Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

Yet you are confident that when it comes to Rafael HAL will somehow manage the TOT part ? If not then why paying extra for the same?

Yes, they can manage the Rafale ToT. HAL should be able to absorb most of the ToT in 3 or 4 years and implement that in another 2 years. At least around 60 aircraft could end up being made completely in India.

Anyway, Matheswaran's comments were mostly related to the time of his service, not later.

After every one or two posts you keep harping about the absence of knowledge in the common members in this forum regarding ToT. So rather than indulging in endless frivolous and immature personal attack and counter attack why don't you write an article explaining the ideas behind the concept of TOT in a formal way along with credible links. I think it will be nice to read.

I have no issues with explaining things to ignorant members and I have zero issues in repeating the same thing over and over again. I have done this many times in the past. Whenever someone has asked me a question I have always answered to the best of my ability. And there are plenty of members who have followed my posts who can attest to that fact.

I have explained the concept of ToT multiple times. It is not my problem that other members don't bother reading. The explanation is long and I can go on and on with hundreds of words in a single post. I can't keep doing that over and over again.

Look at the number of posts I have, then look at the number of posts you have. Is it my fault if someone hasn't read all my posts or even my most recent posts? If you go to any major forum in the internet, the first rule of the day is for everybody to read the thread from page 1, else they simply ignore you. Have you read all the relevant threads from page 1? If you did not, regardless of whatever reason you want to give, then you are still going to blame me for other people's deficiencies, are you? Is it my fault they are too stupid to click on page 1 and then read?

There are multiple threads on this forum relating to aircraft, there is at least one post in each thread where I have explained about ToT. It will probably be found easily in the Su-30 thread because of inactivity. If he had done that from the start, he would have been all the most better for it while I wouldn't have had to deal with this level of nonsense.

I always give people a chance, I gave that to ersakthivel too, spent around 300 posts just explaining things he never knew about. He made one ludicrous claim after the other. He even said the LCA's 1985 ASR says the LCA is supposed to have a payload of 2 tonnes. I told him I will talk to him again once he has found a source that says that and put him on the ignore list, something that I had never done to anybody else. Basically, it meant never. Obviously, it must have taken him a year or two to understand what I meant. After hundreds of posts, including about payload, he still ends up saying IAF wanted 2 tonnes payload for LCA. What do you want me to do after that? He probably still says the LCA will turn circles around the F-22, like he had before. I don't even know what level of crap he has been feeding everybody since then. It's been two years. I thought he would have improved, but it did not happen. He is as naive and ignorant as he first came here.

I have no issues with people being ignorant. That can be taken care of. But when people are completely naive, I can't help it. After all, there is no cure for stupidity. And all members of Arjun brigade fit this description.

Writing articles is time consuming, I don't want to get into it. I only make informal posts. I have only written one article to date, related to MRCA. This post probably took me 10 minutes, an article explaining ToT could probably take days.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Since I have said I rest my case with regards to certain posters here who have the honour to inaugurate my Ignore List. I expect the said poster to not indulge in any further references to me and honour the Ignore option to their fullest..... I have nothing to say to people who refuse to understand my point of view and hanker on inanities instead of the larger question such as:

A) The need for Synergising efforts of all parties including HAL/DRDO/IAF if we are to move forward on Kaveri and Tejas
B) Has ToT benefited us and justified the huge amount of money we spent.... is there any upshot out of all the ToT's we have taken or is it just a license for screwdrivergiri!!
C) Have we got any CONTROL over any critical tech out of the ToT's till date and shown domestic improvement vis a vis domestic technology gain?

For both the points I have posted quotes of knowledgeable and exservices officers like Capt Satish of IN & ACM Matty of IAF. And I will be grateful to not continue discussing this matter with the said poster.

I cant help it if people cannot understand what those quotes by Ex Services officers imply or what my views imply so I request the said poster to desist and propose a mutual Ignore which I had already done but am forced to write out this post since I get mentioned as a third person by the said poster.

I suppose I am clear when I say that I am going to Ignore the said poster and expect him to do so too ! Many thank in advance !

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes, they can manage the Rafale ToT. HAL should be able to absorb most of the ToT in 3 or 4 years and implement that in another 2 years. At least around 60 aircraft could end up being made completely in India.

Anyway, Matheswaran's comments were mostly related to the time of his service, not later.



