Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

Oh well since you insist here is what FGFA is all about :

Is India handing over Blank Cheque to Russia for Pak-Fa Project ? | idrw.org

Go through it with a minute comb and you will find what is extremly obvious is that we are on a joy ride with FGFA. We are funding a 5th Gen project for the Russians who have the majority stake with techs and IP's and even royalty. HAL will not get more than 15% and even IAF has raised concerns about it .... though we are shelling out 50% of the entire cost!! We wont even have IP or get Royalty out of the said investment in FGFA!

More fart and nonsense. Everything in the article is false.

We will get 50% IP, it is confirmed. Ownership of FGFA is 50-50.

MKI was a direct purchase. There was no royalty involved from the beginning. The same with Rafale, they will make an Indian specific version and even that will not have royalty. For FGFA the jet will be co-owned and exported together, just like Brahmos.

IAF officers cannot fly the PAKFA prototypes, only HAL and Sukhoi pilots can do that. As of today nobody knows what's the status of HAL's pilots. Even VVS pilots got to fly the aircraft for the first time only this year in state tests.

If the Russians did not let us touch the aircraft, then he wouldn't be sitting inside the cockpit.

As for my naivity the above link answers your opinion.

Believing everything you read makes you naive.

Secondly about the Scorpene the situation is serious enough for the RM to step in and exert influence.... that is on the record and I suppose your standard arguement (as always) is its all cock and bull!
So what compelled the who incidentally is also a FM to go and check on the Scorpene production line??

Like I said, we civvies won't know much until more information comes.

As for the points I raised about ToT you still have nt grasped the arguement...... HAL is an independent agency comapred to GTRE which is a DRDO lab but what is the benifit of a ToT going to a manufacturing unit where as the same said ToT is required for accelerating our defense products which are incidentally designed by DRDO! I am arguing again that DRDO should be the design agency, HAL the Lead integrator and get private players to help with LRU's....if this is a naive suggestion than please enlighten me with your intelligence and come up with a suggestion from your own side.
Or are you just good enuff to point out flaws with everything but can never come up with a solution !

What are you even talking about?

What's ToT got to do with anything that you said here?

If HAL gets ToT in a different project and DRDO is the design agency for a different project, then how will HAL's ToT help DRDO? Make some sense when you write posts.

1) You said "Fart and Nonsense" for my claim regarding Pakistan exporting arms heres's a report for your consideration (I expect you to call it false news)

Did Pakistan Supplied medium-range missiles to Azerbaijan ? | idrw.org

Fart and nonsense. Don't make me repeat.

Idrw is a copy-paste source.

2) You said IA and IAF has a far higher domestic arms compared to IN...now you are missing the trees for the woods....everyone knows IN is inducting DOMESTICALLY DESIGNED AND BUILT PLATFORMS WHEREAS IA / IAF ARE NOT!! PM & RM are exceptionaly pleased with IN and the frequent visits illustrates that and you will see this happening more and more infact heres' an article to prove :

All with foreign engines and weapons. Indigenous weapons are weapons where the entire supply line is present inside the country, completely controlled by Indian companies or the govt. None of the navy's weapons match that description. OTOH, the T-90 and MKI fit this description. Period. Arjun, LCA, Kolkata class, and Vikramaditya don't fit this description.

Key word here is Domestically Designed Platforms which makes you self reliant whereas the said ToT's we have had has only given us screwdriveri license!

It doesn't matter if the system is designed here or somewhere else. What matters more is the location of the supply chain.

3) Now Your naivity is astonishing since you are turning my arguement on its head by giving the M&M v/s TATA example. Your argument is like comparing chalk and cheese where as the point is what is the use of a ToT which is limited to producing a single series be it MKI/Mig 21 or T90? All you have learnt is how to manufacture those foreign arms but have nothing to show when it comes to those said ToT's helping us produce our own!! All you done is financed a project for a foreign country such as MKI which is proving a very profitable export material.

That's the point of ToT. It is not meant to help us directly in other projects. Getting ToT in Rafale doesn't mean Rafale technologies will be used in LCA or AMCA. It only means Rafale will be fully supplied by Indian companies.

4) A non entity called Ray has more weight age than a long time defense industry insider called Ajai Shukla?? Impressive argument p2prada you have left me speechless!!

You don't get it. Ajai Shukla's real opinions are completely different what from he writes for public consumption. He is on record saying Arjun is a worthless tin can. Ajai Shukla was a member of Bharatrakshak for a short duration back in 2004 where he discussed about Arjun with some of the members there, including Ray and OOE. His opinions then were the real opinions, not the one you see today.

And yes, Ray is a brigadier who served his entire life in the military whereas Ajai Shukla spent only half his life in the army with the rank of a Col. There is a huge gap in rank between a Col and a Brigadier in the army. But I guess you didn't know. Or you are just naive. That gives him more weight than Shukla.

 

[halloweene]

Nice to see Sergeï, very kind man... Oh btw did you know he is a fan of Rafale (of course he is even more fan of Su products!) And he speaks french better than english btw...

 

[Zebra]

Ownership of FGFA is 50-50.

@p2prada

Elaborate this, please.

***************************************************************

I thought FGFA is exclusively for IAF, hence it will be 100% Indian project and totally financed by Indian govt. But executed jointly by Sukhoi and few Indian PSUs.

If it is true what I just said above, then why India gets only 50%.

It should 100%, its our tax payers money.

At the end of the day Russian get paid what they worked for FGFA.

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada

Elaborate this, please.

***************************************************************

I thought FGFA is exclusively for IAF, hence it will be 100% Indian project and totally financed by Indian govt. But executed jointly by Sukhoi and few Indian PSUs.

If it is true what I just said above, then why India gets only 50%.

It should 100%, its our tax payers money.

At the end of the day Russian get paid what they worked for FGFA.

First, HAL and Sukhoi will create a jointly owned company called.. whatever, like Brahmos Aerospace which is between NPO Mashinostroeyenia and DRDO.

