Know Your 'Rafale'

Killzone

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Which 5th gen ready made platforms is available to us. We just can't keep waiting as technology continues to improve. Its like waiting for a technologically advanced phone. At this moment FGFA and AMCA both are in drawing board and we don't know a thing about there capabilities.
Yes I don't dispute that.But we should not defer to Rafale as the one and only solution for us.
There is more than one way to skin a goose.
We should look at other options available to us at the very least and use it to get the best deal for us.
I don't like the price of rafale compared to other fighters.
Since I am not privy to all the technical details of the contract regarding TOT, I can only hope the sky-high price is due us getting a lot of TOT rather than us getting ripped off yet again.




No we don't have superiority over PAF. That is a false belief. PAF/PA has to defend a small area. They just have 2 population core areas one near Karachi and other near Lahore and that is what they need to defend. Their ground based AD is very much concentrated. F-16s are very capable planes and JF-17 can hold on their own for some time.
On the other hand we have to defend a large area with population spread across the country. Our Air Defense has gaps and also we need to look out for PLAAF. Currently the situation is not against us but also not in our favor.
We manged to deter both PAF and PLAAF even when we had technologically inferior aircrafts to them.
Mig-29 was first Indian aircraft that was better than its PAF counterpart (F16)
With MKI inducted, the balance of power has definitively shifted in IAF's favour for now.
Are you denying all this ?

Regarding Lahore and Karachi, cold start doctrine needs us to establish air superiority on a strip of land about 40kms wide on Pak borders with 3-4 separate thrusts in Thar to separate Northern Pakistan from South.
In case of a war, our target will be Bahawalpur, not Lahore or Karachi
Its not in our doctrine to attack Pakistani cities.This doctrine was made considering the capabilities and advantages of MKI
Same way PAF is primed for defense of its air zone, its not oriented to offensive operations over India.
Anyways Rafale,if bought will not be used as interceptor so the point is moot anyways

With Rafale we do get significant amount of technological advantage. Don't compare MKI to Rafale!!! Rafale does enjoy edge over MKI. Don't even compare Tejas or MiG 29 with Rafale.
You are just repeating what I said.
Russian ambassador himself stated that India wanted Rafale/Eurofighter for MMRCA because we wanted technologies that Rafale being a small multi role fighter could bring and MKI being a large air dominance fighter could not give.

Cheers
 
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p2prada

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nah... The SH block 3 won't be of great additional cost considering the upgrades aren't drastic enough to change the price of the SH tremondously, the aircraft itself will cost around 65-70 million, keep in mind the production rate is much higher with Boeing churning out 42 fighters a year. Also the upgrades are being funded by USN, I doubt very much the life cycle cost of 200 SH inlcuding TOT required as of the RFP will cost more than 28 billion. The life cycle cost per fighter for the SH B3 will be much lower than the Rafale. Also engine commnality with LCA mk-2 will bring in much more savings
The SH Block 2 already costs $67 Million fly away to the USN. Add at least another $10 Million to that figure if you want to sell it to India.

If you bring in the cost of sensor fusion, internal IRST, AESA based EW suite, new gen AESA radar, new engines etc, as proposed in the International Roadmap, the total unit cost of Rafale and SH will be exactly the same.

The SH that was offered to Brazil came at $8 Billion for 36 units while Rafale came at $10 Billion, for 30 years. These were lifecycle costs. Gripen won it at $6 Billion.

If you assume IAF was offered the same, 126 Rafales would cost $35 Billion and 126 SHs would cost $27 Billion. But we know that this is way too much since we have a major price advantage as most of the jets will be made here at Indian labor prices.

Add the fact that we will be getting ToT for Rafale while we won't be that lucky with the US makes the French deal a winner, even if it costs a bit more. Then add the fact that Rafale has a future roadmap that extends at least beyond 2040 while SH is expected to be phased out by 2035 makes Rafale all the more relevant to the IAF. Beyond all that, Rafale exceeds the SH is practically every way as an aircraft, so the costs are justified for the significantly increased capability.

From an operational point of view, the configuration that IAF is getting Rafales in is being flight tested by the French in an operational environment "today." But the B3 SH configuration that we are expected to get, we will have to flight test it ourselves in an operational environment after it is made post 2017-18. This will bring significant delays in making our fleet war-ready, that's a few years gone.

