Know Your 'Rafale'

[halloweene]

Ther's one thing you miss, MK-1 is made to be a fighter aircraft, not a trainer originally. Requirements are way different. You can make a light attack/fighteraircraft from a LIFT, the reverse is much more difficult. Simply, they require more from pilots.

 

[Punya Pratap]

I dont think India is going to export Tejas to any country through which Pakistan can study Tejas...Afghanistan after draw dawn will be facing a resurgent Taliban and dont be surprised they manage to wrest control over it again...then what?? Tejas will be in Pakistani hands!!

 

[Punya Pratap]

@ Halloweene what is your take on the current situation regarding Rafale and about this deal's future knowing well that Defense Minister has stated in the parliament that Tejas will replace both Mig 21 & Mig 27, about 300 odd fighters. What then do you think Rafale will replace?? Jags or much later Mirages or Mig 29's but dont you think that implies that Rafale will be further delayed??

 

[Immanuel]

Ther's one thing you miss, MK-1 is made to be a fighter aircraft, not a trainer originally. Requirements are way different. You can make a light attack/fighteraircraft from a LIFT, the reverse is much more difficult. Simply, they require more from pilots.

It shouldn't be a problem considering both IAF and IN will have two seat trainer versions. LCA's program approach is very holistic and little has to be done to ensure MK-1 is a great LIFT trainer, once the full envelope is opened up LCA would easily be the best LIFT trainer out there. The range is good, manueverability and handling is better than most 4th fighters including F-16s, Mirages and Gripens, good platform to train pilots on precision strikes, A2A (BVR/WVR), dogfights, formation flying, SEAD, DEAD, Carrier take off and landings, Night flying, mid air refueling, Anti ship tactics etc.

 

[halloweene]

Its not about Tejas capabilities and weapon systems. But aerodynamically, a LIFT must be friendlier to pilots etc. In fact ideally, you need a plane that will bring apprentices to make mistakes, but will forgive them. Hard to explain.

 

[halloweene]

just wrote a piece about DDM NG btw, had to cut parts but still some details that may interest you
Google Translate

 

[gadeshi]

There were the cases when Mirage F1 caried Kh-29L/T missiles.
It was a squadron of Iraqui F1s during Iran-Iraqui war.
So, I don't see any difficulties except political and commercial ones.

BTW, French always have poor missiles, AA and AF both. So, it will be a good idea to integrate Russian missiles into Rafale weapons list either.

 

[Kshatriya87]

How many Rafales do we have in IAF and Indian Navy?

 

[Twinblade]

How many Rafales do we have in IAF and Indian Navy?

We have 14 squadrons of Rafale operational with the Indian Navy and Air Force combined. Around 8 aircraft have been lost to attrition and 6 had to be scavenged for the lack of spares.

 

[Sea Eagle]

^^ :ranger: Those idiot -----s are rejoicing

 

[Kshatriya87]

We have 14 squadrons of Rafale operational with the Indian Navy and Air Force combined. Around 8 aircraft have been lost to attrition and 6 had to be scavenged for the lack of spares.

If I am not mistaken, 1 squadron has 21 aircrafts right?

Also, can you please reply on my thread below? I want to know how many aircrafts do we have in total currently in service with IAF and Indian Navy.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/58630-number-fighter-aircrafts.html

 

[halloweene]

BTW, French always have poor missiles, AA and AF both. So, it will be a good idea to integrate Russian missiles into Rafale weapons list either.

Develop please

 

[sayareakd]

wonder if Gujrati Ambani can save, if NDA comes to power with Modi from Gujrat, it will be interesting to see what happen then.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

BTW, French always have poor missiles, AA and AF both. So, it will be a good idea to integrate Russian missiles into Rafale weapons list either.

@p2prada Is the above true ? What I knew is exactly the reverse,

 

[halloweene]

is 93% successful shots during trials (240 shots) for mica enough to convince you?

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada Is the above true ? What I knew is exactly the reverse,

Depends on the requirement. The west doesn't have anything good in comparison to Russia in ARMs like the KH-31. Then we can obviously add Brahmos-M, which France cannot provide anyway.

Others have their analogues in France and we don't really need them on Rafale. We will most definitely order MBDA air to air missiles rather than Russian.

We opted for KH-35 over Harpoon or Exocet for LCA, so this is an option as well.

So, I can only think of Brahmos-M, KH-31 and KH-35. With the first one guaranteed, the second a very high possibility and the third being least likely, since there are other options coming up as well, like Taurus AShM version.

RBE-2AA is nowhere good enough for K-100, so this missile may not see itself on Rafale.

 

[gadeshi]

@halloweene, @TrueSpirit1:
It always depends on what to compare with

Matra S530 is complete shit comparable to AIM-7F or M and very liquid shit comparable to even R-27R (we don't even speak about ER/AE).
Magic-II is a shit comparable to AIM-9 L/M and not the par to R-60 (don't speaking about R-60M).