I have no issues with explaining things to ignorant members and I have zero issues in repeating the same thing over and over again. I have done this many times in the past. Whenever someone has asked me a question I have always answered to the best of my ability. And there are plenty of members who have followed my posts who can attest to that fact.

I have explained the concept of ToT multiple times. It is not my problem that other members don't bother reading. The explanation is long and I can go on and on with hundreds of words in a single post. I can't keep doing that over and over again.

Look at the number of posts I have, then look at the number of posts you have. Is it my fault if someone hasn't read all my posts or even my most recent posts? If you go to any major forum in the internet, the first rule of the day is for everybody to read the thread from page 1, else they simply ignore you. Have you read all the relevant threads from page 1? If you did not, regardless of whatever reason you want to give, then you are still going to blame me for other people's deficiencies, are you? Is it my fault they are too stupid to click on page 1 and then read?

There are multiple threads on this forum relating to aircraft, there is at least one post in each thread where I have explained about ToT. It will probably be found easily in the Su-30 thread because of inactivity. If he had done that from the start, he would have been all the most better for it while I wouldn't have had to deal with this level of nonsense.

I always give people a chance, I gave that to ersakthivel too, spent around 300 posts just explaining things he never knew about. He made one ludicrous claim after the other. He even said the LCA's 1985 ASR says the LCA is supposed to have a payload of 2 tonnes.
I told him I will talk to him again once he has found a source that says that and put him on the ignore list, something that I had never done to anybody else. Basically, it meant never. Obviously, it must have taken him a year or two to understand what I meant. After hundreds of posts, including about payload, he still ends up saying IAF wanted 2 tonnes payload for LCA

When that post was made I did not know much about the 1984 ASR given by IAF. Then I posted MSD Woolen's link and explained hundred times that even the present tejas mk1 has exceeded it in many parameters even after gaining an extra ton weight to cater to IAF demand of heavier weight higher launch stress inducing air to air missiles with authentic links to the FSED phase 2 program which was specifically started to redesign the wing to carry those heavier missiles.

. What do you want me to do after that? He probably still says the LCA will turn circles around the F-22, like he had before. I don't even know what level of crap he has been feeding everybody since then. It's been two years. I thought he would have improved, but it did not happen. He is as naive and ignorant as he first came here.

I am washin away the tons of crap you posted on Tejas, including your spurious claim that a pair of tejas can take a squadron of Tejas!!!!

I have no issues with people being ignorant. That can be taken care of. But when people are completely naive, I can't help it. After all, there is no cure for stupidity. And all members of Arjun brigade fit this description.

But I have issues with people who try to fool other guys with non existent knowledge , SO I end up countering them

Writing articles is time consuming, I don't want to get into it. I only make informal posts. I have only written one article to date, related to MRCA. This post probably took me 10 minutes, an article explaining ToT could probably take days

Making some BS post is easy and you can always escape by saying that "I am being quoted out of contest. ". But writing articles is something only wise guys can do

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Have the decency to use mention option when you are spewing bile on them.

 

[Immanuel]

Fun the whole thread if full of ignore lists, hence I'll use this opportunity to say, buying Rafale today is still ok, as long as the price is right and the order numbers are around 200 (sure higher cost but atleast the force would bring good capability + numerical advantage) but to drag this one for another year or more only makes this purchase more and more irrelevant since we are only further delaying the moment it arrives and and its eventual local manufacture, absorption of technology, cost increases and failure of proper TOT delivery by the French and yada yada yada...

That said the more we have delays, the better it is for us to scrap this MRCA thing and just sign-up with the JSF program since in terms of the next 10 -30 years, it will one of the large fleets of 5th gen fighters, sure there will be others, FGFA/AMCA eventually will probably outperform it in some ways i.e terms of top speeds, super cruise etc, but it will be hard to macth the F-35 in terms of avionics such as DAS/AESA (at least in the next 10 years), they only continue to evolve and have tremondous standoff range advantages. We can easily negotiate to have a local assembly line and can have even have some TOT to support daily ops/ regular spares and standard maintenance.
AESAs/DAS and other such avionics have very long lives and MTBFs and don't need much heavy maintenance, if we get some TOT on engines would be nice. We could easily work it out with LM to have some integration of local systems i.e weapons such as the Israelis. We can negotiate over the next 2 years and sign-up for 250 of these in various types 170 F-35A for IAF, 40 F-35B for Amphibious Ops and 40 F-35C for INS Vishal.