Secondly, since it is a jointly owned company, both companies will be investing equally. So, the investment level is 50-50. Half the money is from India and the other half from Russia. Due to the 50-50 investment clause, even the IPR will be owned in 50-50 terms.

So, Russia is investing 50% of the total funding in order to develop an aircraft for the IAF.

Again common sense and logic is the answer. If somebody invests half the money, they own half the company.

 

[Zebra]

First, HAL and Sukhoi will create a jointly owned company called.. whatever, like Brahmos Aerospace which is between NPO Mashinostroeyenia and DRDO.

Secondly, since it is a jointly owned company, both companies will be investing equally. So, the investment level is 50-50. Half the money is from India and the other half from Russia. Due to the 50-50 investment clause, even the IPR will be owned in 50-50 terms.

So, Russia is investing 50% of the total funding in order to develop an aircraft for the IAF.

Again common sense and logic is the answer. If somebody invests half the money, they own half the company.

Can you provide any source for this?

And FGFA is not for Russian airforce, isn't it?

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Can you provide any source for this?

And FGFA is not for Russian airforce, isn't it?

FGFA is one of the export model of T-50. It will be exported to other countries interested in procuring a 5th Gen fighter.
Like Bhramos , both India and Russia will need to approve the sales.

It wont be used by Russian Air Force. FGFA will have 30% change in design to match Indian Requirements, with many indigenous, locally developed systems on it.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

First, HAL and Sukhoi will create a jointly owned company called.. whatever, like Brahmos Aerospace which is between NPO Mashinostroeyenia and DRDO.

Secondly, since it is a jointly owned company, both companies will be investing equally. So, the investment level is 50-50. Half the money is from India and the other half from Russia. Due to the 50-50 investment clause, even the IPR will be owned in 50-50 terms.

So, Russia is investing 50% of the total funding in order to develop an aircraft for the IAF.

Again common sense and logic is the answer. If somebody invests half the money, they own half the company.

Sir, What I dont understand is why production of FGFA in India will be much more costly than production of T-50 in Russia.
As far as what present sources go, FGFA will be built completely in India, much like the MKI.
So shouldnt the cost atleast be comparable to T-50 , not double of the design its based on?

 

[p2prada]

Can you provide any source for this?

Just google it. It is easily available.

And FGFA is not for Russian airforce, isn't it?

No. FGFA is for IAF. PAKFA is for VVS.

 

[p2prada]

Sir, What I dont understand is why production of FGFA in India will be much more costly than production of T-50 in Russia. As far as what present sources go, FGFA will be built completely in India, much like the MKI.
So shouldnt the cost atleast be comparable to T-50 , not double of the design its based on?

There is no such information available. Any news which did not come from a very official source like the top brass or Sukhoi/HAL officials should be treated as false.

FGFA won't cost twice that of PAKFA anyway. Certain systems will be more expensive than the Russian version based on requirements, like the 360 degree radar which the Russians don't want. But this shouldn't increase costs.

For any FGFA news, the article must be widely reported and confirmed by multiple sources. Anything else is most likely to be false.

You will find very limited information about FGFA, T-90 and Arihant because of that. These are strategic projects. A little bit extra gets out in the case of T-90 and FGFA because foreign companies are also involved and stuff ends up in the Parliament.

You can drop the "sir."

 

[Punya Pratap]

p2prada I dont think you comprehend what I m saying but people at the recently concluded Stratpost do...this is an excerpt from the final session when they started putting forward solutions.

And yes they realised the same thing I have been saying:

1) How much ToT is benefited us inspite of all the tonnes of money we have spent!

2) HAL, GTRE, IAF, DRDO all need to synergise!

I dont think you would understand so as always you will be answering on a tangent

I would say that if I had to talk about what does building an aircraft constitute of. Building an aircraft constitutes of, maybe, flight dynamics then creating the main engineering of the structures and then the engine. So if I have to even broadly deconstruct as aircraft design, airframe construction, engine building and then get into weapons and launching and delivery, with what we would get in terms of technologies from these programs plus what we already have in LCA, I think we should have, hopefully, at least addressed the airframe part of it.

Your biggest challenge is going to remain in the zone of engines. If we are to look at investing money, energy in trying to get maximum bang for the buck I would say that all our energies as a nation – and we've heard enough of national visions and national capital and all that – I think as a nation HAL, air force, ADA, GTRE – everybody combined – needs to focus maximum efforts in getting an engine.

Because much as we know, nobody is going to give you engine technology very easily. Even China which has been manufacturing far higher quality of materials – I'm not even going into production and our quality of production and other matters. We've not even produced one single engine which is really good. I think the only example we have – I'm sorry for digressing – but the best model of very high production quality that we have in our country is Bharat Forge where they're producing the transmission shaft, I think, for Mercedes. So we can learn from examples like that, that's a different chapter altogether but the point is that we have to deconstruct – see which are the points that we have – with marginal increase in that we can achieve our goals.

Where do we need to emphasize maximum – where do we need to put our maximum efforts across this bridge of building our own aircraft. Ultimately there is no question of air power, there is no question of power unless it is your own power. So we have to come to an understanding that you have to build your own aircraft. – Capt (retd.) PVS Satish IN

It is not enough to look at the cost of imports alone. How much does it cost us for producing it within the country? Why does it cost more? That's one important issue we need to look at. Which means that you go into the contracts that you've signed – and enough number of license productions contracts you've signed. How much do we leverage in terms of technologies? So I can give you a figure from the 2011-12 balance sheet of the HAL – in an expenditure close to 14,000 crores, 96 percent is spent on raw materials and components imports. That much money goes outside. So what's your value addition? Less than four percent. That means that gives you an indication as to how much have you really absorbed.

In 2007, Sukhoi-30 engine technology transfer, single crystal bay technology has been transferred to HAL. They've still not completely absorbed it. So that's a huge problem. It talks about your public sector units' skill levels and that will link you up to the policies and other issues. IF you haven't absorbed, then it's costing you money. Because you're paying through your nose.