From a business point of view, with Rafales, we will become a customer as valuable as the ALA/MN for Dassault and co, but with SH, we will be second rung to the USN. So, we will have more value and more political weight among the French than we will among the Americans. Future developments of Rafale would come in JVs and both countries will procure enough numbers to make it profitable over a longer period of time (roughly 300-400 Rafales between ALA/MN/IAF) versus just 126-200 SHs since USN will be phasing out their share of aircraft and make the Super Hornet MLU much more expensive in the long run.

From every angle, the Rafale purchase is much more fruitful than Super Hornet.
 

p2prada

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No we don't have superiority over PAF. That is a false belief. PAF/PA has to defend a small area.
We have a humongous superiority over PAF in terms of high class aircraft. It is not that they have a small area to defend, we have a small area to attack and can use our superior numbers to our advantage.

So, it is not a false belief.

Wikileaks showed that selling 18 F-16 B52s to PAF wouldn't make a difference against the IAF.



The current version of the MKI is in the same region as the F-16IN in terms of capability. The best PAF jet is the F-16C/D and their other F-16s are at the same level as the F-16MLU. JF -17 B2 should also be in the same region as the MLU. The future version of MKI could equalize or push it well above all the 4th gen jets in the image.

The difference is too much, both in terms of numbers and capability, for the PAF to match anytime this decade.

Rafale will simply increase that difference.
 
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laughingbuddha

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Looking at the propable timelines for induction of Rafale (if at all) and the development progress of FGFA I say we get few sqdns of Mig-29K/35 to tide over inventory deficit with retirement schedule of Mig-21/27 aircraft. The MiG-29Ks can be relocated to IAC-1 as and when required. Logistical, training and maintenance facilities already available for such aircraft.
 
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p2prada

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Looking at the propable timelines for induction of Rafale (if at all) and the development progress of FGFA I say we get few sqdns of Mig-29K/35 to tide over inventory deficit with retirement schedule of Mig-21/27 aircraft. The MiG-29Ks can be relocated to IAC-1 as and when required. Logistical, training and maintenance facilities already available for such aircraft.
FGFA has no relevance to the current MRCA contract. Both are needed. The first version of FGFA will eventually replace Mig-29UPG and Mirage-2000UPG and the second version may replace the oldest MKIs undergoing MLUs today. So, the plans are already set in stone. The gears of war cannot be turned back.

Mig-29K isn't good enough, it is at B52 level. Mig-35 is far from production and won't be war-ready for at least another decade after induction. Rafale can become war-ready in just 3 or 4 years, when our first squadron accumulates around 800-1000 hours each.

A few squadrons won't be enough anyway, we need to replace 300 jets within the next 3 years and Rafale will fulfill only half those numbers with LCA filling up the other half.

I don't think most of the people here get it, but in just 3 years we will have the lowest number of squadrons ever in our history since 1947, and our enemies will have more jets than we can manage to bring to the fight. Even if it is for a short time, the we will be at our weakest in three years than we have ever been. We are just very lucky that PAF is in a tricky situation today, but that's not the case with China. And PAF is far stronger than they were during Kargil war.
 

ersakthivel

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Key Flight Accomplishments of F-35 -

The program successfully demonstrated the variant's ability to launch AIM-120 missiles from its internal weapons bay and to refuel while in flight. The program also continued testing the aircraft's ability to function at high vertical flight angles, although program officials noted that the testing took longer than expected. As of December 2013, the program had accomplished 59 percent of its total expected flight science test points for this variant.

Helmet mounted display -

The program made adjustments to the helmet design, including adding sensors to lessen the display jitter, and redesigning elements to minimize latency. The program tested these design changes in 2013 and found that most of the technical deficiencies had been adequately addressed, and that the helmet's performance was sufficiently suitable to support Marine Corps initial operational capability in 2015.

