Know Your 'Rafale'

[p2prada]

@halloweene

Virgilius comes with interferometers. There are 4 antennas, the same as Spectra on Rafale. It is also advertised with 200 Km with 1deg accuracy.

There is a pretty good video somewhere which explains Virgilius very well. It was an AI-2011/13 presentation from Electronicca.

 

[halloweene]

But it wasn't designed specifically for a plane, a radar, a weapon system etc. Integration of all those systems is the hard part.

Thx for the video btw.

And interformeters cant be placed anyway, you need them to be separated for range but on rigid parts. so availability on a generic EW warfare is doubtful to me. Nervermind, i didn't say Virgilius is crap (in fact i have no idea) but one can't compare a generic suite with a suite fully developped for a distinct fighter,
@Immanuel and you know what is included in upgrades? I don't, but i expect IAF officers to be smart enough...

 

[p2prada]

But it wasn't designed specifically for a plane, a radar, a weapon system etc. Integration of all those systems is the hard part.

It is yet unknown if Mig-29UPG features sensor fusion, but Mig-35 does. And Mig-35 comes with Virgilius, radar and OLS all fused.

 

[halloweene]

There are many things under the term sensor fusion. Most of them are "simply" decluttering and presenting a fused tactical display. Way more complicated is to fuse faint data from several sensors so as to consolidate a track. RAfale do that, about Mig 29 i dunno, but what is known is Mig 35 was rejeced on technical eval from India.

 

[halloweene]

for the same price as the 126 Rafale we can get 200 Mig-35s. This presents a numerical advantage

Depending on availability...

Mig-35 with EL-2052 would have a far better radar which out performs the RBE2 AESA with nearly double the detection range and lot more tracked targets. Rafale's RBE2 AESA is inferior to even standard Block 60 APG-80 and APG-79 from the SH. With OLS UEM and OLS K we would have built in IRST and trumps the FSO in the Rafale.

oh really, any solid argument ?
instead of hot air?

 

[p2prada]

There are many things under the term sensor fusion. Most of them are "simply" decluttering and presenting a fused tactical display. Way more complicated is to fuse faint data from several sensors so as to consolidate a track.

Actually Rafale's sensor fusion is no different from any other modern 4.5th gen aircraft. I suppose SH and F-16 did not have full fledged sensor fusion like the one on Rafale, but Mig-35 did. It combines the data from EW, radar and OLS to provide the pilot with a complete tactical picture, same as Rafale.

The bigger issue is even Rafale is not as capable at data dissemination as we may need in the future, but that's the next level of sensor fusion, networking with other independent assets.

RAfale do that, about Mig 29 i dunno, but what is known is Mig 35 was rejeced on technical eval from India.

Mig-35 and Gripen E never had a chance since the beginning, regardless of how advanced any of these aircraft were with respect to Rafale, EF, SH B2 and Adv F-16 which were serially produced.

IAF had mentioned before that the aircraft had to be serially produced, which we came to know a bit later.

Apart from that, we know for sure that Rafale is a much better fighter overall, in terms of endurance, payload, performance and engines compared to Mig-35. Rafale is much more mature in comparison and has a future growth plan unlike Mig-35. It never had a chance in the technical eval with Rafale and EF in the play.

IAF did not want an aircraft that they had to work on from scratch to make a flight manual and maintenance and training regime. They wanted an aircraft that they could prepare for minimally and go to war as soon as possible. Prototypes never had a chance. And Russian aircraft, no chance at all. It defeated the purpose of the MRCA program in the first place, that is to buy a non-Russian aircraft. IAF officially mentioned that they wanted the Rafale anyway, after L1 was announced.

 

[p2prada]

TRISHUL: Virgilius AESA-Based Internal EW Suite For MiG-29UPG & Tejas Mk2

As far as Spectra EW vs Virgilius EW suite is concerned, Virgilius atleast has some specs in the open forum and it can effectively jam upto 16 aircraft, now unless I see some Spectra specs, as far as I am concerned they are the same. There is no evidence to effectively prove the Spectra is better than the Virgilius. Moreover Mig-29 UPG has it and having it on the Mig-35 would be easy and bring in commonality. Operating the Mig-35 would also bring in billions in savings with engine commonality.

Our Mig-29 fleet is too small for commonality to matter.

And Spectra is far more mature in comparison. Battle tested as well.

 

[Immanuel]

The mig-29 fleet is not too small either, combine 45 for IN and nearly 50 for IAF, we speak of 90+ aircraft, enough for commonality to matter over a long term of usage. Spectra being battle tested has little significance, F-22 isn't battle tested either yet it would eat plenty a fighter for breakfast, lunch & dinner in wartime.