The timeline would be nice too, we should only ask for post FOC deliveries and by then the bird is proven i.e its current bugs/issues sorted out and deliveries can begin 2020 starting with IAF. In the mean-time we can easily order another 40-50 Super MKI (with Nirbhay/brahmos capability) to offset any shortages, even with current Rafale deal there is no way we will have 40 rafale before end of decade (if deal signed 1st of Jan 2015, first bird will arive in 36 months i.e 2018 or 2017 if the French really push and then we'd have the first 18 within 54 months of signing the contract 2018-2019). The Rafale currently brings no significant added advantages that the Super MKI would already offer. If we sign up for the F-35 circa 2017, we could have a 5th gen bird and an entire squadron of 16-18 in a year i.e 2020/2021 and the second squadron 2021/2022 while set-up a local assebly line , the costs will similar be to the Rafale over a life time and by being part of the Asia/middle East JSF supply chain, our private companies will gain far more than signing up for the Rafale ever can. Knowing Dassault's track record, if any one can be relied upon to muck up a deal its them, they have expertise in not selling a great aircraft.

 

[Zebra]

Since I have said I rest my case with regards to certain posters here who have the honour to inaugurate my Ignore List. I expect the said poster to not indulge in any further references to me and honour the Ignore option to their fullest..... I have nothing to say to people who refuse to understand my point of view and hanker on inanities instead of the larger question such as:

A) The need for Synergising efforts of all parties including HAL/DRDO/IAF if we are to move forward on Kaveri and Tejas
B) Has ToT benefited us and justified the huge amount of money we spent.... is there any upshot out of all the ToT's we have taken or is it just a license for screwdrivergiri!!
C) Have we got any CONTROL over any critical tech out of the ToT's till date and shown domestic improvement vis a vis domestic technology gain?

For both the points I have posted quotes of knowledgeable and exservices officers like Capt Satish of IN & ACM Matty of IAF. And I will be grateful to not continue discussing this matter with the said poster.

I cant help it if people cannot understand what those quotes by Ex Services officers imply or what my views imply so I request the said poster to desist and propose a mutual Ignore which I had already done but am forced to write out this post since I get mentioned as a third person by the said poster.

I suppose I am clear when I say that I am going to Ignore the said poster and expect him to do so too ! Many thank in advance !

I think ToT argument helped center to left and like minded people to keep US and few other countries away from getting Indian defence business. They used it as a tool, famous argument that they are not supplying ToT so we are not buying from them.

On the other hand it helped these people to pay more to their favorite suppliers in the name of 'cost of ToT'. And those 'favorite suppliers' knows very well how to remain favorite for ever.

All these at the cost of Indian tax payers money, of course.

 

[Punya Pratap]

I think ToT argument helped center to left and like minded people to keep US and few other countries away from getting Indian defence business. They used it as a tool, famous argument that they are not supplying ToT so we are not buying from them.

On the other hand it helped these people to pay more to their favorite suppliers in the name of 'cost of ToT'. And those 'favorite suppliers' knows very well how to remain favorite for ever.

All these at the cost of Indian tax payers money, of course.

Casper we are the worlds largest FMCG & Defense Market and the western nation dont want to change the status quo....after all no body wants to kill the geese that lays the golden egg!!

My central argument is when you pay for ToT you ought to A) Get your hands on Critical Tech & B) Be able to show a domestic tech growth and utilisation.

I have no qualms if we pay money but I certainly have huge issues if we dont learn something out of it beyond license production and please note learning to make non critical LRU's is still considered "Status Quo" as far technological gains are considered. We have been reproducing defense equipment under ToT for the past 60 years and such is the state of affairs that even after 60 plus years of "Licensed Screwdrivergiri" we cannot make something as basic as BTA.

This is the precise reason why GoI has even told US that its time to talk about "CO PRODUCTION & CO DEVELOPMENT" since you are still stuck with the BUYERS Image if you produce foreign equipment with ToT. ToT is like an umbilical chord which you can never sever till the time the Aircraft / Arms are in service.... be it upgrades or maintenance and keep paying money and more money !

As for prefered suppliers you must be aware of the entire drama about IAF favouring Pilatus but did you know that it did not meet the ASQR at all and they diluted 12 benchmarks including shockingly the one for ejection seat and there by jeopardising the pilots life. We have already seen what has happened with the AW 101 where Ex IAF boss Tyagi is facing music for diluting JUST ONE BENCHMARK!!
Sure the desi trainer and IJT are both in limbo but diluting ASQR to favour foreign arms deal stinks of step motherly treatment..... If there is a problem in designing/making something than employ all the skills and brains at your disposal!