Unit Fly Away Cost -

Current Unit Cost - $124.8 million
Target Unit Cost - $83.4 million (2019)

[The second figure is in 'Then Year' dollars. Therefore that equals about $75 million in 2014 dollars. However, from the report - ]


When the F-35 which is a stealth 5th gen fighter with so many new technologies costs way lower than the 4.5th gen non stealth RAAFLE,( to add insult to injury the RAFALE still has no integrated HMDS package as well.)how can MOD justify the costs?

In three years time we won't even be seeing a single RAFALE squadron in operation going by the monumental cost of the deal.

If IAF really wants to augumnet the fleet number it should have given a hundred plus order which would have led to higher capacity 30 per year production line for tejas mk-1 itself. which is the only realistic way to have a sustainable squadron numbers,

The IAF didn't means that it is not unduly worried about the depleting squadron strength.

It makes no sense to invest 20 billion dollar in 4.5th gen RAAFLE , when we can get 5th gen FGFA within five or six years ,if we use the same route used for SU-30 program of buying 40 0r 60 PAKFA off the shelf and exchanging them latter for FGFA.

That will mitigate the delay in FGFA production add squadron numbers and transform IAF capacities beyond RAFALE's capacity.

When the russian airforce is satisfied with PAKFA and are going to induct them from next year onwards why the IAF thinks it fit to buy a few off the shelf, surely the russians won't say no.

When IAf is ready to buy the non HMDS integrated RAFALE and add it here at our own cost,

also ready to integrate all russian weapon systems that they already have on RAFALE at our own cost,

why shouldn't they buy a few squadrons of PAKFA, which has all the above on board and stealth as well, straight away, if squadron numbers are so important?
 
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halloweene

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Old news, yesterday ones are much funnier...

Delivery of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be more than a year behind schedule due to ongoing software problems, according to a US government report. The delay marks the latest snag in the ongoing saga of the world's most expensive aircraft.

According to a new Government Accountability Office report, the F-35's mission management system software needs a vast debugging effort to meet the plane's various requirements.

"Challenges in development and testing of mission systems software continued through 2013, due largely to delays in software delivery, limited capability in the software when delivered, and the need to fix problems and retest multiple software versions," the GAO auditors wrote.

"The Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT&E) predicts delivery of warfighting capabilities could be delayed by as much as 13 months. Delays of this magnitude will likely limit the warfighting capabilities that are delivered to support the military services' initial operational capabilities—the first of which is scheduled for July 2015—and at this time it is not clear what those specific capabilities will be because testing is still ongoing."

The GAO said the plane needs eight million new lines of software code to overcome the current functionary glitches.

The report added that only 13 percent of the Block 2B segment of software had been tested as of last January. The target for this prime operational component of the plane was 27 percent.

Earlier this year, the Pentagon's chief weapons tester, Michael Gilmore, provided an in-depth report to Congress on the F-35's technical features, emphasizing what he calls the "unacceptable" characteristics of the aircraft's Block 2B software, according to a draft obtained by Reuters in January.

"Initial results with the new increment of Block 2B software indicate deficiencies still exist in fusion, radar, electronic warfare, navigation, electro-optical target system, distributed aperture system, helmet-mounted display system, and datalink," Gilmore's report said.

Due to the high number of technical problems, the 2B software overhaul would not be finished until November 2015 - 13 months later than originally planned, the report predicted. This scenario would delay release to the F-35 fleet until July 2016, a year after the Marine Corps anticipated having "initial operating capability" with its version of the joint strike fighter.

The all-in-one plane, designed for a host of potential missions, is to have similar versions for the US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps.

GAO auditors questioned whether the US government can still afford the F-35 program. Plans are for the purchase of 2,457 planes for the US military by 2037. Development and acquisition costs are estimated to be about $400 billion.

To remain on schedule for 2037, the Pentagon must "steeply" increase spending on the program over the next five years, the GAO said, to the tune of $12.6 billion per year for the next 23 years for only research and acquisition costs. Pentagon brass has called the $1 trillion estimated operation and maintenance costs "unaffordable," the GAO reported.

In response to the GAO findings, the F-35 program's head, Maj. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, said in a statement that "software continues to remain our number one technical risk on the program, and we have instituted disciplined systems engineering processes to address the complexity of writing, testing and integrating software."

The report, released Monday, detailed only the latest problems with what some have dubbed "the jet that ate the Pentagon," plagued with chronic cost overruns and delayed deliveries.