IAF may have never wanted a Russki bird but they still evaluated it so when push comes to shove and when a ton of money can be saved why not go for the Mig-35 while addressing some of its defeciencies, the point is to address the shortage in fighter numerically and 126 Rafale just don't make up for 300+ fighters being thrown out. As for availability Mig-29 have had good availability in the past and Mig-35 shouldn't have a problem meeting this need either. Also considering what China or Pak have and are working on, Mig-35 MKI can more than handle anything they have without breaking the bank.

Also Mig-35 can eventually upgraded with local avionics, jammers, Large Panel Displays, perhaps Stealth Pods.

Rafale is brilliant bird that would certainly give the IAF unparalleled strength in this region, however the costs are too prohibitive, in an Ideal world the cost for 200 Rafales would be 15 billion and I would be a happy camper.

 

[halloweene]

What is "prohibitive" (and noone knows the real costs here, including dnaindia citing one source), is the cost of a real ToT. That includes training of poeple, western quality control norma, industrialization costs (building factories....) a bunch of things i have probs to properly translate. It is not only a "how to " transfer, but a know how and why...

 

[p2prada]

The mig-29 fleet is not too small either, combine 45 for IN and nearly 50 for IAF, we speak of 90+ aircraft, enough for commonality to matter over a long term of usage.

None of them have the same engines. So, there is no engine commonality. Airframe may be similar, but it is not enough to matter.

Spectra being battle tested has little significance, F-22 isn't battle tested either yet it would eat plenty a fighter for breakfast, lunch & dinner in wartime.

Battle tested is of great significance when we are talking about similar systems. F-22 is not similar to any other aircraft, hence there is no real comparison. Once PAKFA comes into the picture, the difference between the two will become more when F-22 is battle tested.

IAF may have never wanted a Russki bird but they still evaluated it so when push comes to shove and when a ton of money can be saved why not go for the Mig-35 while addressing some of its defeciencies, the point is to address the shortage in fighter numerically and 126 Rafale just don't make up for 300+ fighters being thrown out. As for availability Mig-29 have had good availability in the past and Mig-35 shouldn't have a problem meeting this need either. Also considering what China or Pak have and are working on, Mig-35 MKI can more than handle anything they have without breaking the bank.

We can't help it. Current sanctioned strength for MRCA purchase is 6 squadrons + 3 options. Meaning you can't have more than 9 in any case. So, when you have the money, buy the best you can, that was the purpose of the deal. If we wanted cheap aircraft, we could have done what the Swiss or Brazilians did and simply given the L1 bid to either Gripen or Mig-35 without holding a proper technical round, which we didn't.

I get your point of buying more Mig-35s, but that option is not on the table. Our latest buys will be 6 squadrons of LCA, 6+3 squadrons of MRCA to cover up the loss of 300 fighters. 12 squadrons make up 250 aircraft anyway. The options of 3 more Rafale squadrons will push the numbers beyond 300. So, it is all according to plan.

Also Mig-35 can eventually upgraded with local avionics, jammers, Large Panel Displays, perhaps Stealth Pods.

We don't have the time to MKIze the Mig-35. We want an aircraft we can go to war with in as soon as 4 squadrons are ready, roughly within 5 years of induction. With MKIzation of Mig-35, it won't be ready for war until the middle of the next decade. Not happening. It is the same with Gripen too. That's why IAF wanted a readymade aircraft.

Rafale is brilliant bird that would certainly give the IAF unparalleled strength in this region, however the costs are too prohibitive, in an Ideal world the cost for 200 Rafales would be 15 billion and I would be a happy camper.

126 Rafales should come at this cost. Anyway, the price of $25Billion+ seem to be the total lifecycle costs for the entire fleet. Not procurement costs. Unit costs were around $100 Million for the Rafale C with taxes. If we consider the same price for India, then the cost will obviously be $12.6 Billion for 126 aircraft.

Check the Australian cost analysis for the F-35. They think the F-35 will cost them $225 Million/jet for its entire lifetime if they buy at a unit cost of $75 Million. While the $75 Million is not entirely unrealistic, the final costs are very similar to how much the Rafale will cost. Obviously lesser, but similar. That's where the $25B and $28B come from.

 

[Drsomnath999]

TRISHUL: Virgilius AESA-Based Internal EW Suite For MiG-29UPG & Tejas Mk2

As far as Spectra EW vs Virgilius EW suite is concerned, Virgilius atleast has some specs in the open forum and it can effectively jam upto 16 aircraft, now unless I see some Spectra specs, as far as I am concerned they are the same. There is no evidence to effectively prove the Spectra is better than the Virgilius. Moreover Mig-29 UPG has it and having it on the Mig-35 would be easy and bring in commonality. Operating the Mig-35 would also bring in billions in savings with engine commonality.

then PLZ join IAF/french airforce to get your answers .Becoz you wont get answer to these kind of questions on open forums for sure.