I have posted in Tejas thread about HAL chief's proposal for an Indian Aeronautical Commission... please go through it and the links coz its an interesting read indicative of changing times

Everyone raised a hue and cry when IAF had to make allowances for Tejas and grant concessions through phased IOC 1 & IOC 2 and everyone is up in arms if Tejas does nt meet one single benchmark laid out in ASQR. Incidentally there were two documents one in 1985 & the second in 2004!

The one basic flaw in all the imports through favoured suppliers is that our services demand the best from domestic arms but have no hesitation in diluting benchmarks and giving all the leeway to foreign arms company! Even the almighty US of A is under the influence of the Arms Lobby so rest assured its not easy to break out of their influence and will take a while with a strong Govt in place.

 

[p2prada]

That said the more we have delays, the better it is for us to scrap this MRCA thing and just sign-up with the JSF program

You were selling the Super Hornet during the MRCA competition, weren't you?

 

[Immanuel]

You were selling the Super Hornet during the MRCA competition, weren't you?

In the context of the MRCA, I still believe Super Hornet International was/is ideal, not too pricey, resonable costs over a life time, combat proven off the shelf cutting edge technology & reliability, ease of operations, plenty of weapons choices. It is a workhorse for the USN and plays many roles including mini awacs and tanking. It offers commonality with LCA mk-2 in terms of engines (savings will be easily a couple of billion or more over a life time simply due to this). EPE engines offer more range, better aerial performance.

However, timing is everything, SH International though a great bird, it still a 4.5+ gen quite like the Rafale, F-35 offers 5th gen avionics, better VLO stealth with hardly a major delay considering the timelines. It is bound to be a major workhorse for the USAF/USN/USMC for the next 30 years and its a better bird to have than the Rafale.

 

[p2prada]

However, timing is everything, SH International though a great bird, it still a 4.5+ gen quite like the Rafale, F-35 offers 5th gen avionics, better VLO stealth with hardly a major delay considering the timelines. It is bound to be a major workhorse for the USAF/USN/USMC for the next 30 years and its a better bird to have than the Rafale.

SH is significantly inferior to the Rafale. Rafale is infact much closer to the F-35 than the SH or any other MRCA contender.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Here is DRDO Chief - Hindustan Times article


India needs to close gaps with China: DRDO chief
Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times New Delhi, September 10, 2014
First Published: 19:55 IST(10/9/2014) | Last Updated: 19:59 IST(10/9/2014)

The country's top military scientist has said India's infrastructure deficit in the defence sector is coming in the way of indigenisation, at a time China is investing billions in building capacities.

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief Avinash Chander said India needed to take immediate steps to close the technology gap with China and to sharpen the country's military edge in the long run.

"China has invested heavily in infrastructure and R&D. It outspends India's R&D expenditure (more than Rs. 15,200 crore) by almost 15 times. There is a huge gap," he told HT.

India has only one missile testing range, compared to China's seven. It also lags behind when it comes to facilities and platforms for testing top-end hardware. It has a solitary wind tunnel facility to test aircraft and engine components.

Chander said, "We need at least three wind tunnels. We also need a fighter plane such as the MiG-29 as a flying test best. Availability of test platforms is a serious problem." He said the evaluation of advanced light towed array sonars (ALTAS) — for detecting and tracking enemy submarines — was stuck for want of a test ship.

He acknowledged China had moved up the value chain in high-tech defence hardware — it has tested an anti-satellite weapon, is working on a stealth fighter project and is ready to deploy an advanced submarine-launched ballistic missile.

The DRDO chief said India should look at the Chinese model of creating its own military-industrial complex to boost indigenisation. "More than 4 lakh people work in the Chinese aerospace sector, compared to less than 40,000 in India," he said.

He said India should have a "composite policy" to link big-ticket imports to inflow of cutting-edge technology. "China pursues such a policy vigourously. If Beijing were to import 126 fighters (referring to India's almost-done fighter deal), it would have ensured that engines were produced in China."

One of the top priorities for the NDA government is to speed up indigenisation and transform the country from the world's biggest arms importer into an export powerhouse

I find the comments regarding the Rafale engine very interesting... or maybe DRDO chief himself does nt know about the ToT !!

