Know Your 'Rafale'

Drsomnath999

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Ok i am quoting
Iain Stewart · University of the West of Scotland 's comment made on this

The Rafale As Canada?s Next Fighter ? Part 3 | Ottawa Citizen

This article is so chock full of inaccuracies and glossing over issues that I don't even know where to begin. For one it falls into the trap of "Spectra" being some sort of mysterious and world changing technology attached to it. Spectra is nothing more than a buzzname given to the standard ECM suite that every modern fighter has, in some cases even better than "Spectra." The comment of it giving CAPTOR "headaches" is so mired in falsity that it beggers belief. Just who's side are you going to listen to? You completely fail to mention that it was DASSAULT that claimed that, just as the Eurofighter Consortium then mentioned that despite carrying heavier payloads, Typhoon had outperformed the Rafale in "every area." Thats before we even get to how the F-35 beats out the Rafale in an unthinkable number of ways when it comes to ECM, radar and tracking ability. The AN-APG 81 or a CAPTOR-E would cut through this "Spectra" like butter on account of Rafale's weak powerplant rating. It has a very low capability to surge its systems like other platforms.

You can't just cherrypick industry sources and then not mention who from to try and fool people.

Furthermore, are you not going to mention Rafale's weak radar? Its tiny radar aperture that only allows for 50 degrees of radar traverse? Compared to CAPTOR-E that has a 120 degrees traverse AND a stronger radar to boot? Not going to mention about the Rafale's complete lack of a helmet mounted sight and the Rafale's extremely low service ceiling (Typhoon can go to 70,000 feet compared to Rafale's 55,000) and your insistence of going "But it did this in tests!" to try and justify its weak abilities when used in operation by comparison to other leading aircraft.

But here's the entire crux of it. Rafale is a great aircraft. It is definitely among the top tiers and if Canada wants a top tier it should certainly be among the contenders. But compared especially to Typhoon, the Rafale falls short of ability and yet costs EVEN MORE. Look at India, where the cost of Rafale was shown to have increased 100% lately after Dassault revealed its true intentions, costing in the end far more than Typhoons would have.

If Canada wants to be properly future proofed for a price, then Typhoon is their best choice. If they don't want to spend to top tier level, Gripen. But the Rafale currently exists in a strange area of costing more to get less in the end.
1)
Spectra is nothing more than a buzzname given to the standard ECM suite that every modern fighter has, in some cases even better than "Spectra."
oh yes still till this date now Typhoon failed to have an ECM suite comparable to it :lol:


2)
You completely fail to mention that it was DASSAULT that claimed that, just as the Eurofighter Consortium then mentioned that despite carrying heavier payloads, Typhoon had outperformed the Rafale in "every area.
GEEZ!!

really & i think SWISS were lying then about rafale's capabilty in their evaluation report in comparision with typhoon & gripen

& why in every evaluations the evaluators dont think the same way like you think???

3)
before we even get to how the F-35 beats out the Rafale in an unthinkable number of ways when it comes to ECM, radar and tracking ability.
but excuse me
before that you should know how F35's radar's is functioning in evaluation trials report
The radar performs poorly or not at all.
Another common complaint involved the failure of the radar system.

"The radar performance shortfalls ranged from the radar being completely inoperative on two sorties to failing to display targets on one sortie, inexplicably dropping targets on another sortie, and taking excessive time to develop a track on near co-speed targets on yet another sortie," according to the report.
source
F-35 Report Warns of Visibility Risks, Other Dangers | Defense News | defensenews.com

regarding DASS

The F-35 confuses itself


To defend against increasingly sophisticated Russian- and Chinese-made air defenses, the JSF includes a cluster of high-tech cameras and sensors able to detect incoming missiles—and automatically deploy heat-generating flares or radar-foiling chaff to spoof the enemy guidance.

But the so-called "Distributed Aperture System" doesn't work. "The DAS has displayed a high false alarm rate for missile detections during ownship and formation flare testing," the testing report reveals. Basically, the system cannot tell the difference between an enemy missile and one of the F-35's own hot flares.