The Lockheed Martin fighter jet's price tag is estimated to end up costing US taxpayers more than $1 trillion, factoring in maintenance expenses. Though, the Pentagon said in August that the program's estimated cost was "slashed" to a trim $857 billion.

Critics of the plane's many functions say it's too loaded down to be any more capable than the older, less-expensive F-16 fighter jet, which the F-35 is to replace along with F/A-18s, and A-10s.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, which started in 2001, is 70 percent over initial cost estimates and years behind schedule. Despite its fantastic price tag, the F-35 has even failed to generate the number of jobs its proponents had originally promised to Congress.

In January, the Center for International Policy said Lockheed had "greatly exaggerated" its claim that the F-35 program will sustain 125,000 American jobs in 46 US states in an effort to win support for the program.

In addition to the US, Lockheed is making F-35 versions for Australia, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, and Turkey. Israel and Japan have placed orders for the fighter jet. South Korea ordered 40 joint strike fighters on Monday – the same day as the release of the GAO report.

Despite the myriad problems in the F-35's development, the first trans-Atlantic flight of an F-35 fighter jet is set for July, as the plane will take part in two international air shows near London, Reuters reported.
http://rt.com/usa/f35-jet-software-delay-233/

Full report here http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/661842.pdf

Enjoy!

When IAf is ready to buy the non HMDS integrated RAFALE and add it here at our own cost, why shouldn't they buy a few squadrons of PAKFA straight away, if squadron numbers are so important?
HMDS is integrated, french air force don't want it, different.
 

Immanuel

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Actually the F-35 current issues are expected, what they envision to achieve with its radar, DAS and other avionics is revolutionary, its obvious cutting edge tech like this needs fine tuning and maturation and it will cost. Once fully operational, when all bugs are ironed out by 2018 or so, the aircraft will have unparaelled abilities. 4.5 gen aircraft simply can't match.

APG-81 AESA Radar for the F-35 JSF - YouTube

F-35 Lightning II EOTS Video 9 - YouTube

F-35 JSF Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS) - YouTube

F-35 DAS and APG-81 radar for the JSF detect multiple rocket launches - YouTube
 

p2prada

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F-35 is irrelevant to the IAF. Rafales are plenty and it will be followed up with AMCA anyway. And it looks like IAF wants an air superiority fighter, so that will take more importance compared to F-35's ground strike design. The kind of avionics being developed for the F-35 already exists on Rafale and next gen avionics will come on FGFA, so the IAF is quite secure in most of these fronts.

It is more relevant to the IN when F-35 will be cleared for export to non-NATO related countries. We plan on getting a new carrier by 2025, so we may want 2 squadrons there and one or two squadrons on the ground. 2009 RFI said the contract will be for nearly 80 aircraft. IIRC, 36 + 36 options. I believe it is 40+40 now.

If SH doesn't get any new orders, the production line will close in 2016, so you can easily rule it out of the competition.

I am looking forward to the new N-MRCA tender to be released. It should happen sometime next year, probably end of 2015, since it is planned to be released after IAF's MRCA is signed. The contract itself should be faster than the IAF one. There will only be two contenders though, F-35 and Rafale. Nobody else has CATOBAR designs. May the cheapest aircraft win.
 

halloweene

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some news, not only worshare agreement done, but also industry agreement done. Only top contract to be finalized (very closed to), then up to indian politicians to act.
 

Immanuel

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The kind of avionics being developed for the F-35 already exists on Rafale and next gen avionics will come on FGFA, so the IAF is quite secure in most of these fronts.

I am looking forward to the new N-MRCA tender to be released. It should happen sometime next year, probably end of 2015, since it is planned to be released after IAF's MRCA is signed.
:rofl:

Where does the Rafale have the ability to detect & geo locate ground missile & rocket artillery launches from over 1200km away? Sure DAS has its problems currently for being too sensitive with higher than intended false alarm rate but tis the most sensitive system ever concieved for any airbone system, they'll iron out the problems in a couple of years. With both China and Pak deployed hundreds of missiles (both rocket artillery and short/medium range strike & cruise missiles) which other system can detect such attacks during the launch stage and help in early warning and ideally even provide almost immediate counter measures? Finding missiles launchers is one of the hardest thing to do, the F-35 provides the ability to find them in an instant, we can then deploy counter measures.

