Know Your 'Rafale'

[Punya Pratap]

Arjun project is dead? Why was the 7000 crores which is cleared for Mk2 recently by MOD? I still can't understand your fetish for imported goods.
Thankfully, you are not targetting DRDO developed missile series.

p2prada has decided he shall oppose everyone and that includes the DAC's decision to induct Arjun mk2... I wonder if Arjun is dead what is DAC clearing for IA inductions??

The Ghost of Arjun perhaps??

 

[Punya Pratap]

India Considers Buying 126 Eurofighters From Germany | idrw.org

what is this?

Another copy paste unreliable news or something cooking.

Even the value of contract 7.6 billion dollar is mentioned here!!!!

Ersakthivel German Foreign minister met PM Modi yesterday... German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier meets Modi : India, News - India Today

}German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier met Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj on Monday.

"On agenda are trade, investment, high tech cooperation and renewable energy collaboration," Syed Akbaruddin, Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson, said in a tweet.

Steinmeier, accompanied by a high-level business delegation, will also hold talks with Human Resource Development Minister Smriti Irani, Urban Development Minister M. Venkaiah Naidu and Commerce and Industry Minister Nirmala Sitharaman.

Steinmeier began his India visit on Saturday.

The high Tech co-operation were actually German proposal and today you have a German press even quoting the cost!!

Interesting times for Rafale

 

[p2prada]

Secondly p2prada is busy pointing out that HAL/DRDO/IAF/GTRE are different entities who work seperately IN Capt Satish has also backed my arguement in Stratport saying HAL/DRDO/IAF/GTRE all need to synergise as mentioned by me. Check the below statement by Capt Satish IN :

Your biggest challenge is going to remain in the zone of engines. If we are to look at investing money, energy in trying to get maximum bang for the buck I would say that all our energies as a nation – and we've heard enough of national visions and national capital and all that – I think as a nation HAL, air force, ADA, GTRE – everybody combined – needs to focus maximum efforts in getting an engine.

You are either too dumb to realize or being deliberately stupid.

How is any of this concerned with ToT?

He isn't talking about any kind of synergizing anyway. He is just saying we need to get engine technology ASAP, by hook or crook, by paying for it or stealing it. He is saying all that DRDO and HAL have done is fart and fart, and now it's time to change.

Thirdly Matty himself says that you wont get the source nation to hand over critical techs such as jet engines and is comments on ToT is given below :

In 2007, Sukhoi-30 engine technology transfer, single crystal bay technology has been transferred to HAL. They've still not completely absorbed it. So that's a huge problem. It talks about your public sector units' skill levels and that will link you up to the policies and other issues. IF you haven't absorbed, then it's costing you money. Because you're paying through your nose.

Read that first statement again, in red. He said all ToT has been transferred, just that HAL couldn't absorb it. Is it the Russian's fault that the dumb Indian scientists couldn't absorb technology?

However it is old news. HAL has absorbed all technologies and the MKIs made are made indigenously. His opinions come from when he was still in the IAF. Indigenization was achieved in 2010. Apparently later than originally planned, but it was done.

So maybe now p2prada shall either bunk the credibility of the above said ex services officers or discredit Stratpost...I will be happy with either course of actions

Both the quotes are consistent with what I believe in too. Just that you don't know anything to realize it.

I sincerely believe DFI should have an IQ test before membership.
@Singh

 

[p2prada]

Arjun project is dead? Why was the 7000 crores which is cleared for Mk2 recently by MOD? I still can't understand your fetish for imported goods.
Thankfully, you are not targetting DRDO developed missile series.

p2prada has decided he shall oppose everyone and that includes the DAC's decision to induct Arjun mk2... I wonder if Arjun is dead what is DAC clearing for IA inductions??

The Ghost of Arjun perhaps??

2000 T-90s ordered versus 200 Arjuns ordered. You tell me.

The Arjun brigade has been getting new members it seems.

 

[Punya Pratap]

You are either too dumb to realize or being deliberately stupid.

How is any of this concerned with ToT?

He isn't talking about any kind of synergizing anyway. He is just saying we need to get engine technology ASAP, by hook or crook, by paying for it or stealing it. He is saying all that DRDO and HAL have done is fart and fart, and now it's time to change.