What is the point of getting technology if you don't factor that in your contract that I will substitute your materials with my products made from my materials. Not one of them have been done, nor substituted as yet.
We have MIDHANI which is supposed to be developing aircraft materials – we don't use any of those materials in aircraft production within the country. We import all of them. We import carbon fibers for the LCA. So the LCA is quite import-dependent, for those of you who don't know.

So we need to look at this from a larger perspective. It's quite a bit of a fallacy that gets projected that a lot of it is indigenous. Much of it is not indigenous and we need to recognize that fact and address that from a larger perspective. That is where the national strategy comes into the picture.

Unless you have an aerospace strategy or aeronautics strategy, which looks into how do you now get control over critical technologies, how do you develop the eco-system and then have a national policy that addresses the overall contract-signing, procurement, acquisitions and indigenous development, you will never reach where you want to reach.

And surprisingly, this proposal for National Aeronautics Commission has been on since 1969, from C Subramanium Committee. And surprisingly, the MoD has always objected to making that commission. And I believe they're even objecting to it now, as our discussions are on. I don't know why.

The issue is you want to carry on the way you're managing your system now, which is largely public sector system. You need to move away from that. You need to actually wind up DDP (Department of Defense Production), you need to create a ministry of aerospace industries and you need to encourage the privatization of most of the running of the DPSUs in the corporate model.

The financial model that we follow now does not indicate the production inefficiency or production efficiency. They make profit every time, whereas actually they make losses. Huge losses.

We are not recognizing the fact that we are not getting value for the money that we spend. We are not getting control over technology. We have no control over critical technology. We are so import-dependent; we better recognize that fact and then change our policies accordingly. And that's the major problem with our entire process. – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran

Everything is made in India. Raw materials for the main aircraft come from Russia while spares use Indian raw materials. Titanium forges comes from Russia because it is not feasible to make them in India at lower costs. Meaning, it is cheaper to get the forges from Russia. It is the same with landing carriage, it is made in Russia because HAL couldn't make is at acceptable rates in India. Ejection seat is imported too. Everything else, including radar and engine, is made in India.



Fake news. Contract cannot be negotiated without transfer of technical documents. Air Chief Marshal confirmed that the documents were transferred.



Fake news again. T-90 contract was actually signed in 2006, not 2001.



Unfortunately, the Arjun was too late. It became pointless.

And the General turned out to be wrong since all ToT for T-90 was transferred.



The Russians have always transferred their gun technology to us since the T-55. Even the T-72's gun technology was transferred, along with the rest of the tank. The T-90 originally used the T-72's gun which IA rejected. Today, we manufacture the T-90's gun indigenously.

Artillery is an entirely different problem. Bofors ToT was given and now a new gun is being developed.

India, Russia resolve T90 technology transfer issues - Indian Express

Russia to deliver T-90 gun barrel technology | Zee News



If we just wait and watch, then contract won't be fulfilled and Rafales will not be manufactured. And Dassault won't make money. The contract asks for indigenous manufacturing of a lot of Rafales. It cannot be done without ToT. If Dassault does not honor the contract for whatever reasons then Rafale production will halt, like it was the case with Scorpene production which halted until MDL could absorb ToT.

It is the same with MKI. MKIs are being manufactured today because ToT was given. If ToT wasn't given then MKI manufacturing would have halted a long time ago. Common sense, isn't it?

It is the same with T-90. A new indent for manufacturing 200+ tanks was given. That means T-90 ToT was also complete. Without ToT what's the point in securing the new order?

As for the T90's & FGFA you are writing BS... I shall post the links where IAF itself was on record saying HAL is not getting more than 15% work share!

Secondly I shall post the independent review of Israeli's on Arjun Tank. As for Ajai Shukla and his comment on Arjun in circa 2004... I might like to point out that 10 years has elapsed and Arjun Mk2 has evolved so has Ajai's opinion.

As for Brigadier Ray kindly go through the page no 388/390 and relook at his entire take on Arjun / INSAS and Foreign arms!! I suggest post no 5841/5843/5844 posted by Brig Ray !

Also while you are at it tell me where has Brig Ray called Arjun inefrior to T90??

 

[ersakthivel]

p2prada I dont think you comprehend what I m saying but people at the recently concluded Stratpost do...this is an excerpt from the final session when they started putting forward solutions.

And yes they realised the same thing I have been saying:

1) How much ToT is benefited us inspite of all the tonnes of money we have spent!

2) HAL, GTRE, IAF, DRDO all need to synergise!

I dont think you would understand so as always you will be answering on a tangent

I would say that if I had to talk about what does building an aircraft constitute of. Building an aircraft constitutes of, maybe, flight dynamics then creating the main engineering of the structures and then the engine. So if I have to even broadly deconstruct as aircraft design, airframe construction, engine building and then get into weapons and launching and delivery, with what we would get in terms of technologies from these programs plus what we already have in LCA, I think we should have, hopefully, at least addressed the airframe part of it.

Your biggest challenge is going to remain in the zone of engines. If we are to look at investing money, energy in trying to get maximum bang for the buck I would say that all our energies as a nation – and we've heard enough of national visions and national capital and all that – I think as a nation HAL, air force, ADA, GTRE – everybody combined – needs to focus maximum efforts in getting an engine.

Because much as we know, nobody is going to give you engine technology very easily. Even China which has been manufacturing far higher quality of materials – I'm not even going into production and our quality of production and other matters. We've not even produced one single engine which is really good. I think the only example we have – I'm sorry for digressing – but the best model of very high production quality that we have in our country is Bharat Forge where they're producing the transmission shaft, I think, for Mercedes. So we can learn from examples like that, that's a different chapter altogether but the point is that we have to deconstruct – see which are the points that we have – with marginal increase in that we can achieve our goals.

Where do we need to emphasize maximum – where do we need to put our maximum efforts across this bridge of building our own aircraft. Ultimately there is no question of air power, there is no question of power unless it is your own power. So we have to come to an understanding that you have to build your own aircraft. – Capt (retd.) PVS Satish IN

It is not enough to look at the cost of imports alone. How much does it cost us for producing it within the country? Why does it cost more? That's one important issue we need to look at. Which means that you go into the contracts that you've signed – and enough number of license productions contracts you've signed. How much do we leverage in terms of technologies? So I can give you a figure from the 2011-12 balance sheet of the HAL – in an expenditure close to 14,000 crores, 96 percent is spent on raw materials and components imports. That much money goes outside. So what's your value addition? Less than four percent. That means that gives you an indication as to how much have you really absorbed.