Actually when DAS is working as should, a few pairs of F-35s can literally monitor all Paki airspace & part of chinese theater for rocket/missile launches, also they can be used to monitor aircraft launches from enemy FOBs, main bases, most bases are well with-in range for clear live data of what the enemy is doing, they can monitor which aircraft are being deployed and possibly even which weapons are being carried so that MKIs, Mig-29 and other aircraft can be deployed to counter them.

I think even if IAF doesn't buy the F-35 in large numbers, they can certainly acquire about 40-60 F-35A for IAF aircraft just for such aeriel battlefield intel/monitoring, this will not only allow for some significant proactive actions to counter the enemy and stop their plans dead in their tracks, but also help in having an adaptive offensive air warfare strategy. Rafale/MKI/LCA can be the mainstay for IAF but the F-35 will only enhance all the other assets in our inventory

Also radar ranges just don't match, even in basic form apg-81 out performs the RBE2 AESA by 3 times in range, resolution & possibly has the most extensive threat library for any airborne radar. Heck even the Block 60's APG-80 outperforms the RBE2.

EOTS in its sharpness, form & function and has no equal yet. I think IAF/IN and IA will benefit from the F-35A/B/C, I think 60 for IAF, 80 for IN and 40 for IA would be an ideal number.

IN will also benefit more with F-35 while working closely with P-8Is, they can detect enemy vessels, destroyers, frigates hundreds of miles away and pick-up antiship & land attack missile launches.
 
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sayareakd

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If NM come to power then Reliance will be making Rafale, here is the hint of the same.

(Reuters) - The nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) would welcome more foreign direct investment in defence, if elected, but would delay opening up the country's market of more than 1.2 billion people to international retail chains like Wal-Mart
BJP to welcome foreign defence investment, keep out big retailers | Reuters

it is Ambani who is financing his poll and media campaign and the businessman he is, he is bound to replace HAL and we will get nothing..........:mad:
 

anoop_mig25

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anoop_mig25

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who is having gas and defence ?
Well u leave in delhi and are also more knowledgeable person as well as have more source of information then me .And you are asking me who has gas and defence then u are poking fun at me
 

sayareakd

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Well u leave in delhi and are also more knowledgeable person as well as have more source of information then me .And you are asking me who has gas and defence then u are poking fun at me
sorry not making fun, i do know the answer, just asking you.

Big Ambani in an interview said "I just change the rules of the game".
 

sayareakd

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About Reliance Aerospace Technologies Limited
Reliance Aerospace Technologies Limited was registered on 04 September, 2008. Reliance Aerospace Technologies Limited's Corporate Identification Number (CIN) is U35300MH2008PLC186471, Registeration Number is 186471.

Their registered address on file is 3rd Floor, Maker Chambers Iv,222 Nariman Point,, Mumbai - 400021, Maharashtra, India.

Reliance Aerospace Technologies Limited currently have 3 Active Directors / Partners: Ramesh Kumar Damani, Rajan Luthra, Darshan Purushottam Naphade, and there are no other Active Directors / Partners in the company except these 3 officials.

Reliance Aerospace Technologies Limited is currently in Active Status.

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Reliance Security Solutions Limited was registered on 04 August, 2008. Reliance Security Solutions Limited's Corporate Identification Number (CIN) is U51109MH2008PLC185401, Registeration Number is 185401.

Their registered address on file is 4th Floor, Court House,lokmanya Tilak Marg, Dhobi , Mumbai - 400002, Maharashtra, India.

Reliance Security Solutions Limited currently have 6 Active Directors / Partners: Rajan Luthra, Shanker Natarajan, Tarun Jamnadas Shah, Rajan Luthra, Shanker Natarajan, Tarun Jamnadas Shah, and there are no other Active Directors / Partners in the company except these 6 officials.

Reliance Security Solutions Limited is currently in Active Status.

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laughingbuddha

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Does it matter "who" is financing "who"? Will whoever comes to power be proactive and concerned about the defence preparedness of the country? I think that's a more important question. No more AK Anthonys please. And somebody Please do something about those babus in the defence ministry. Pack them off to Leh or Port Blair.
 