Read that first statement again, in red. He said all ToT has been transferred, just that HAL couldn't absorb it. Is it the Russian's fault that the dumb Indian scientists couldn't absorb technology?

However it is old news. HAL has absorbed all technologies and the MKIs made are made indigenously. His opinions come from when he was still in the IAF. Indigenization was achieved in 2010. Apparently later than originally planned, but it was done.



Both the quotes are consistent with what I believe in too. Just that you don't know anything to realize it.

I sincerely believe DFI should have an IQ test before membership.
@Singh

Capt Satish IN says : I think as a nation HAL, air force, ADA, GTRE – everybody combined – needs to focus maximum efforts in getting an engine

For your minuscule knowledge the below definition of synergy

syn·er·gy noun \ˈsi-nər-jē\
: the increased effectiveness that results when two or more people or businesses work together
synergy
ˈsɪnədʒi/Submit
noun
the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations (IN THIS CASE HAL/GTRE?DRDO/IAF) substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects

I quoted Capt Satish on the point of the extreme need for SYNERGISING !

I quoted Matty seperately regarding ToT

We are not recognizing the fact that we are not getting value for the money that we spend. We are not getting control over technology. We have no control over critical technology. We are so import-dependent; we better recognize that fact and then change our policies accordingly. And that's the major problem with our entire process. – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran


So learn to take the quotes in proper sequence in which they are made separately for highlighting two different arguements!

Another thing you as always are talking on a tangent : stuck on ToT of Su 30 MKI whereas we are discussing ToT in its entire spectrum including future ToT which is what the Retd AM Matty and I m discussing... after all this is the thread for future Rafale acquisition !!

I think there should be a comprehension test along with IQ test before one gets into DFI....err why not have a go at the IQ test together

 

[lcafanboy]

MOSCOW, September 8 (RIA Novosti) - India may acquire 126 Eurofighter Typhoon combat aircraft from Germany, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reported Monday.

Indian and German officials are once again negotiating a multibillion-dollar deal for the delivery of 126 German-made fighter jets to India, the agency reported, citing German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

India and Germany previously discussed a similar deal, but India decided against the Eurofighter jets in 2012 and chose to acquire French-produced Dassault Rafale combat aircraft instead. However, an agreement has not been reached so far.

The value of the possible contract is estimated at 7.6 billion euro (about $9.8 billion), according to the agency. Eurofighters are produced by the Bavaria-based Eurofighter GmbH company.

Steinmeier is currently in India, where he has been in talks with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj. The topics under discussion were trade, investment, high tech cooperation and renewable energy collaboration, according to the Indian Ministry of External Affairs.



AB AYEGA KHEL MAIN MAJA.

 

[power_monger]

2000 T-90s ordered versus 200 Arjuns ordered. You tell me.

The Arjun brigade has been getting new members it seems.

Do you understand when a product is actually called dead?When its not required any more. That was never the case with Arjun mk2. Arjun Mk2 will definatly see more orders once induction is over,final phase of trials are ongoing. It will be late,but neverthless still alive.

As far as name calling,you can carry on. endless arguments to change others belief is definitely not my cup of tea.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Do you understand when a product is actually called dead?When its not required any more. That was never the case with Arjun mk2. Arjun Mk2 will definatly see more orders once induction is over,final phase of trials are ongoing. It will be late,but neverthless still alive.

As far as name calling,you can carry on. endless arguments to change others belief is definitely not my cup of tea.

The below inductions of Leclerc is indicative of progressive induction which is what Arjun will also go through

Description Leclerc Série 1 Leclerc Série 2 Leclerc Série XXI Tropicalized Leclerc
Produced 132 178 96 388
Date 1992-1996 1997-2003 2003-2008 1994-early 2000s
Batch T1 to T5 T6 to T9 T10 to T11

For your information progressive induction happens over batches when necessary amendments have been made and end user requirements met.

I have already advised p2prada to go through the thread on Arjun MBT and see what even Brig Ray has to say. I guess he refuses to believe anyone/anything who says anything in favour of indigenous products!!

