The Russians have handed over all important technologies related to what we manufacture here. MKI, Brahmos, T-90 etc.Dear p2prada please note no matter how much ToT you might want you get what the source nation wants to hand over for example even though we are equal partners when it comes to investing we are getting 13% share in development with FGFA :
Indian Air Force unhappy at progress of PAK-FA fifth-gen fighter | idrw.org
The French have made assurances, like Snecma made it public that 100% of the engine will be manufactured in India.
The French made assurances for Scorpene and yet DCNS is causing delays with supplies...imagine this happening during war time!!
French supplier faltering, deadlines breached; Scorpene may take another hit says defence shipyard : India, News - India Today
China's geopolitics and industry were 0completely different. Their economy is also entirely different.
Let us not come with obtuse and vague excuses such as geopolitics and industry when it comes to emulating our face paced neighbour. The below link clearly answers to the geopolitical excuse sinc eChina no matter how much Russia objects has managed to reverse engineer the Su 30 mkm with its J16's !Link :
Russia unhappy about China's production of J-16 fighter | idrw.org
As for your answer to INDUSTRY...I will like to point out your own argument regarding the ToT and what we have done with it till date... As mentioned by you we have full ToT of MKI's and HAL is currently on Phase III of MKI production with highest indiginization but yet we cannot sort out the Kaveri engines. That is a total wastage of ToT specialy if you cannot benifit out of it. As long as whatever skills HAL has acquired out of the MKI ToT is not utilised for domestic production we are simply wasting money! Look at Pakistan which we all agree is a state in utter ruins but they are surging ahead with Shaheen exports to Ajerbaijan and JF 17 marketing while we are still stuck here haranguing. We all know Brahmos has potential to catapult us into exports but BATL is in financial ruins and needs to be refered to the Finance ministry as a sick unit that needs help!
A virtual blame game between DRDO, HAL and our armed forces instead of pooling together their resources and accumen for national interest and best part is we Indians throw unimaginable amount of dirt on each other over Discussion Forums like this for our different point of view..... we call each other the eggspert or the Arjun Brigade!! Have we thought whether our One Upmanship serves our nations interest same as whether the IAF/IA or DRDO/HAL think?? Sorry to say IN Chief Robin Dhowan is right in boasting that IN is a "makers Navy" and will be a Blue Navy even before IA or IAF can become something!! I think the IA & IAF senior brass ought to told by GOI to either get involved to sort out Tejas/ARjun or get disciplined!! If you cannot help sort out porblems than for heavens sake dont add to it!
Yes. They stick to contracts. They have handed over a lot of critical Scorpene ToT as well. They are in the process of handing over critical Mirage-2000 technologies as well, for the upgrade program.
I have replied to this above...DCNS is not supplying essential parts on time for timely deliveries...again I ask what would have happened if it was War time and DCNS was delaying??
The govt has announced that all ToT obligations from the French is already on paper and has been accepted.
What are we going to do with that ToT is my question now....HAL is sitting and sulking for not being involved in Tejas designing same as IAF!! Where is the synergy is my question!
Gun ToT was handed over to India in 2008. In 2009, we inducted the first set of tanks with the new gun. The tanks were ready before that, but IA rejected the tanks because the indigenously designed guns were faulty.
T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall
A decade after Russia contracted to provide technology for building 1,000 T-90S tanks in India, just 150 tanks have actually been built. Pictured here, completed T-90S tanks at Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF), Avadi
By Ajai Shukla
Avadi, Chennai
Business Standard, 28th Nov 11
India's purchase in 2001 of Russia's T-90S main battle tank (MBT) was touted as a world-class upgrade of our battlefield capabilities at a rock-bottom price. For Rs 3,625 crore, India would get 310 new tanks; a full transfer of technology (ToT) from Russia; and a licence to build 1000 tanks at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Chennai.
A decade later, HVF has built just 150 T-90S tanks, hamstrung by Moscow's obstruction in transferring technology and the Russia-built assemblies needed even for the India-built tanks. With India's production line stymied, the MoD bought 347 more ready-built T-90S tanks in 2007, handing Russia another Rs 4,900 crore. Even today, India's T-90S fleet remains seriously constrained; with war clouds looming after the 26/11 Mumbai terror strike, the army told the government that the strike formations were critically short of equipment.