MICA is a compromise between SR and MR AAMs requirements. A successful one, but still a compromise.
As a SRAAM it is on par (according to advertisement, not the real action though) with early R-73RMD-1, but not with R-73RMD-2(R-74) and rather inferior to AIM-9X in maneurability and KP rate due to controversal TV design and grosser weight. We still need to wait to compare it to R-74M (RVV-MD), but even now is clear that MICA will loose. It can compete only with Python series.
As a MRAAM MICA is a complete shit due to miserable range (50-60km max which causes effective energetic range less than 20km), low energetic capacity and small warhead. This is even more clear comparable to R-77 (80km full and 40-45 km effective range). And then let us compare it to R-77M (RVV-SD) and AIM-120C7 (110km and 100km full and 50-60km effective range) and more heavy warhead. And than compare it to Item 180 (RVV-SD late) and AIM-120D (180km full and 90-100km effective range)...

AS missiles are the same. Even more worth. AS-30 has less range, less warhead and speed comparable to Kh-29. Has no TV/IR seekers.
Missiles like AGM-65 or Kh-25/27 are completely absent.
ARMs are absent.
Only AM-39 is on par with early AGM-84, but not late. It has twice shorter range and accuracy comparable to late AGM-84 and only the warhead is bigger and heavier. The same result is for Kh-35. Kh-35U/UD is even more rangy than late Harpoon (280KM) and much more accurate. And Russians have never forgot their big warheads to solve their problems in a pretty radical way
French have no equivalent for Kh-31A and of course, AD (4M on 240KM).

And of course, French don't have any equivalent for Kalibr/Club and AGM-84E (SLAM-ER) long rangers and Onyx/Yakhont/BrahMos supersonics.

Any more things to explain and develop?

 

[halloweene]

Oops, are you waking up from hiberbation? Matra R (not S) 530 is 30 years old missile, Magic II retired on Rafale (and still a good self defence missile).
AS 30 L also retired etc. We do not talk about AS30, but SBU (you know, SBU 54, 64...)
There's a reported shot of MICA at 67 Kms btw. ROCAF Dassault Mirage 2000-5Di/Ei Real data are classified.

AIM 120 has 120 Kms range now? i guess you mean dropped from a space shuttle in order to hit a ground target?

Instead of shouting shit permanently, you shoud give data about the "controversial TV design", i need a good laugh. (and demosntrate larger Pk for sidewinder)



Ok, i'll stop here, but maybe you should take some infos, do you know the words METEOR and MICA NG for ex?

And of course we have only ASMP/A, an air to ground RAMJET missile...

 

[Sea Eagle]

Oops, are you waking up from hiberbation? Matra R (not S) 530 is 30 years old missile, Magic II retired on Rafale (and still a good self defence missile).
AS 30 L also retired etc. We do not talk about AS30, but SBU (you know, SBU 54, 64...)
There's a reported shot of MICA at 67 Kms btw. ROCAF Dassault Mirage 2000-5Di/Ei Real data are classified.

AIM 120 has 120 Kms range now? i guess you mean dropped from a space shuttle in order to hit a ground target?

Instead of shouting shit permanently, you shoud give data about the "controversial TV design", i need a good laugh. (and demosntrate larger Pk for sidewinder)



Ok, i'll stop here, but maybe you should take some infos, do you know the words METEOR and MICA NG for ex?

And of course we have only ASMP/A, an air to ground RAMJET missile...

Lets cut it short.. Some systems that rafael will need to carry in Indian service:
1. R-73 ( And even possibly python 5)
2. Kh-31P
3. Astra BVRAAM
4. Kh-35 or Sea Eagle
5. DRDO developed ARM
6. Sudarshan LGB
7. Possibly AWACS killer missile
8. And Brahmos M

 

[gadeshi]

@halloweene,
1 - S (Super) 530 was named to compare the past gen missiles alongside to R-27 and AIM-7 (where are your eyes?). It depicts my sentance of French had poor missiles in the past. As well as Magic-II and AS-30.
2 - AASM is not a missile, but GBU with rocket booster. It cannot substitute tactical missiles in any way, because its best range can be achieved while launch from the medium to high altitudes, which makes it useless in modern AD environment.
3 - 67 km on non-maneuvering and defenceless target is miserably small for now (and doesn't differ much from 60km as I've said). If you'll fire it to hit a fighter, it's effective range falls to less than 30km (~20-25) due to energy shortage.
4 - AIM-120 has 100km full and about 45-50 effective range for now (AIM-120C-7).
5 - As for PKs for AIM-9X and MICA we have only advertisement data from the official sites of Ratheon and MBDA. MBDA claims 93% of successful launches, Ratheon claims of 98.5%. None of them are realistic, especially on maneuvering target, but the numbers are so.
There are videos from AIM-9X tests where it shoots down maneuvering QF-4 which fires flares in the process (you can Google for them yourself).
The only AIM-9X real drawback is its huge price.