Move on to the current status : Mk 2 thrashed T90 in comparison trials!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Err Since we are supposed to get ToT from French, here's a link for you guys to consider :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/general-multimedia/63345-humour-uniform.html

French technology at its best!! Thank God Arjun has nt done anything of that sort and nor has Tejas!!

 

[sgarg]

I have predicted on Bharat-rakshak forum long back that Rafale will not happen for India. The problem is French are not keen on tech-transfer.

Eurofighter happens or not is another issue. Most likely not as God knows how many have received packets to approve Rafale.

MMRCA is dead. India should focus on local programs but stonewalling and people working at cross-purposes may mean that will also not happen.

India is lucky though as Su-30 program is delivering 15# a year and soon LCA program will deliver 8# (may be ramp up to 16#) a year. An acquisition rate of 30 multi-role fighters a year will see India through. India can always order more Su-30 later.

 

[p2prada]

Capt Satish IN says : I think as a nation HAL, air force, ADA, GTRE – everybody combined – needs to focus maximum efforts in getting an engine

For your minuscule knowledge the below definition of synergy

syn·er·gy noun \ˈsi-nər-jē\
: the increased effectiveness that results when two or more people or businesses work together
synergy
ˈsɪnədʒi/Submit
noun
the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations (IN THIS CASE HAL/GTRE?DRDO/IAF) substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects

He is being very diplomatic. It doesn't mean that every time somebody says something you need to sit with a dictionary open. All I see is you used a dictionary to prove you don't know what he is talking about.

Nothing what he said has anything to do with ToT.

Another thing you as always are talking on a tangent : stuck on ToT of Su 30 MKI whereas we are discussing ToT in its entire spectrum including future ToT which is what the Retd AM Matty and I m discussing... after all this is the thread for future Rafale acquisition !!

ToT is the same wherever you go. All ToT does is takes care of immediate problems, it doesn't solve other problems. Rafale ToT will not be used in LCA or AMCA.

If your older brother does your homework, that doesn't mean you will pass your exam without studying. If everybody passed exams by throwing money at the question paper, then you can only imagine where the country will be. This is what you are suggesting.

Our scientists are barely able to absorb technology that was developed in the '80s and here you want them to go conquer the world. Give it another 20 or 30 years.

Your lack of understanding of ToT coupled to the fact that you don't understand what those quotes mean show that you don't know what you are talking about. It is a very common phenomenon among the Arjun brigade that I have come to live with.

I think there should be a comprehension test along with IQ test before one gets into DFI....err why not have a go at the IQ test together

Why do you want me there? You want to copy and pass do you?

 

[Apollyon]

I have predicted on Bharat-rakshak forum long back that Rafale will not happen for India. The problem is French are not keen on tech-transfer.

Dassault's Rafale Tech Transfer Offer Compliant: Indian MoD

 

[sgarg]

Yes, the packets can change a lot of statements. However Rafale has not happened so far and this says something is amiss.

This is my prediction that it will not happen. We shall see.

If everything was alright with Rafale, the deal would have gone through during previous regime itself.

 

[p2prada]

Do you understand when a product is actually called dead?When its not required any more. That was never the case with Arjun mk2.

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. Arjun is no longer required.

DRDO is just keeping their experience relevant with Arjun Mk2 while they begin development of the FMBT. You can it's like how the Russians made the Su-35 as a stop gap and for exports while they developed the PAKFA in parallel. To support that the IA is buying 118 more for 3 regiments. A total of 6 Arjun regiments for the holding corps in Rajasthan.

Arjun Mk2 will definatly see more orders once induction is over,final phase of trials are ongoing. It will be late,but neverthless still alive.

Wishful thinking. 2000 T-90s have been decided. The rest will consist of 1500 T-72s upgraded. The last will have 200+ Arjuns. All for a grand total of 3800 tanks which is the govt sanctioned battle tank strength for the army.

Arjun is 15 years too late. Now it is time for FMBT which is to replace the 1500+ T-72s by the end of the next decade.

All of the criticisms come only from the media. DRDO themselves have given approval for T-90, so it is not a problem for them. At first the media said they should buy the Arjun instead of the T-90 irrespective of the fact that the Arjun wasn't really ready until 2008-10. After it was confirmed that the T-90s are going to be inducted no matter who says what, they directed their fire against upgrading T-72s. Now, it is confirmed that the army will upgrade 1500 out of 2500 T-72s to modern standards. So, there is no ammo left to attack the army anymore. The 1500 T-72s will be good for another 15 years, so by 2025-30 we should start inducting the FMBT.

