. I think you are suffering from delusion if you think the internationally recognised IQ tests' are like Indian Govt exams where you can cheat !

You mentioned something about comprehension also. Apart from that IQ tests can be copied too, you just need to know how.

Oh by the way, I m still awaiting my answer to the Brig. Rays' statements I posted earlier regarding Arjun... have nt got any answers from you so I assume you are again doing your by now obvious "Duck & Run" sequence. Sad to see you misunderstanding everyone including me or Brig. Ray... And since you are calling everyone opposed to your view Arjun Brigade....we should also start calling you, let me see Import Lobbyists

When did he say anything about Arjun? Can you post links...

What I pointed out is even he doesn't think Shukla is reliable, so I was pointing out not to use Shukla as a reference for anything. He is not a good source. Basically, he has an axe to grind.

And have you actually read the real opinions of Ray about DRDO? He is one of those who thinks DRDO should be shut down. And he has worked with DRDO in the past.

 

[ersakthivel]

Which tech rafale has like

1. 4 channel relaxed static stability fly by wire airframe,

2. tail less delta with low wing loading, and high thrust weight ratio to excel in high altitude himalayan theater where taking off with meaningful load within the specified runway length depends on these factors

3. All glass cockpit, and avionics that minimizes pilot loads and designed with active inputs from test pilots through out the flight test regime,

4. RCS reduction mechanism,

5.latest engine tech(present engine on rafale is more than two decades old in thrust levels)

6.Ability to fire 120 Km range BVR missiles with a decent sized radar,

7. A fly by wire airframe with wake penetration and all weather clearance,

8. Ability to fire the deadly HMDS enabled visually cued R-73 E WVR missile? (described as one of the best in the world by Air marshal and former HAL chairman MSD Woolen. Even tejas mk1 has it now but it is proposed to be added to rafale later at extra cost to ourself).

9. Higher percentage of weight reducing , radar refection minimizing composites that enable high thrust to weight ratio for a given airframe mass?

10.The combination of high TWR and low wingloading RSS delta airframe which enables agile turns to evade BVR missiles and get a first shoot ability with Visually cued R-73 E like WVR missiles in close combat, which is a must have option in modern 4.5th gen airframes

11.Ability to carry a mini brahmos like cruise missile weighing close to 1.5 tons on its center line pylon.

12.OBORG for extended refuelled flying in high altitude with the aid of refuelling,

13.A 1.8 mach top speed in its service ceiling with 9 G limits.

14. A must have less than 1 sq meter clean config which enables to drop away from long range radars once heavy external weapons and fuel tanks are released.

15. A good fuel sipping engine that is reliable and modern for some time to come.

16.Ability to fire ramjets 120 Km range missiles like meteor with an ASEA radar that can track long enough,

17. Modular in design and Ability to be upgraded in batches as and when new techs like better sensor fusion, better ASEA radar and better IRST devices arrive.

18, An option to upgrade to a higher thrust engine,

19. A flow separation postponing arrangement like ,

canard or levcon or cranked delta which generates vortex over the top of wing leading edge in high angle of attacks to enables air suction over the top of the smoothly blended upper wing body fuselage,

there by delaying the onset of stall and enabling the wing to reach designed max lift coefficient of the wing which is not present in older delta platforms like mirage-2000.

Also these lift enhancing mechanism along with flawless Relaxed static stability 4 channel fly by wire tech allows the hassle and easy flying at sea level which is not the case with earlier tailess deltas which did not have the above mentioned techs .

20. Retaining unstable configuration throughout the flight envelope, enabling tighter and agile turns even in supersonic flight with better agility


That wont be present in tejas mk2?

Answer -NONE.

 

[Punya Pratap]

This makes you naive.



Now, how does ToT come into it?



You said somehow ToT is to be used. I am asking how.

And how do the Capt's words relate to ToT?



What has this got to do with ToT?



Yes. And I have explained how ToT helps. Dig up my old posts and read what I said.



Why will DRDO absorb Rafale ToT? This again goes back to point 1. How does Rafale ToT help DRDO. Explain.



Your lack of comprehension skills, ignorance and naivety is leading you to believe I said something I didn't.

Where did I say it will take 20-30 years to absorb technology? Please quote.



But didn't he say ToT for Su-30MKI was given back in 2007? You yourself quoted it.

Can you explain what he meant when he said ToT hasn't helped?



You mentioned something about comprehension also. Apart from that IQ tests can be copied too, you just need to know how.



When did he say anything about Arjun? Can you post links...

What I pointed out is even he doesn't think Shukla is reliable, so I was pointing out not to use Shukla as a reference for anything. He is not a good source. Basically, he has an axe to grind.

And have you actually read the real opinions of Ray about DRDO? He is one of those who thinks DRDO should be shut down. And he has worked with DRDO in the past.

p2prada you are going to give me endless laughter fits with your lack of logic and comprehension..... I think you still need to take an IQ test and as I mentioned from an internationally recognised test method... I suppose you passed your exams using the same method you just mentioned on how to crack an IQ test.

I have posted link with specific post quotes by Brig. Ray so go re check. The point here is Brig Ray might/might not like Ajai or DRDO but his opinion on Arjun Mk2 is contrary to what you believe in.

You are like an old scooter that gets stuck in one gear and refuses to change..... I have mentioned why and on what topics I quoted Capt Satish And AC Matty but you are still stuck on beating ToT.

The rest as they say is : never indulge in an argument with a fool coz he will first bring you down to his level and then beat you with far superior experience at being stupid.