Regrading capability of SPECTRA / Virgilius comparision

i would like to stress France were among the 1st very few countries to have such an integrated self protection suite with offensive & defensive
capabilty .
Slowly slowly other countries tried to catch up with this inbuilt intergrated self protection suite & they almost did

The Russians did on SU 35 & others also started to catch up also Virgilius is one of them

nowadays with availability of DRFM jamming tech / interferometric tech the EW suites of today's generation of plane has improved by leaps & bounds

Advantages of SPECTRA in comparision to virgilius on a nut shell (LAYMAN ANALYSIS)

1) It has an advantage of Rafale's better System core processor( CIP ) which is a very important factor for SENSOR FUSION which makes it well integrated with all other sensors of the plane like IRST/ Radar/DDM-NG
.

2) Still nobody knows about SPECTRA active cancellation tech in open forum BTW i got a source which states

RAFALE'S Spectra embodies software based virtual stealth technology
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9s7kezdf51vaij/specs rafale.jpg
(COURTESY-MARC SAMPAIX)

3)SPECTRA is a more mature tech than virgilius tech for sure & it is still evolving into a more lethal system than earliear
for eg -
PLans are there to upgrade SPECTRA with GaN T/R modules which is would effectively enhance it's electronic jamming even further
Rafale News: Future Spectra


Meanwhile,the US airforce are also planning for GaN modules on NGJ pod for EA-18 growler in 2020

"GaN emits five times the radio-frequency power of the previous [gallium-arsenide] technology, a property that results in smaller, more affordable,
more powerful and efficient electronic circuits,"says Joe Smolko, manager of advanced technology programs at Raytheon.
Source- Aviation Week Space & Tech February 17, 2014 PDF


So the french may also be the 1st to have GaN based EW suite in future

CHEERS

 

[Immanuel]

Well if the real life cycle costs is 25-28 billion for 126 Rafales, then its certainly not worth it and more importantly, there is no way Finance ministry will clear this deal, not only because of the massive escalation in cost rather they will clearly say there are cheaper options available. Also, like it the nature of all new governments, they will investigate all major deals done by the last governement and looking at the poor management of this deal with obvious sacrifices being made in TOT, I don't see how this deal will go through this year or next. The Mig-35 aside we can get even 200 SH Internationals at nearly 30% less life cycle ownership costs for roughly the same TOT.

It is obvious we are pretty much screwed in this deal, only way this deal goes through clean is if UPA comes to power again (not happening this time I think) for sheer political reasons the Rafale deal will be opened up and investigated (for corruption) as is the nature of every new Govt. and the cost of the bill going up every few months, Rafale for India seems more like a distant dream.

 

[Immanuel]

With most of the services screaming for more funds and many budget cuts, it seems criminal to me to have these birds at such a high cost.

 

[Drsomnath999]

Replacement of F-16 is a Belgian (other) good opportunity to sell Dassault Rafale

The year 2013 has been complicated activities "Defense" Boeing. The F-18 Super Hornet was not retained by Brazil under the tender FX-2, won by Saab with its Gripen, F-15 Silent Eagle, which nevertheless had every chance of Meanwhile in South Korea was rejected almost at the last minute in favor of the F-35 Lockheed-Martin and it was announced the end of production of transport aircraft C-17.

The outlook for the military branch of the U.S. manufacturer is not very good. Currently, 40% of its turnover is provided by Apache helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft P-8 Poseidon. Regarding combat aircraft, is the great uncertainty. Production of the F-15 SE is expected to continue until 2018 with a Saudi order for 84 copies. As for assembly and F/-18 E/A-18G lines, they could close in 2016 due to lack of contracts ...

Also, the procedure will begin the Belgian Defence to replace its F-16 does not fail to arouse the interest of the American giant. A priori, and although several polical leaders overseas Quiévrain indicated their preference in favor of the F-35 does not necessarily have won the last ...

Last week, the acquistion process was explained to a delegation of Boeing in an interview with members of the Cabinet of the Belgian Minister of Defense Pieter de Crem, and staff.

On this occasion, it was learned that the Belgian Defence will address Request For Information (RFI, or request for information) to 5 builders might be interested in this market. Besides Lockheed Martin and Boeing, already mentioned, we should find in this list for the Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon consortium and Dassault Aviation, which could find an opportunity to sell the Rafale.