Arjun is no longer needed, hence a dead end project. Next up is FMBT, and as long as they don't mess up this project things should go well. Or else by 2030, the army will induct new versions of the Armata while upgrading T-90s.

As far as name calling,you can carry on. endless arguments to change others belief is definitely not my cup of tea.

That's why the Arjun brigade is going into my ignore list. There are two types of people who join the forum among the young members. One, ignorant. Two, ignorant and naive. Only the second crop of members make up the Arjun brigade. They are unable to live with facts.

 

[sgarg]

Aren't we talking about Arjun in the wrong thread.

 

[sgarg]

On the subject of TOT of Rafale, I want to make a few observations:

1. India has very little integration with France's aviation industry. The same is happening in submarine project where the project has suffered massive delays. The Su-30 TOT took much longer despite HAL's massive experience churning out Russian aircraft. Rafale will be 10x harder.

2. The current financial situation in France makes Rafale technology more valuable (not less) to France as it is top-of-the-line technology. If the technology is pilfered, it may cause setback to French industry. Also France will do everything to protect its high-tech jobs. So the expected fallout that the plane comes with tech which helps Indian programs is not feasible.

3. If the NATO mandates higher equipment acquisitions in Europe, France may not be in a position to service the Indian contract.

There are many ifs with Rafale.

 

[p2prada]

On the subject of TOT of Rafale, I want to make a few observations:

1. India has very little integration with France's aviation industry. The same is happening in submarine project where the project has suffered massive delays. The Su-30 TOT took much longer despite HAL's massive experience churning out Russian aircraft. Rafale will be 10x harder.

HAL made a larger jump before manufacturing the MKI.

3. If the NATO mandates higher equipment acquisitions in Europe, France may not be in a position to service the Indian contract.

Why?

 

[ersakthivel]

You are either too dumb to realize or being deliberately stupid.

How is any of this concerned with ToT?

He isn't talking about any kind of synergizing anyway. He is just saying we need to get engine technology ASAP, by hook or crook, by paying for it or stealing it. He is saying all that DRDO and HAL have done is fart and fart, and now it's time to change.



Read that first statement again, in red. He said all ToT has been transferred, just that HAL couldn't absorb it. Is it the Russian's fault that the dumb Indian scientists couldn't absorb technology?

However it is old news. HAL has absorbed all technologies and the MKIs made are made indigenously. His opinions come from when he was still in the IAF. Indigenization was achieved in 2010. Apparently later than originally planned, but it was done.



Both the quotes are consistent with what I believe in too. Just that you don't know anything to realize it.

I sincerely believe DFI should have an IQ test before membership.
@Singh

As per your post it seems matsy is the dumbest of all who couldn't even know ,"that the dumb indian scientists at HAL who could not absorb tech during his service years have absorbed the SCB tech now after years of intense coaching by the russians "!!!!

so it is good if IAF conducts an IQ test before accepting such dumb people into its rank, who could not make the effort to know what is the current situation about crucial projects like su-30 MKI engine , but has the gall to shoot their mouth and dump tons of shit on indian defence efforts!!!!

In the same way most of the comments matsy made about tejas also belongs to his grand father's service years in IAF , it has nothing to do with current reality .

That description fits to most of the IAF worthies farting oin tejas in the "so called vayu stratpost brainstroming".

I suspect the truth about SU-30 MI SCB tech is little different.

Russians still haven't honored their word in transferring tech for deep maintenance and overhaul facility here. And they did the same with SCB tech, delaying it citing some nonsense.
""

 

[ersakthivel]

On the subject of TOT of Rafale, I want to make a few observations:

1. India has very little integration with France's aviation industry. The same is happening in submarine project where the project has suffered massive delays. The Su-30 TOT took much longer despite HAL's massive experience churning out Russian aircraft. Rafale will be 10x harder.

2. The current financial situation in France makes Rafale technology more valuable (not less) to France as it is top-of-the-line technology. If the technology is pilfered, it may cause setback to French industry. Also France will do everything to protect its high-tech jobs. So the expected fallout that the plane comes with tech which helps Indian programs is not feasible.