Imagine the feedback loop that could result. An F-35's DAS detects an incoming missile and pops flares. DAS then mistakes those flares for another missile and pops more flares, then still more flares to spoof them. So on and so on until the F-35 runs out of countermeasures "¦ and is defenseless.
Source
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/2ef94297330d


4)
Furthermore, are you not going to mention Rafale's weak radar? Its tiny radar aperture that only allows for 50 degrees of radar traverse? Compared to CAPTOR-E that has a 120 degrees traverse AND a stronger radar to boot?
oh yes why not??
but sir Rafale's radar is already operational & we know quite a lot about's it's performance & capabilties but what about Captor-E aesa
radar capabilties which is still to be operationalized & we still yet to know about it's capabilties in realtime (ie under .intense electronic jamming environment & highly senstive & powerful RWR of it's adversary planes )
Meanwhile french are testing those RBE 2 aesa radar against the rafale's own spectra system ( result still classified BTW )

just pen & paper marketing PR sources from Jon Lake like authors wont be enough to convince anyone

BTW did u bother to read properly what mr yves pagot had stated about GaN capabililties & conformal arrays Rafale plans to have in future , What would be it's effect in radar's power & detection range capabilty do you have any idea ??


5)
Not going to mention about the Rafale's complete lack of a helmet mounted sight and the Rafale's extremely low service ceiling (Typhoon can go to 70,000 feet compared to Rafale's 55,000) and your insistence of going "But it did this in tests!" to try and justify its weak abilities when used in operation by comparison to other leading aircraft.
As if Rafale cant have HMD at all :lol:
the fact is french dont give priority to HMD much but there are various HMD avaliable for Rafale .
any customer on it's requirement can have HMD so no big deal at all

what effect would have a higher ceiling have in combat apart from generating slightly longer Kinematic range of BVRAAMs but it doent increase it's kill probabilty of BVraam missile .

6)
But compared especially to Typhoon, the Rafale falls short of ability and yet costs EVEN MORE. Look at India, where the cost of Rafale was shown to have increased 100% lately after Dassault revealed its true intentions, costing in the end far more than Typhoons would have.
i hate this word to use but i cant find any better word to express my feelings

BLAAAAHHHHHH

WTF Rafale costs more than typhoon
tell u what even the bull would sue me in court if i compare your post with it's sh!t :rofl:

Have u ever bother to read the real figures about Euros & indian currency exchange rates at the moment now . if that would be applied to typhoon it can even cost more than rafale and thats not all we have to fund many of it's capabilties like CFTs & TVCs & Air to ground capabilties in future


7)
If Canada wants to be properly future proofed for a price, then Typhoon is their best choice. If they don't want to spend to top tier level, Gripen. But the Rafale currently exists in a strange area of costing more to get less in the end
Hmm
Ok atleast 1 thing you are right i.e about gripen but about the bolded part

You seriously believe the Rafale currently exists in a strange area of costing more to get less in the end

but actually in reality it's the opposite which u have posted


P.S I could have posted the same thing there also but i dont want to have flame baiting there


CHEERS
 

Jagdish58

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India seals Rafale jet deal with French firm | The Indian Express

At last somthing to cheer about :thumb::wave: UPA 2

In the last days of its tenure, the UPA-II government has reached the crucial "work share agreement" with French firm Dassault for supply of 126 Rafale fighter jets to India. While a deal is expected to be signed only later this year, it is learnt that the two sides have agreed on the pact to operationalise the multi-billion dollar pact.

This is being seen as a "major development", since the two sides have agreed on one of the major pacts to implement the deal after almost two years of zeroing in on the French defence major. The two sides are also working on an agreement for a sovereign guarantee that Dassault will supply, service and maintain the Rafales over the next 40 years.

Overruling concerns raised by Dassault on Hindustan Aeronotics Limited as a partner, it has been decided that HAL will carry out 70 per cent of the work on the 108 aircrafts made in India. The remaining 30 per cent will be done by Dassault. The first batch of 18 MMRCA planes will be fully manufactured in France and will be brought to India in "fly-away" condition.

While Indian officials confirmed the development on Monday here, the head of French defence procurement agency Laurent Collet-Billon had indicated this a radio station in France (Europe1) a couple of weeks ago.

On February 19, Collet-Billon had said, "This phase of identifying partners has been completed, so there is an agreement between Dassault and its chief Indian industrial partner, HAL."
 

Immanuel

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Workshare agreement has little meaning, the deal itself is not signed and as of now looking at the 70% is just 10% over the RFP requirement of 60% and there goes all the Dassault BS promises of full-TOT.

This deal will get more expensive by the time the next Govt. comes to power and finds money for it.
 

p2prada

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Workshare agreement has little meaning, the deal itself is not signed and as of now looking at the 70% is just 10% over the RFP requirement of 60% and there goes all the Dassault BS promises of full-TOT.

This deal will get more expensive by the time the next Govt. comes to power and finds money for it.
Workshare agreement directly has nothing to do with ToT that will be transferred.
 

Defencearts

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All this delay for signing the contract was due to workshare issues, isn't it?