With that I change my earlier opinion of thinking of you as a well intention person and rest my case!

 

[power_monger]

ER sakthivel

- whats this RCS reduction mechanism? Does tejas mk2 try to reduces its RCS on fly by changing its altitude?

 

[ersakthivel]

ER sakthivel

- whats this RCS reduction mechanism? Does tejas mk2 try to reduces its RCS on fly by changing its altitude?

Standard shaping techniques from the design stage itself

1.with minimizing high radar reflecting shapes avoiding pointed return of radar waves to the enemy radar like exposed compressor blades ,

2.Avoiding rectangular boxy intakes which present eight more corner reflecting edges which are the highest radar reflection contributors,

3.Avoiding wing leading edges ,other surfaces like canards and edges jutting out at right angles from fuselage ,

4. High upper wing and fuselage blending minimizing radar returns from above,

5. Special materials on radome which impedes the entry of enemy radar waves while allowing one own to go out,

6.high use of composites on outer surfaces which are radar transparent , and going for internal arrangements that are also compliant with the minimal RCS efforts like a cockpit tint that minimizes radar reflection from cockpit.

6. Internal alignment of items

and treating areas where radar reflections are high with heavy RAM coat,

 

[p2prada]

p2prada you are going to give me endless laughter fits with your lack of logic and comprehension..... I think you still need to take an IQ test and as I mentioned from an internationally recognised test method... I suppose you passed your exams using the same method you just mentioned on how to crack an IQ test.

I have posted link with specific post quotes by Brig. Ray so go re check. The point here is Brig Ray might/might not like Ajai or DRDO but his opinion on Arjun Mk2 is contrary to what you believe in.

You are like an old scooter that gets stuck in one gear and refuses to change..... I have mentioned why and on what topics I quoted Capt Satish And AC Matty but you are still stuck on beating ToT.

The rest as they say is : never indulge in an argument with a fool coz he will first bring you down to his level and then beat you with far superior experience at being stupid.

With that I change my earlier opinion of thinking of you as a well intention person and rest my case!

A lot of naive nonsense.

You just proved you have literally no idea about what you are talking about.

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[p2prada]

ER sakthivel

- whats this RCS reduction mechanism? Does tejas mk2 try to reduces its RCS on fly by changing its altitude?

You are actually asking him?

Anyway, to answer your question, no.

 

[ersakthivel]

ER sakthivel

- whats this RCS reduction mechanism? Does tejas mk2 try to reduces its RCS on fly by changing its altitude?

You are actually asking him?

Anyway, to answer your question, no.

Of course he was asking it to me. Can't you read?

while flying low ,high upper fuselage ,blended wing airframe design with a larger wing which more or less fully covers most of the external stores like weapons and most of external fuel tanks,from the AWACS flying above has some advantage,Tejas has no canards and its air intake is below wings as well.

take a look at where the shadow of the wing falls on the external fuel tank and BVR missiles ,to see how much area is jutting out in front of the wing leading edge.

over fighters with mid or low fuselage -wing blending, exposing their external weapons jutting in front of their wing leading edge , because of their smaller area wings.

which fighter will present a cluttered upper surface to AWACS more?

The ones which expose more of external stores along with fixed fueling probe , boxy rectangular air intakes in the front and huge canards with extra corner reflections with lesser wing upper fuselage body blending or the one which has none of the above radar reflectors and smaller in actual size ?

Wing tip pylons will also contribute largely due to their radar friendly clutter on both sides of the wings. Because the fully exposed missile fins and pylon clutter on both sides of the wing is a big radar reflector as well as well.


Small things like these do matter in delaying detection a few more Kms.

 

[Ripples]

Read that first statement again, in red. He said all ToT has been transferred, just that HAL couldn't absorb it. Is it the Russian's fault that the dumb Indian scientists couldn't absorb technology? @Singh

Yet you are confident that when it comes to Rafael HAL will somehow manage the TOT part ? If not then why paying extra for the same?
After every one or two posts you keep harping about the absence of knowledge in the common members in this forum regarding ToT. So rather than indulging in endless frivolous and immature personal attack and counter attack why don't you write an article explaining the ideas behind the concept of TOT in a formal way along with credible links. I think it will be nice to read.

 

[power_monger]

You are actually asking him?

Anyway, to answer your question, no.

I knew F35 B had such options to reduce its RCS on fly by altering its altitude to deflect lesser waves.Just wrongly interpreted what Sakthivel had written.

 

[power_monger]

Sakthivel,

Until Tejas comes with internal weapon stores,Tejas will be visible due to its weapon pod. Stealth pod is still quite far away. So in my opinion,RCS for either raffale or tejas will make no meaning difference in warfare.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sakthivel,

Until Tejas comes with internal weapon stores,Tejas will be visible due to its weapon pod. Stealth pod is still quite far away. So in my opinion,RCS for either raffale or tejas will make no meaning difference in warfare.

Yes,

But showing lower clutter level to AWACS flying high above is also a fact.

Same applies to stealth compliant external weapon pods. From high above a relatively larger wing for its size can hide more of it from high altitude flying AWACS.

 

[p2prada]

I knew F35 B had such options to reduce its RCS on fly by altering its altitude to deflect lesser waves.Just wrongly interpreted what Sakthivel had written.

They don't reduce altitude, they change their orientation with respect to the emitter. Changing altitude while showing the biggest RCS return is pointless. Regular aircraft cannot do that because that wasn't part of the design requirement.