3. If the NATO mandates higher equipment acquisitions in Europe, France may not be in a position to service the Indian contract.

There are many ifs with Rafale.

If the french offer all crucial tech to us in rafale most of it will seep into tejas mk2 and tejas mk2(not to talk about Aura, AMCA) will be competing with rafale like gripen is doing now in all export tenders!!!

If the french holds us by contract specifying that tech transferred for rafale should not be used for tejas mk2, Aura and AMCA, then that tech transfer is useless to us!!!

So do you think it is even fair on our part to expect french to shoot their own foot?

We are all not that dumb dumb enough to believe the bogus claim made by IAF worthies in Vayu stratpost conference,

who claimed that the main aim of the MMRCA tender was getting cutting edge rafale tech to india to benefit AMCA, Tejas mk2 program.

 

[ersakthivel]

Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. Arjun is no longer required.

DRDO is just keeping their experience relevant with Arjun Mk2 while they begin development of the FMBT. You can it's like how the Russians made the Su-35 as a stop gap and for exports while they developed the PAKFA in parallel. To support that the IA is buying 118 more for 3 regiments. A total of 6 Arjun regiments for the holding corps in Rajasthan.



Wishful thinking. 2000 T-90s have been decided. The rest will consist of 1500 T-72s upgraded. The last will have 200+ Arjuns. All for a grand total of 3800 tanks which is the govt sanctioned battle tank strength for the army.

Arjun is 15 years too late. Now it is time for FMBT which is to replace the 1500+ T-72s by the end of the next decade.

All of the criticisms come only from the media. DRDO themselves have given approval for T-90, so it is not a problem for them. At first the media said they should buy the Arjun instead of the T-90 irrespective of the fact that the Arjun wasn't really ready until 2008-10. After it was confirmed that the T-90s are going to be inducted no matter who says what, they directed their fire against upgrading T-72s. Now, it is confirmed that the army will upgrade 1500 out of 2500 T-72s to modern standards. So, there is no ammo left to attack the army anymore. The 1500 T-72s will be good for another 15 years, so by 2025-30 we should start inducting the FMBT.

Arjun is no longer needed, hence a dead end project. Next up is FMBT, and as long as they don't mess up this project things should go well. Or else by 2030, the army will induct new versions of the Armata while upgrading T-90s.



That's why the Arjun brigade is going into my ignore list. There are two types of people who join the forum among the young members. One, ignorant. Two, ignorant and naive. Only the second crop of members make up the Arjun brigade. They are unable to live with facts.

In the same way there are two types of older posters here.

Rip Van Winkle types, who sing like a canary in symphony with Matsy's new IAF anthem,"Tejas is below Mig-21 Bison level, SO scrap it". And others taking a more rational view based on facts.

But , I enjoy their amusing song, And I wont add them to my ignore list, as it will spoil all the fun of coming here.

Bingo!!!!!!

Arjun is not required.

What is required now is umpteen dollar guzzling T-72 upgrades and , crew fainting in desert heat T-90 whose electronics jam in desert heat without AC.

SO we should immediately close the Arjun line and go with begging bowl through out the world looking for AC fitments to T-90 to make it work in the desert(which was rejected as not feasible by all the MNCs, whgo never showed any interest in this T-90 AC job, so now it is being thrust on who else, DRDO head!!!!)!!!!

But Modi govt is the dumbest in the world!!!! They are giving 118 fresh orders to Arjun mk2!!!!, We all know Modi is a fast guy. SO why he didnot ask for immediate closure of Arjun line and wasting public money on it?

http://idrw.org/?p=42912

But then why the above article in THE WEEK says that,"new 118 Arjun mk2 orders which were kept pending for years and promptly issued by Modi government bringing smiles to the scientist face".

Ohhhh!!!! THE WEEK guy is ignorant perhaps , He did not have the intelligence to know that it was a token order to " just to keep the knowledge intact from a dead project"!!!!!

But a few guys here who sit in cabinet meetings to seems to know that it was a "token order" to keep the knowledge intact from a dead project!!!!

It is good to have such knowledgeable posters among ourselves to know what is a dead product and what is a good product!!!