Now that it is solved, I believe the worst is over, or not. Fingers crossed. Regardless of next government, I think it has to be signed before the end of this year. As someone mentioned above, that people who wants the Rafale is due to its curves, I am one of them. lol

Canada is also considering buying the Rafale!
 

p2prada

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All this delay for signing the contract was due to workshare issues, isn't it?

Now that it is solved, I believe the worst is over, or not. Fingers crossed. Regardless of next government, I think it has to be signed before the end of this year. As someone mentioned above, that people who wants the Rafale is due to its curves, I am one of them. lol

Canada is also considering buying the Rafale!
It may possibly be signed by this year end, as in December, not March.
 

halloweene

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Well few hints from E. Trappier annual conference this morning.
- M2K modernization include new radar, capability to shoot mica, new EW suite and new Navigation and Attack systm. No more details.
- About MMRCA (answering my question btw ;)) . Yes workshare is established between HAL and Dassault. There will be two supply chain, and the industrial meccano is built in evrey details, all companies etc. etc. identified and in contact. Both French and Indian ministires were told so. (Reading between lines, technical contracts are wrapped up).
"OFF" information : Dassault isn't concerned by indian elections as both ruling and opposition parties agree on MMRCA.
 

halloweene

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All this delay for signing the contract was due to workshare issues, isn't it?

Now that it is solved, I believe the worst is over, or not. Fingers crossed. Regardless of next government, I think it has to be signed before the end of this year. As someone mentioned above, that people who wants the Rafale is due to its curves, I am one of them. lol

Canada is also considering buying the Rafale!
In fact it was about building the industrial supply chains, evaluating the capability of each partner (subcontractors) to absorb ToT, at which speed so as to know on which Rafale (number "n") they'd be able to supply spare parts (and therefore the ramping up of indigenous parts) etc.
About Canada, they are still officially commmited to F-35, so there is no negociations yet until their commitees decide to open up (or not) a competition after their RFIs. Dassault seems quite confident about the qualities of their plane if there was a real competition.
 

Neil

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@halloweene sir...:; is there any chance in future that some of rafale components might be sourced from India..since the production costs are much less - it can help France bring down the cost..!!
 

halloweene

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@halloweene sir...:; is there any chance in future that some of rafale components might be sourced from India..since the production costs are much less - it can help France bring down the cost..!!
I have absolutely no idea, i guess it also depends on potential export orders in asian zone like malaysia.
 

mattster

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@Immanuel With the squadron strength for IAF depliting fast, I would have gone for upgraded Mig-29's K' series that Indian Navy is getting [I mean the similar configuration], that is also a very good option... we could easily had 2 Mig29's at the cost of one Rafale if not more... This could have filled the numbers for IAF very quickly... along with that we could accelerated the LCA production too...

Indians got fooled easily that just by buying the Rafale's we will be able to get the full TOT and hense bridge the technology gap easily... that was never to happen...
Some of you guys are underestimating the IAF people who selected the Rafale aircraft.
The IAF was never going to buy the upgraded MIG-29 with its outdated electronics.

The fact of the matter is that there are only 2 guys that can sell you a state of the art fighter with the latest engine, electronics, radars, and sensor technology. Those 2 guys are the Americans or the Europeans. Its not all about airframe technology anymore.

The Russians are falling behind. Plus.....given this stupid American habit of changing their rules and defense export policy based on which administration is in office - you can hardly blame the IAF top brass for not wanting to be saddled with a state-of-art American fighter that is prone to sanctions. In that sense, I have to say that the French have been a much more reliable partner.

Coming back to this deal......The Russians were never in it to begin with. The MIG-29K was a non-starter to begin with.
So it might be fine for the navy to load an aircraft carrier with MIG-29-K series, but it would not have served the need of a frontline fighter to protect your country.

AS for this TOT stuff......lets just face the facts - nobody is going to share their secret sauce with you. All the Russians are doing is sending over knocked down kits of the Su30MKI that the Indians assemble at HAL, and throw in some of their own electronics. They may also manufacture some body panels, gear, etc in India. If you want to live in a dream world......you can call this TOT. At best it creates some jobs and some work for smaller Indians companies making sub-assemblies. Probably the total cost of every SU30MKI will be lower, if it was manufactured in fly-away condition in Russia rather than shipping parts to HAL.

The Offset Clause creates a conundrum for a foreign company bidding in India.....they basically have to make promises and guarantees that they can't keep.
Even the IAF guys don't trust HAL......then how do you expect the foreign manufacturer to trust HAL, and be fully responsible for what comes out from the HAL line.
 
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