Yusuf

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With the UPA-2's tenure coming to an end, France had wanted India to sign a pact to provide government guarantee for completion of negotiation for 126 fighter aircraft with Dassault but defence minister AK Antony has refused to do so.



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France, whose company Dassault has been shortlisted for supplying the multi-role medium combat Rafale aircraft, had proposed the signing of the agreement apparently to ensure that negotiations for the multi-billion dollar deal do not get affected if a different party comes to power after the Lok Sabha elections. "The French side wanted government guarantee to the negotiations," sources said.

Antony, however, refused to sign such an agreement, arguing that governmental guarantee cannot be provided as negotiations were still underway, they said.

The defence ministry is still negotiating the price and terms and conditions of the contract with the French firm Dassault Aviation, whose Rafale combat aircraft was selected as the lowest bidder two years ago for supplying 126 warplanes.

Antony had recently ordered that the process to arrive at the lowest bidder in the multi-vendor tender be reviewed after completion of the whole procedure involved in the procurement as questions had been raised over it.

The two sides are trying to tackle the issue of life cycle costs (LCC) relating to Rafale. "There are complaints about the procedure of calculating the life cycle cost and that issue is not yet settled. Before bringing the deal to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final approval, we would like to get clear on that aspect," he had said.
 

p2prada

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:rofl:

Where does the Rafale have the ability to detect & geo locate ground missile & rocket artillery launches from over 1200km away? Sure DAS has its problems currently for being too sensitive with higher than intended false alarm rate but tis the most sensitive system ever concieved for any airbone system, they'll iron out the problems in a couple of years. With both China and Pak deployed hundreds of missiles (both rocket artillery and short/medium range strike & cruise missiles) which other system can detect such attacks during the launch stage and help in early warning and ideally even provide almost immediate counter measures? Finding missiles launchers is one of the hardest thing to do, the F-35 provides the ability to find them in an instant, we can then deploy counter measures.

Actually when DAS is working as should, a few pairs of F-35s can literally monitor all Paki airspace & part of chinese theater for rocket/missile launches, also they can be used to monitor aircraft launches from enemy FOBs, main bases, most bases are well with-in range for clear live data of what the enemy is doing, they can monitor which aircraft are being deployed and possibly even which weapons are being carried so that MKIs, Mig-29 and other aircraft can be deployed to counter them.

I think even if IAF doesn't buy the F-35 in large numbers, they can certainly acquire about 40-60 F-35A for IAF aircraft just for such aeriel battlefield intel/monitoring, this will not only allow for some significant proactive actions to counter the enemy and stop their plans dead in their tracks, but also help in having an adaptive offensive air warfare strategy. Rafale/MKI/LCA can be the mainstay for IAF but the F-35 will only enhance all the other assets in our inventory
Most of our missile threats come from SRBMs and MRBMs which both Rafale and F-35 should be able to handle. Small numbers are not enough. 40-60 is enough for the Navy, not the air force. We need a minimum of 6 squadrons for the purchase to make sense.

F-35 won't enhance anything in our inventory if avionics alone is considered, since both MKI and Rafale are expected to get similar or better systems. VLO is its strongest selling point, but with the FGFA coming up we won't need even that.

Also radar ranges just don't match, even in basic form apg-81 out performs the RBE2 AESA by 3 times in range, resolution & possibly has the most extensive threat library for any airborne radar. Heck even the Block 60's APG-80 outperforms the RBE2.
Radar range is not a significant criteria for MRCA. The requirements for radar were quite modest. And when it comes to specs, MKI/FGFA will far outrange Rafale/F-35 anyway, so it won't make a difference whether Rafale is better or F-35 is better with MKIs covering the skies above. And no, the difference won't be three times between RBE-2AA and APG-81. I doubt there may be more than a 50% difference, which by itself is significant.

And no, APG-80 is inferior to RBE-2AA.

EOTS in its sharpness, form & function and has no equal yet.
This is not a selling point. By the time F-35 can be purchased by India, Rafale MLUs will be available. So it won't make any real difference. Rafale's avionics may end up being better after the MLU.
 

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