In 2007, Sukhoi-30 engine technology transfer, single crystal bay technology has been transferred to HAL. They've still not completely absorbed it. So that's a huge problem. It talks about your public sector units' skill levels and that will link you up to the policies and other issues. IF you haven't absorbed, then it's costing you money. Because you're paying through your nose.

What is the point of getting technology if you don't factor that in your contract that I will substitute your materials with my products made from my materials. Not one of them have been done, nor substituted as yet.

We have MIDHANI which is supposed to be developing aircraft materials – we don't use any of those materials in aircraft production within the country. We import all of them. We import carbon fibers for the LCA. So the LCA is quite import-dependent, for those of you who don't know.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=108881

M/s Accord Software & Systems Ltd., Bengaluru, has immensely contributed towards indigenous design, development and production of advanced high dynamics GPS+GLONASS+GAGAN receivers with state-of-the-art technologies and features in multiple configurations to the specific requirements/ specifications of Indian Defence programmes in close coordination with DRDO laboratories.

· M/s Aerospace Engineers, Salem, Tamil Nadu, has displayed profound technical expertise in absorbing various technologies and has delivered high-precision and quality elastomeric products manufactured out of these technologies for use on various airborne systems developed by DRDO that include LCA, Lakshya, Nishant, Missiles, Life Saving Systems, aircrafts and helicopters.
· M/s Krishna Industries, Mumbai has displayed pioneering efforts towards indigenous production of "Bulb Bars" of various sections of DMR-249A grade steel, on industrial scale, in association with DRDO for construction of warships by devising ingenious roll design, rolling parameters and novel heat treatment technique. Their sustained efforts have culminated in producing high quality bulb bars for the first time in the country, thereby meeting the requirements of the Indian Navy in a timely and cost effective manner.

So we need to look at this from a larger perspective. It's quite a bit of a fallacy that gets projected that a lot of it is indigenous. Much of it is not indigenous and we need to recognize that fact and address that from a larger perspective. That is where the national strategy comes into the picture.

As usual the air marshal is very poorly informed and making knee jerk comments.

There are many small scale private sector units and other smaller PSUs that are making parts for the HAL(as per the design and spec supplied by ) and HAL finally assembles them is my opinion.

So if you look at the balance sheet HAL would be paying for the goods invoiced and supplied to it. Our great matsy matheswaran does not understands(or as usual lies about it ) it and blindly farts that nothing is made here in HAL after all the TOT!!!!

That is why if we go by the advice of retiring and retired IAF brass we will soon become a banana republic with tin pot dictators at the top like pakistan.

We have to import raw materials for composites because we can not set up a raw material manufacturing plant with hundreds of crores of investments just to supply them for 10 or twelve tejas air frame!!!!

And IAF giving 40 only order for tejas mk1 further postpones the composite raw material manufacturing here.

case in point is the closed MRF unit which was set up to manufacture tracks for Arjun after army curtailed the orders to just 124.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...15-indias-future-main-battle-tank-fmbt-9.html.

So unless a large order is given we can not set up a plant to make 20 plus or 40 plus unit of a high tech item. because the unit investment cost will be huge and we can not justify the investment. if a thousand plus order is given them cost will fall significantly with many more parts being made locally with financial viability.

that is why Army keeps rationing Arjun orders to just 120 unit in every order lot spread over a decade!!!. SO that to keep costs high and derail the program slowly claiming that Arjun is prohibitively costly and most items are imported!!!!

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravj...he-chief-of-drdo-avinash-chander-part-ii.html

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, all kinds of convoluted arguments are sometimes made in this country against Indian military exports, even though imports are somehow deemed thoroughly moral by the same set of people. How would you respond to this?

Avinash Chander: If you see any market, it is the need which creates the capacity. Nobody creates idle capacity hoping for a market. If a market is seen to exist for exports you will have any number of private players willing to come forward to take part in it. What India needs is the freedom to create. All these years we have been bogged down by controls.

The government is committed to military exports and we are also committed because today we have many indigenously developed world class technologies under production. Given that these are actually replacing imported systems, they can definitely be deemed export worthy. If we want to make our systems cost effective, if we want to have an area of influence, India has to get into military exports.

Unless you have an aerospace strategy or aeronautics strategy, which looks into how do you now get control over critical technologies, how do you develop the eco-system and then have a national policy that addresses the overall contract-signing, procurement, acquisitions and indigenous development, you will never reach where you want to reach.

And surprisingly, this proposal for National Aeronautics Commission has been on since 1969, from C Subramanium Committee. And surprisingly, the MoD has always objected to making that commission. And I believe they're even objecting to it now, as our discussions are on. I don't know why.

The issue is you want to carry on the way you're managing your system now, which is largely public sector system. You need to move away from that. You need to actually wind up DDP (Department of Defense Production), you need to create a ministry of aerospace industries and you need to encourage the privatization of most of the running of the DPSUs in the corporate model.

The financial model that we follow now does not indicate the production inefficiency or production efficiency. They make profit every time, whereas actually they make losses. Huge losses.

We are not recognizing the fact that we are not getting value for the money that we spend. We are not getting control over technology. We have no control over critical technology. We are so import-dependent; we better recognize that fact and then change our policies accordingly. And that's the major problem with our entire process. – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran







As for the T90's & FGFA you are writing BS... I shall post the links where IAF itself was on record saying HAL is not getting more than 15% work share!

Secondly I shall post the independent review of Israeli's on Arjun Tank. As for Ajai Shukla and his comment on Arjun in circa 2004... I might like to point out that 10 years has elapsed and Arjun Mk2 has evolved so has Ajai's opinion.