 

[Santu]

Dassault Rafale « Defense Issues

Interesting article about rafale capabilities.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

SH is significantly inferior to the Rafale. Rafale is infact much closer to the F-35 than the SH or any other MRCA contender.

Typhoon has a quarter of Rafale's RCS, So isnt it more closer to F35 ??

 

[p2prada]

Typhoon has a quarter of Rafale's RCS, So isnt it more closer to F35 ??

There have been lots of claims and counter claims about Rafale's and Typhoon's RCS figures. But in a comparison with the F-35, neither of the two Eurocanards can compare.

IMO Rafale has the smaller RCS than Typhoon because it has some low observable features like the presence of saw-tooth edges on the airframe. But I don't really care about the RCS difference between the two.

 

[Shirman]

^^^^^^^^@p2prada whats the possibility of Super hornet coming via FMS (if every thing fails in the end).....Your view as of now that we are ordering at least more defence equipment and the new Aus-Jap-India-U.S. equation are we ready to trust them the U.S. (as compared to before)?????......What i think is Modi and co are actually waiting for Rupee to strengthen to certain figure before signing the Rafale deal.......IMHO Rupee will not strengthen unless Modi govt initiate much need radical (big bang /batting powerplay what ever you call ) economic reforms and that will not happen before announcement of next year's budget FY-2015...Now they are concentrating on remaining By poll and state elections In Mah, Haryana, Delhi, U.P., Jharkhand and J&k what ever people are seeing as recent economic activity in India under Modi rule is by and large the work of an efficient bureaucracy and to large extent fear of Modi in Babu Kingdom in Delhi......... But still according to my calculations India needs atleast to maintain 7.5 % GDP growth which will not take place before FY 2016 (according to Moodys and Goldman Sach, Moodys expect India to touch 6.5 to 7.0 % Growth in 2016-17) Rupee needs to be atleast in 56-57 against U.S. Dollar Forget Euro which we will be paying for Rafales to Dassault and i don't see that happening in near economic terms.......

 

[p2prada]

^^^^^^^^@p2prada whats the possibility of Super hornet coming via FMS (if every thing fails in the end)

There is no chance of this happening. SH is not even close to Rafale in any parameter and it failed IAF's requirements anyway since it wasn't shortlisted. It has lower endurance, lower payload, lower performance, inferior electronics. FMS will make it very expensive. And very little ToT. We are expecting at least 85% ToT for the Rafale, the US Congress won't approve that much.

.....Your view as of now that we are ordering at least more defence equipment and the new Aus-Jap-India-U.S. equation are we ready to trust them the U.S. (as compared to before)?????......

We can trust them in some areas and none in some others. It isn't a black and white story.

What i think is Modi and co are actually waiting for Rupee to strengthen to certain figure before signing the Rafale deal.......

The Rupee-Dollar/Euro exchange rate must have been fixed in 2012. It won't make a difference eventually. If Rupee strengthens at a later date then Indian companies will make more profits. If the Rupee weakens then the profits will be lesser.

 

[Zebra]

I found @Ray sir's post in 'Indian Army Artillery' forum section......

All equipment looks good in the glossies.

Their value is discovered in the User Trials and the Technical Trials.

And then starts the considerations of the Govt!

These considerations are important and can overrule the Trials!

Now a question in MRCA point of view.

Rafale's selection was also a "consideration"....!....?
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BTW, where is my signature!
I kept @Ray sir's this post there, as my signature.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

What about the EFT offer

it is spoiler for rafale

 

[Immanuel]

P2P smoking some serious stuff as always

 

[p2prada]

P2P smoking some serious stuff as always

The service chiefs, pilots and myself always smoke serious stuff, not kids stuff.

Rafale News: MMRCA, Admiral Arun Prakash analysis of Indian military procurements

Having flown both the F/A-18 and the Rafale, I can say that while the former would certainly have met all the IAF requirements competently and economically, the breathtaking performance of the latter leaves one in no doubt that it is a "generation-next" machine. The Eurofighter Typhoon, by all accounts, is equally impressive.

There is a reason why the SH did not make it to the shortlist while Rafale and Typhoon did.

And the SH was $25 Million cheaper than the Rafale.

 

[Prabalxxx]

I think india should go for tejas mkii instead of rafel.
It will be good for our defence.