The chances of the French manufacturer are not thin. Already, drivers are trained in Belgian fighting France, which portends some synergies ... Then, Dassault already has a subsidiary in Belgium, via SABCA, which is asset if the purchase of new fighter aircraft for Air component should result in economic benefits for Brussels. This will also be the case if one believes Boeing officials.

"They (defense officials) were very clear: they will assess the capacity of competitors and industrial participation in partnerships (with Belgian companies) will be a really important factor," he told Jeff Kohler, Executive Vice President Boeing for development and strategy.

And obviously, the American manufacturer already sharpening its arguments. "We have the ability to provide a range of compensation," whether in the aeronautical or space domain or in network technologies, maintenance, or services, such as logistics, "argued Chris Raymond, a another of its vice-presidents.

"There are some countries with a willingness to buy U.S. whatever the price, whatever the performance of the aircraft" had complained last week, Eric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, about F -35. To prove its business contrary! After all, in the past, the Belgian Air componsante is a former client of the French manufacturer, including the Mirage V.

https://translate.google.co.in/tran...on-pour-dassault-de-vendre-le-rafale/&act=url

 

[Immanuel]

Belgium will not buy the Rafale, they keep Unkil' Nukes in Kleine Brogel and hence they will most likely go for F-35. Also SABCA/Sonata have had experience working with LM licence manufacturing F-16s so F-35 will be the obvious choice for them.

 

[p2prada]

So the french may also be the 1st to have GaN based EW suite in future

CHEERS

We may not get this tech though. Even the French are expected to get it in 2020.

The Russians or the Swedish may be the first to get GaN based radars and EW suite before 2018.

Well if the real life cycle costs is 25-28 billion for 126 Rafales, then its certainly not worth it and more importantly, there is no way Finance ministry will clear this deal, not only because of the massive escalation in cost rather they will clearly say there are cheaper options available. Also, like it the nature of all new governments, they will investigate all major deals done by the last governement and looking at the poor management of this deal with obvious sacrifices being made in TOT, I don't see how this deal will go through this year or next. The Mig-35 aside we can get even 200 SH Internationals at nearly 30% less life cycle ownership costs for roughly the same TOT.

$28 Billion over 40 years should be acceptable price for any govt serious in defending their airspace.

 

[halloweene]

The Russians or the Swedish may be the first to get GaN based radars and EW suite before 2018.

Selex Raven radar is GaAs based. Gripen NG EW suite will be using GaN, that is right. But not flying this year...

 

[halloweene]

As for F-18 and Rafale data fusion, compare these sentences from an independant test pilot who flew both types :

When I tested in flight the F/A-18F Super Hornet Block II in 2012, my biggest criticism was as much the cockpit - Man-Machine-Interface (MMI), the displays, the data fusion (fundamental to gaining the upper hand in net centric warfare) - as the absence of an integrated IRST

With :

PCWRITE. This combination of "letters" appears in the lower left corner of the HLD - Head Level Display, giving a real-time and instant confirmation of which sensors are signaling at that moment. Each letter representing either the RBE2 AESA radar, the Infrared / Laser / TV Front-Sector Optronics (FSO), the internal system of electronic warfare SPECTRA EW, IFF (identification friend-or-foe), are merged into a unified and clear visual symbolism directly on the SA display (situational awareness), and that means keeping the pilot in the situational loop. Rarely (not witnessed at any time during our evaluations) would the pilot ever be unaware of the environment within the 360º "bubble" surrounding the aircraft.

 

[Immanuel]

We may not get this tech though. Even the French are expected to get it in 2020.

The Russians or the Swedish may be the first to get GaN based radars and EW suite before 2018.



$28 Billion over 40 years should be acceptable price for any govt serious in defending their airspace.

28 Billion over 40 years is 222 million a plane for 126 fighters??? sorry this is not acceptable by any standards, even the Dutch during their evaluation of the Rafale had a similar figure of around 240 million per plane over 40 years for a smaller order, we're getting the same costs even while having local manufacture and some basic TOT. I don't buy this buttery BS. 28 billion should the life cycle costs of 200 fighters and that would be acceptable but the same number for just a 126 fighters is criminal.

 

[p2prada]

28 Billion over 40 years is 222 million a plane for 126 fighters??? sorry this is not acceptable by any standards, even the Dutch during their evaluation of the Rafale had a similar figure of around 240 million per plane over 40 years for a smaller order, we're getting the same costs even while having local manufacture and some basic TOT. I don't buy this buttery BS. 28 billion should the life cycle costs of 200 fighters and that would be acceptable but the same number for just a 126 fighters is criminal.

That's quite acceptable actually. MoD is not looking at your standards.