As for Brigadier Ray kindly go through the page no 388/390 and relook at his entire take on Arjun / INSAS and Foreign arms!! I suggest post no 5841/5843/5844 posted by Brig Ray !

Also while you are at it tell me where has Brig Ray called Arjun inefrior to T90??

So I can give you a figure from the 2011-12 balance sheet of the HAL – in an expenditure close to 14,000 crores, 96 percent is spent on raw materials and components imports. That much money goes outside. So what's your value addition? Less than four percent. That means that gives you an indication as to how much have you really absorbed.

4 percent wont even cover the electricity and salary expenses. So what stupid claim is this?

In 2007, Sukhoi-30 engine technology transfer, single crystal bay technology has been transferred to HAL. They've still not completely absorbed it. So that's a huge problem. It talks about your public sector units' skill levels and that will link you up to the policies and other issues. IF you haven't absorbed, then it's costing you money. Because you're paying through your nose.

As usual the air marshal is very poorly informed and making knee jerk comments.

There are many small scale private sector units and other smaller PSUs that are making parts for the HAL(as per the design and spec supplied by ) and HAL finally assembles them is my opinion.

So if you look at the balance sheet HAL would be paying for the goods invoiced and supplied to it. Our great matsy matheswaran does not understands(or as usual lies about it ) it and blindly farts that nothing is made here in HAL after all the TOT!!!!

That is why if we go by the advice of retiring and retired IAF brass we will soon become a banana republic with tin pot dictators at the top like pakistan.

We have to import raw materials for composites because we can not set up a raw material manufacturing plant with hundreds of crores of investments just to supply them for 10 or twelve tejas air frame!!!!

And IAF giving 40 only order for tejas mk1 further postpones the composite raw material manufacturing here.

case in point is the closed MRF unit which was set up to manufacture tracks for Arjun after army curtailed the orders to just 124.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...15-indias-future-main-battle-tank-fmbt-9.html.

So unless a large order is given we can not set up a plant to make 20 plus or 40 plus unit of a high tech item. because the unit investment cost will be huge and we can not justify the investment. if a thousand plus order is given them cost will fall significantly with many more parts being made locally with financial viability.

that is why Army keeps rationing Arjun orders to just 120 unit in every order lot spread over a decade!!!. SO that to keep costs high and derail the program slowly claiming that Arjun is prohibitively costly and most items are imported!!!!


http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravj...he-chief-of-drdo-avinash-chander-part-ii.html

Saurav Jha: Dr Chander, all kinds of convoluted arguments are sometimes made in this country against Indian military exports, even though imports are somehow deemed thoroughly moral by the same set of people. How would you respond to this?

Avinash Chander: If you see any market, it is the need which creates the capacity. Nobody creates idle capacity hoping for a market. If a market is seen to exist for exports you will have any number of private players willing to come forward to take part in it. What India needs is the freedom to create. All these years we have been bogged down by controls.

The government is committed to military exports and we are also committed because today we have many indigenously developed world class technologies under production. Given that these are actually replacing imported systems, they can definitely be deemed export worthy. If we want to make our systems cost effective, if we want to have an area of influence, India has to get into military exports.

these are all the devious games played in the vayu start post conference by less than honest retired IAF top brass to paint a picture of hopelessness.

Each and every sentence uttered by Air marshal matheswaran will be exposed as twisting of facts to suit his own needs and plain lies if you dig deep.

And less said the better about the Single crystal blade tech claim by him. Tell me if we buy 126 rafales from french , will they transfer the SCB tech of their m-88 engines?

if that is the case I will fully support the rafale buy even if it comes to 20 billion dollars!!!!

The real truth is the Su-30 MKI TOT is construed in such a way that we dont get anything useful in TOT,

For example I read somewhere that even the titanium airframe blocks were imported from russian and only machining is done in HAL. That was how the TOT contract was composed. It is not that we dont have the tech to make these titanium blocks here. It is not that the tech to make titanium blocks cant be had here, with or without russian help. The real reason behind such clause is that we finally end up paying whatever the russians demand for their raw materials.

but Matheswaran as usual misinterprets these facts to conveniently suit his view point that "nothing is made here and we should straight away pay 20 billion dollars to rafale" .

 

[Punya Pratap]

Wrong Thread

 

[Punya Pratap]

I think T90 & FGFA are unduly occupying Rafale thread... sorry Mods wont happen again!

 

[Punya Pratap]

As usual the air marshal is very poorly informed and making knee jerk comments.

There are many small scale private sector units and other smaller PSUs that are making parts for the HAL(as per the design and spec supplied by ) and HAL finally assembles them is my opinion.

So if you look at the balance sheet HAL would be paying for the goods invoiced and supplied to it. Our great matsy matheswaran does not understands(or as usual lies about it ) it and blindly farts that nothing is made here in HAL after all the TOT!!!!

That is why if we go by the advice of retiring and retired IAF brass we will soon become a banana republic with tin pot dictators at the top like pakistan.

We have to import raw materials for composites because we can not set up a raw material manufacturing plant with hundreds of crores of investments just to supply them for 10 or twelve tejas air frame!!!!

And IAF giving 40 only order for tejas mk1 further postpones the composite raw material manufacturing here.

case in point is the closed MRF unit which was set up to manufacture tracks for Arjun after army curtailed the orders to just 124.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...15-indias-future-main-battle-tank-fmbt-9.html.

So unless a large order is given we can not set up a plant to make 20 plus or 40 plus unit of a high tech item. because the unit investment cost will be huge and we can not justify the investment. if a thousand plus order is given them cost will fall significantly with many more parts being made locally with financial viability.

that is why Army keeps rationing Arjun orders to just 120 unit in every order lot spread over a decade!!!. SO that to keep costs high and derail the program slowly claiming that Arjun is prohibitively costly and most items are imported!!!!


Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with the Chief of DRDO, Avinash Chander -Part II



these are all the devious games played in the vayu start post conference by less than honest retired IAF top brass to paint a picture of hopelessness.

Each and every sentence uttered by Air marshal matheswaran will be exposed as twisting of facts to suit his own needs and plain lies if you dig deep.