From multiple interviews with officials who handled this contract, and from a visit to HVF Avadi, Business Standard has pieced together the full saga of the T-90S. It is an account of Russian duplicity in the face of Indian submissiveness. Moscow's readiness to disregard signed contracts was recently highlighted through its additional demands for money for the Gorshkov aircraft carrier. But the T-90S arm-twisting came before that; and constitutes a blow to the heart of Indian defence.
The Embassy of Russia in New Delhi has ignored an email asking for their comments on this issue.
Here is what happened. After the T-90S contract was signed on 15th Jan 2001, the 310 made-in-Russia tanks began to flow in quickly from Uralvagonzavod, the Russian facility that builds them. But the transfer of technology (ToT) and the supply of assemblies for building the 1000 tanks in India quickly hit a Russian stonewall.
First it took one and a half years to transfer to India the ToT documents required for building the T-90S in India. The tonnes of documents that finally arrived were found to be in Russian; translating them into English took another one and a half years.
Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.
The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."
That this remains an irritant is evident even from the careful language of MoD press releases. On 5th Oct 11, Defence Minister AK Antony met his Russian counterpart, AE Serdyukov, in the apex Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC). The Indian press release noted, "Shri Antony drew the attention of the Russian side to the vexing issue of delayed export clearances for vital repair equipment for already contracted weapons systems. This has been affecting supplies of defence equipment and spares."
By end-2007, Russia's blockade of contracted T-90S technologies and components had stalled indigenous production for almost 7 years. Under pressure from the army for more tanks, the MoD capitulated to Moscow rewarding Uralvagonzavod with an order for 347 more made-in-Russia T-90S tanks. Only after this additional contract was signed did Russia begin supplying components for building the T-90S in HVF.
An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: "Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?"
Meanwhile the army was struggling with a more immediate issue. In 2002, poised for war with Pakistan, the army found that the newly inducted T-90S fleet was not battle-worthy. The Thales-Optronika thermal imaging night sights supplied with the T-90S --- essential for firing tank weapons at night --- proved unable to function in the blistering desert summer. This remains a problem; in 2008 the MoD approached international vendors to air-condition the T-90S.
"If we manage to reduce the temperature by ten degrees, the performance of the electronics will be improved," says Sudhakar K, Joint General Manager, HVF.
Veteran tank commanders ridicule the idea of air-conditioning a tank. "It would add weight, and consume more power from the tank's limited supply. And what happens if the air-conditioning breaks down? Every tank system must function in the environment of the battlefield," says Brigadier (Retired) Vijay Nair, a former armoured brigade commander.
During that crisis with Pakistan, the army also discovered that the T-90S sights were not calibrated to Indian tank ammunition, which was falling well short of the targets that it was fired at. A panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90S's fire control computer to Indian ammunition. Meanwhile, shiploads of tank rounds were ordered from Russia at great cost.
A simultaneous crisis developed around the T-90S's Invar missile, earlier cited as a clinching reason for buying the tank. But the Invar missiles that came were unusable and they were quietly returned to Russia. On 2nd March 2006, Antony told Parliament, "The Invar missile on T-90 tank is not a failure. However, the completely knocked down kits received for assembly have been found to be defective."
Russia's status as India's premier arms supplier is being eroded by the US, France, Israel and the UK; and by indigenous advances in areas like tank building that have long been Moscow's stamping ground. The recent success of the indigenous Arjun tank; and any progress in developing the planned Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), would ensure that the T-90S is the last tank that India buys from Russia.
My experience following the industry and the military has made it very easy for me to figure out which information is true and which is false.[/QUOTE
I think you are a well intentioned person who believes there are only white and black in defense sector whereas the fact is there are more GREYS than White or Black.
Plus you need to factor in the fact that the source nation will not always elect a Govt which is friendly towards India...I have posted an article by My Yechuri in my previous mail which clearly highlights the difference between Hollande & Sarkozy!! God forbid tomorrow a Indophobia grips France of the Socilaist hard right get to power they d tell us to go scr3w ourselves!! Again I say become self reliant and stop begging others for critical techs that never come.... I m sure if DRDO/HAL/Defense forces combine their skills and synergise we can sort out our issues.....its just that as long as we have the option of imports we will never make the effort!