And less said the better about the Single crystal blade tech claim by him. Tell me if we buy 126 rafales from french , will they transfer the SCB tech of their m-88 engines?

if that is the case I will fully support the rafale buy even if it comes to 20 billion dollars!!!!

The real truth is the Su-30 MKI TOT is construed in such a way that we dont get anything useful in TOT,

For example I read somewhere that even the titanium airframe blocks were imported from russian and only machining is done in HAL. That was how the TOT contract was composed. It is not that we dont have the tech to make these titanium blocks here. It is not that the tech to make titanium blocks cant be had here, with or without russian help. The real reason behind such clause is that we finally end up paying whatever the russians demand for their raw materials.

but Matheswaran as usual misinterprets these facts to conveniently suit his view point that "nothing is made here and we should straight away pay 20 billion dollars to rafale" .

Ersakthievel for your reference : India Ordering, Modernizing SU-30MKIs

 

[p2prada]

p2prada I dont think you comprehend what I m saying

You don't know what ToT is.

1) How much ToT is benefited us inspite of all the tonnes of money we have spent!

A lot.

I dont think you would understand so as always you will be answering on a tangent

Without understanding ToT, you wouldn't know much about anything.

As for the T90's & FGFA you are writing BS... I shall post the links where IAF itself was on record saying HAL is not getting more than 15% work share!

Another area where you do not know what you are talking about.

Workshare is different from ToT.

As for Ajai Shukla and his comment on Arjun in circa 2004... I might like to point out that 10 years has elapsed and Arjun Mk2 has evolved so has Ajai's opinion.

15 years later, Mk2 is as good as a T-90S in terms of firepower, protection and some other features. T-90MS will have 300+ orders soon. T-90S will also be upgraded with most of the stuff that's on Arjun Mk2.

The Arjun program died in 1998. What you see today is DRDO trying to salvage the program by pressuring the MoD to buy more tanks. It was DRDO which allowed the import of the T-90s because they understood they failed at delivering the Arjun.

As for Brigadier Ray kindly go through the page no 388/390 and relook at his entire take on Arjun / INSAS and Foreign arms!! I suggest post no 5841/5843/5844 posted by Brig Ray !

Which thread?

 

[ersakthivel]

I think T90 & FGFA are unduly occupying Rafale thread... sorry Mods wont happen again!

What is the point of getting technology if you don't factor that in your contract that I will substitute your materials with my products made from my materials. Not one of them have been done, nor substituted as yet.
We have MIDHANI which is supposed to be developing aircraft materials – we don't use any of those materials in aircraft production within the country. We import all of them. We import carbon fibers for the LCA. So the LCA is quite import-dependent, for those of you who don't know.

-Air marshal matheswaran

The reason I have to quote them is to expose the faulty nature of matheswaran's comments quoted in your post.

TATA Advancved material is tasked with supplying composite air frame parts for tejas.

It will send the parts to HAL and invoice the amount.

If HAL pays it out, Will mathesewaran say "Look nothing is produced by HAL, This indigenous equipment claim is bogus. Because 96 percent of HAL's expenditure is not in house production but paid out to others".

A senior IAF guy should know better than that.

HAl is the assembling agency. Not the production agency for each nut and bolt in its fighters.

it receives tech, gets sub contractors to build it and pays them out as is any MNC.

In Coimbatore even the name plates of motors are fixed by the sub contractor himself.

The brand owner does a through quality check and sends them to market.

Does that mean the parent company which owns the brand, supplied the design to the subcontractor and paid for the invoice is good for nothing?

Also matheswaran claims that Midhani produces nothing,

http://www.midhani.gov.in/titan.html

Titan 12/15----Excellent resistance to corrosion by a wide range of natural and artificial environment ---Excellent strength to weight ratio in view of low density and high strength---Airframes, aircraft engine parts, gas compression, chemical desalination, marine components, plate heat-exchangers, platinized anodes, surgicals implants, anodes for chlor-alkali cells, jigs, fixtures and baskets for electro plating.

http://www.midhani.gov.in/clientele.html

Client list mentions HAL.
http://www.midhani.gov.in/clientele.html

then where are the products sold?

It reflects very poorly on the nation's reputation when a top airforce officials like matheswaran sit in a circle and gas up about things on which they dont have an iota of info.

Just imagine the wreckage that would have been tejas if these guys were given Executive responsibility over tejas project with hire and fire authority, which they crave the most!!!!

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2009/10/strategic-producer-midhani-on-high.html

http://www.midhani.gov.in/annl_reps/ar-09-10/ar-0910-eng.pdf

American, Japanese and European non-proliferation officials are keenly aware that Hyderabad based company, Mishra Dhatu Nigam (Midhani), supplies key materials for India's nuclear, space and missile programmes. Midhani figures on all these countries' "Entity Lists", which have legally blocked supplies of materials, know-how and equipment.

But this international blockade has been in vain, I learn, during an exclusive visit to this most secretive of defence PSUs. "Despite the sanctions", says Chairman and Managing Director (CMD), K Narayana Rao, "Midhani today manufactures the world's best maraging steel, a critical component in nuclear reactors, fuel enrichment centrifuges, missiles and space rockets. The Indian Space Research Organisation's GSLV rockets are clad in Midhani's maraging steel."

Such breakthroughs in strategic materials have placed Midhani in an unusual position. With international sanctions still in place, Midhani has joined one of the world's most challenging, futuristic and expensive projects: The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, or ITER, a $10 billion, multinational project that aims to generate electricity through nuclear fusion by 2018. India joined the project in 2005.

"We have produced a material called Low Activation Ferretic Martinsitic Steel, which the ITER project urgently needs", explains a Midhani scientist. "This steel must have very low activation, allowing it to be placed in a highly radioactive environment (e.g. inside a reactor) without becoming highly radioactive itself. The ITER authorities are presently evaluating it at the Institute of Plasma Research in Gandhinagar."

This foray into ITER is a one-time thing. Midhani remains a boutique manufacturer, focused exclusively on high performance materials for India's space, nuclear and defence programmes to save them from being hostage to a supplier abroad. This is production at the cutting edge, groping in the dark, mixing and matching elements to develop materials that users have defined only as a set of properties.

"We experiment, we play with Molly", explains Narayana Rao, describing the search for special alloys. Noting my startled look, he elaborates, "Molly is short for Molybdenum, an element that gives special properties to steel."

Midhani works in close partnership with the Defence Materials Research Laboratory (DMRL), located next door. DMRL, focusing on fundamental research, develops new alloys and materials; Midhani scales up DMRL's laboratory production into industrial production.

Set up in 1972, Midhani's mandate was to indigenously produce materials for India's strategic programmes, without regard to cost or profitability. Today, Midhani delivers not only critical materials but hefty profits as well. Midhani is now a Mini Ratna, Category-1 company; its profits have gone up six-fold in the last four years to Rs 40 crores in 2008-09.

With Midhani's regular customers ramping up operations, that bottom line is poised to grow. From an average of 4-5 launches a year, ISRO is stepping up to 8 launches per year. And since nuclear power generation is a growth sector, the demand for reactor materials is likely to rise sharply. "BHEL and L&T have got a steam generator order for the Indian 700 MW Pressurised Heavy Water Reactor (PHWR)", says Narayana Rao. "I need to be ready with my equipment and materials."

The older Indian reactors, such as those at Kalpakkam, are also replacing critical components. Only Midhani supplies the metals needed for this.

Midhani has begun a Rs 200 crores expansion plan, with Rs 100 crores from its internal accruals supplemented by Rs 100 crores of equity participation by the MoD. It is adding a high-tech, 10-tonne vacuum arc refining (VAR) furnace, in which molten metal is purified by dripping it, drop-by-drop, through vacuum. The impurities, which become into gas at those temperatures, are sucked away by the vacuum.

Also being procured is a 6000-tonne forge press, to press steel into sheets as thin as 4 millimetres, needed for India's rocket programme.

"Today I'm running 2000 tonnes of products per year", says Midhani's CMD. "When the expansion plan is completed by 2010-2011, our output will double to 4000 tonnes. Turnover will go from Rs 300 crores to Rs 500 crores."

No wonder the Rip Van Winkles of LCA Ninja brigade (because saying the word tejas is the original sin) hates Ajai Shukla endlessly , for going to these facilities and reporting some truths!!!!

Also he is a traitor because he changed his opinion on Arjun after 2004. What do you expect him to do if all the niggling problems were set right after 2004 and the MOD report to parliament itself stated that Arjun is the best tank in AI?

http://frontierindia.net/indian-developments-in-materials-for-military-aero-engines

All the three kaveri engine fan discs have been produced in DMRL using Ti64 alloy,

It supplies BT-20 and BT-18 alloys to SU-30 MKI program,

hollow with internal cooling channels aerofoil castings by using CM247LC which should meet stringent quality standards.

These DS castings were qualified for air worthiness by CEMILAC for kaveri engines.

vaccume diffusion brazing process for tip and root of HPY blade of Kaveri engine has been developed in collaboration with Godrej and Boyce, Mumbai.




The site has details which list out several materials supplied by Midhani to Tejas and SUkhoi program and our Air marshals express their complete ignorance of it, even though they have the HAL balance sheet in hand!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

India Considers Buying 126 Eurofighters From Germany | idrw.org

what is this?

Another copy paste unreliable news or something cooking.

Even the value of contract 7.6 billion dollar is mentioned here!!!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

DEFENCE
Foreign guns, made in India
By R. Prasannan
Story Dated: Friday, September 5, 2014 17:48 hrs IST
Modi government shows intent with a range of defence-related measures
10 Text Size

IMAGING: JOB P.K.

Arun Jaitley has finally cut the Gordian knot of defence. The scientists in the defence labs always wanted to develop arms in India; the generals wanted to buy superior stuff from abroad; and ministers couldn't decide. Now Jaitley has met both demands half-way, and fully pleased a third party—the managers in India's defence factories.

The armed forces had asked for 384 light utility helicopters in 2010, to replace the highly agile but ageing Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, which are used for patrolling, recce, light casualty evacuation and such missions in icy Siachen, dense jungles and blazing deserts. The defence ministry had split the order in two, saying 197 may be bought off the shelf from abroad and 187 be built in India. French Eurocopter and Russian Kamov Ka-226 were tried and found to be good, but following the AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter scandal, the UPA government froze all hele purchases.

Last month, the Narendra Modi cabinet decided to allow foreign companies to invest up to 49 per cent in defence industries. The decision was notified on August 26. The next day the Jaitley-headed Defence Acquisition Council scrapped the tenders floated for buying 197 helicopters from abroad and said Indian companies will make them. If necessary, they can go for foreign collaboration. The Army can take 137 of them and the Air Force 60.

The happiest party in this move is the public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), the only Indian company that has the knowhow to make helicopters. Foreign players can come in through the FDI route, set up joint ventures and give competition to HAL, but HAL will have a head start. It has been manufacturing the Cheetahs and Chetaks under licence for decades; has developed, built and sold Dhruv light helicopters within and outside India; and has been working on a lighter (three-tonne) utility helicopter on its own to be ready by 2016-17. The third, a fully in-house development programme, had slowed down because HAL could not find an engine that suited the machine. This should now get a boost.

The council's decision is in line with the new government's philosophy that India has to manufacture more, using Indian or imported technology. This, the government hopes, should end the tug-of-war between the scientists and the services. The scientists had earlier opposed allowing FDI in defence arguing that it would kill local research and development, and that in the defence market no country sells its best to another.

Which means, the scientists argued, foreigners would invest in the Indian arms industry, but would make only things inferior to what they make in their home countries. Former defence R&D chief V.K. Saraswat had openly spoken out against increased FDI in defence manufacturing. At the other end were the armed forces, which only wanted equipment that was the best available in the world market, indigenous or imported.

The new FDI policy insists that the company seeking 49 per cent FDI should be owned and controlled by resident Indians. The government can verify the antecedents of the foreign collaborators and domestic promoters. Preference will be given to original manufacturers or design companies as collaborators.

The dampeners, as some observers put it, are that there is no purchase guarantee being offered, and a policy that the government will continue to give preference to products from PSUs. "This is unlikely to yield appropriate dividends," observes Dhruv Katoch, director of Centre for Land Warfare Studies. "A level playing field is required to remove the sloth in the defence public sector." He concedes that the new policy "represents some forward movement, but how far the above policy will succeed in drawing in FDI remains to be seen".

Bringing smiles to the scientists' faces is the decision on the much-reviled Arjun, the first battletank developed in India. Despite the tank's unique Kanchan armour and superior fire-control systems, the Army had nearly rejected Arjun (ordered just 124 of the Mark I variety) citing design flaws, and gone for import and licensed manufacture of Russian T-90 tanks. The Defence Research and Development Organisation has since developed a superior Mark II version and the council has now asked the Army to equip two regiments with 118 of Arjun Mark II for Rs6,600 crore from Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi.

When Arjun Mark I had run into problems, the DRDO's Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment had tried to make use of the tank technology to develop a unique gun system—a 130mm gun mounted on an Arjun chassis. In classic tank battles, tank columns race ahead while the slow-moving artillery guns fire from behind, over their heads, to soften enemy targets. Guns mounted on tank chassis, like the proposed one, will be able to race ahead along with tanks and thus provide them closer fire support.

The council, in which the minister of state for defence production, the three service chiefs, the defence secretary, the defence production secretary, the defence R&D secretary, the chief of integrated staff, the director-general acquisition and the deputy chief of integrated staff are members, has asked the Army to procure 40 of these guns for Rs820 crore.

Apparently, the message has spread across the services. Within days of the council meeting, Air Marshal S.B.P. Sinha, deputy chief of air staff, got into the trainer version of a Tejas light combat aircraft and flew a sortie in Bengaluru for a "first-hand experience and feel of the aircraft". This was the first time an air marshal had flown the aircraft, the prototypes of which have been flying for 14 years and which got initial operational clearance over three years ago. Said P.S. Subramanyam, programme director (combat aircraft) and director of Aeronautical Development Agency which developed the aircraft: "This flight of Tejas by a senior IAF commander indicates the high degree of confidence in the indigenous light combat aircraft."

The government's "thrust is on creating jobs within India," said one of Jaitley's finance ministry aides—even in repair and refit contracts. The Navy had been asking for repairing, overhauling and refitting six submarines—four Russian Kilos and two German HDWs—which would have cost them Rs4,800 crore over two years. The council has ordered the two HDWs and two Kilos to be refitted in India and two Kilos to be sent to Russia.

Sonars are to a ship what radars are to an airplane—they detect enemy ships and submarines. Captains of 11 Indian-built warships, including the newly-commissioned INS Kolkata and Kamorta, have been all at sea, literally, without sonars on their ships. The council has asked the ministry to procure integrated anti-submarine warfare suites for Rs1,770 crore.

There is enough to make arms-sellers happy, too. The Navy had been asking for 16 helicopters for anti-submarine warfare, but the ministry froze the deal because there were only two vendors and one of them was part-owned by Finmeccanica, which had been blacklisted over the VVIP helicopter deal. "We have been conservative in the process of acquisition of weapons," said Jaitley. "You cannot be very defensive in the defence ministry.... At every stage you have gone ahead and blacklisted people as a result of which your options of acquisition have narrowed down." Now Sikorsky of the US expects to get the order for 16 anti-sub heles, as it is the only contender left.

There had already been a plan to buy 22 Apache attack helicopters and 15 Chinook heavy-lift heles from Boeing for Rs15,000 crore, but the deals were stuck because of disputes over offsets. The defence procurement policy stipulates that foreign arms sellers should pool back 30 per cent of the value of the order to India through subcontracts, purchase of ancillaries, etc. The council now has cleared the offset offer made by Boeing, the makers of Apache and Chinook.

The abve bold part is for p2pradas information but I dont think he will get the gist of the actions DAC has taken....but IAF did and sent in a senior commander to fly Tejas to show IAF's faith in Tejas program.

Secondly p2prada is busy pointing out that HAL/DRDO/IAF/GTRE are different entities who work seperately IN Capt Satish has also backed my arguement in Stratport saying HAL/DRDO/IAF/GTRE all need to synergise as mentioned by me. Check the below statement by Capt Satish IN :

Your biggest challenge is going to remain in the zone of engines. If we are to look at investing money, energy in trying to get maximum bang for the buck I would say that all our energies as a nation – and we've heard enough of national visions and national capital and all that – I think as a nation HAL, air force, ADA, GTRE – everybody combined – needs to focus maximum efforts in getting an engine.

Thirdly Matty himself says that you wont get the source nation to hand over critical techs such as jet engines and is comments on ToT is given below :

In 2007, Sukhoi-30 engine technology transfer, single crystal bay technology has been transferred to HAL. They've still not completely absorbed it. So that's a huge problem. It talks about your public sector units' skill levels and that will link you up to the policies and other issues. IF you haven't absorbed, then it's costing you money. Because you're paying through your nose.

What is the point of getting technology if you don't factor that in your contract that I will substitute your materials with my products made from my materials. Not one of them have been done, nor substituted as yet.

So maybe now p2prada shall either bunk the credibility of the above said ex services officers or discredit Stratpost...I will be happy with either course of actions

 

[power_monger]

The Arjun program died in 1998. What you see today is DRDO trying to salvage the program by pressuring the MoD to buy more tanks. It was DRDO which allowed the import of the T-90s because they understood they failed at delivering the Arjun.

Arjun project is dead? Why was the 7000 crores which is cleared for Mk2 recently by MOD? I still can't understand your fetish for imported goods.
Thankfully, you are not targetting DRDO developed missile series.

 

[Punya Pratap]

We are not recognizing the fact that we are not getting value for the money that we spend. We are not getting control over technology. We have no control over critical technology. We are so import-dependent; we better recognize that fact and then change our policies accordingly. And that's the major problem with our entire process. – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran